Right to Repair - A Discussion

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Considering Apple's tireless efforts to kill the Right to Repair movement, I'd say that seats them firmly into the "evil" category.


I'll take an evil American corporation over an evil Chinese spy front which doubles down with obnoxious self-righteousness any day.

Besides, there's no such right in the Constitution. You can argue that it's a more equitable market setup, but the idea that it's an *inherent right* is doing a bad job of tacking social justice ideas onto something ludicrously petty. It's like proposing a right to high quality toilet paper or something.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
I'll take an evil American corporation over an evil Chinese spy front which doubles down with obnoxious self-righteousness any day.

Besides, there's no such right in the Constitution. You can argue that it's a more equitable market setup, but the idea that it's an *inherent right* is doing a bad job of tacking social justice ideas onto something ludicrously petty. It's like proposing a right to high quality toilet paper or something.
Proponents of the Right to Repair consider it a natural extension of the Rights to Property and Liberty, which are bolstered in about a dozen places in the constitution. Essentially, your right to use your own property as you please and your liberty to do so are infringed if the company intentionally sabotages their products or causes them to self-destruct if you use them in accord with your own wishes instead of theirs.

I don't entirely agree with them but there is a certain logic to it.
 

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
Moderator
Staff Member
Founder
Obozny
The problem with there being a right to repair is that the logic gets really, really dubious the second you step away from the narrow market of consumer electronics, as does the "it's mine, so I can do what I want with it and those desires must be facilitated by the manufacturer" argument.

For example, cars. IIRC it's not possible to buy third party parts for a lot of high end cars, you have to source replacements from the manufacturer because they're too complicated and expensive for third parties to bother with. If you have an inherent right to repair that car and the manufacturer is not legally allowed to design it's products in a way that hinders that right, are they just not allowed to use their own transmission designs and they have to use something more common?

The right to repair movement also tends to ignore the fact that there's already a counter to such tactics, namely market competition. If Apple's products are not sufficiently consumer friendly, then don't buy one, buy an android phone or something until apple is forced to respond. If you knowingly buy a product with certain design elements, that's on you, you can't go around trying to use the legal system to force the company to redesign it's products to your taste (and Apple's policy regarding repairs is well known, you can't plead ignorance).
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
At the end of the day, “right to repair” is at best an ideological position similar to open source software, only they’re trying to use government authority to forcibly compel acceptance of their ideas rather than actually compete in the marketplace of ideas. Given that attempts at highly modular phones have flopped versus the consumer preference for thin and waterproof devices, it’s pretty clear that they’re going this route because the public simply isn’t buying what they’re selling. As such, presenting their ideological preferences as “rights” is a generally bad faith attempt to sidestep that entire discussion.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
The problem with there being a right to repair is that the logic gets really, really dubious the second you step away from the narrow market of consumer electronics, as does the "it's mine, so I can do what I want with it and those desires must be facilitated by the manufacturer" argument.

This is the part they’re trying to preempt discussion of by falsely framing it as a “right”.

The right to repair movement also tends to ignore the fact that there's already a counter to such tactics, namely market competition.

Market competition doesn’t “work” for repair-ists because the vast, overwhelming majority of consumers care about features which are best achieved by cutting out easy repairability. So what we really have here is a tiny, screaming minority of ideological die-yards trying to get the government to step in and take away features that people actually want for a forced feature that very few people benefit from and even fewer actually want.
 

Robovski

Well-known member
There is a world of difference between I can't change the battery in my phone because it was never meant to be replaced and I can't fix my combine harvester because John Deere says it has to be done in their shop or the harvester stops working.
 

ParadiseLost

Well-known member
At the end of the day, “right to repair” is at best an ideological position similar to open source software, only they’re trying to use government authority to forcibly compel acceptance of their ideas rather than actually compete in the marketplace of ideas. Given that attempts at highly modular phones have flopped versus the consumer preference for thin and waterproof devices, it’s pretty clear that they’re going this route because the public simply isn’t buying what they’re selling. As such, presenting their ideological preferences as “rights” is a generally bad faith attempt to sidestep that entire discussion.

Holy shit, I haven't heard a hot-take this bad in a long time.

The right-to-repair movement has nothing to do with modularity or open source software. Its a completely different idea.

Market competition doesn’t “work” for repair-ists because the vast, overwhelming majority of consumers care about features which are best achieved by cutting out easy repairability. So what we really have here is a tiny, screaming minority of ideological die-yards trying to get the government to step in and take away features that people actually want for a forced feature that very few people benefit from and even fewer actually want.

Again, a shockingly foolish hot-take from someone who usually sounds very well educated. And I'm not insulting you lightly, I'm genuinely surprised that someone with your level of education could say something this uninformed.

For one, the right-to-repair isn't about taking any features away from anyone.

Its usually primarily about getting rid of two things:

1) Built-in "Bricking": IE, when a company intentionally booby traps a product to make it break if a repair is attempted. Some HP Printers, for example, were programmed to automatically brick themselves if non HP ink was used; there was no consumer function there, HP just wanted to force consumers to buy their overpriced ink.

2) Forced into overpriced repair contracts.

A great example is McDonalds, where I worked part time in college. A lot of people don't realize this, but McDonalds is very predatory towards their franchisers - despite McDonalds franchises over all being profitable and easily beating the profitability of a Wendy's or Burger King (19% profit margin on average vs 6% and 1%, respectively), McDonalds owners generally have the lowest opinion of corporate out of any franchise.

A lot of this is... well, let me use the infamous McDonalds Ice Cream machine as an example. I'm about to tell you the secret of why they are always broken. Its because McDonalds has a deal with the manufacturer that causes the repair cost to be insanely high, essentially highway robbery high.

Which means McDonalds owners tend to try to put off the repair cost as long as possible, unless ice cream happens to be extremely popular at their location.

The secret menu reveals a business model that goes beyond a right-to-repair issue, O’Sullivan argues. It represents, as he describes it, nothing short of a milkshake shakedown: Sell franchisees a complicated and fragile machine. Prevent them from figuring out why it constantly breaks. Take a cut of the distributors’ profit from the repairs. “It’s a huge money maker to have a customer that’s purposefully, intentionally blind and unable to make very fundamental changes to their own equipment,” O’Sullivan says. And McDonald’s presides over all of it, he says, insisting on loyalty to its longtime supplier. (Resist the McDonald’s monarchy on decisions like equipment, and the corporation can end a restaurant’s lease on the literal ground beneath it, which McDonald's owns under its franchise agreement.)



And if you argue that this isn't a problem, you are flat out denying an ancient principle of economics by committing the broken windows fallacy. Fundamentally, the right-to-repair is an issue of preventing an artificial replacing of repair cost. Economically speaking, there is little effective difference between a company causing a phone to be automatically bricked upon a necessary repair being attempted and a company intentionally breaking the phone themselves so the customer has to buy a new one. Economists have known that increasing the amount of repairs doesn't generate true economic growth for over 150 years at this point.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
There is a world of difference between I can't change the battery in my phone because it was never meant to be replaced and I can't fix my combine harvester because John Deere says it has to be done in their shop or the harvester stops working.
This. People are ignoring the distinction between positive and negative rights.

Most people recognize the right to life, f'rex. But even if they have a right to life, if I see somebody in a burning building and do not save them, I'm not liable. At worst I might be considered a complete jerk. On the other hand, if I'm the one who lit the building on fire, that's just a wee bit different and the law will have something to say to me about the person who burned to death.

Right to Repair is concerned with the latter. In the car analogy, it is not concerned with the auto manufacturer making a car using their own design for the transmission, nor whether or not third parties are currently making a replacement transmission. It's concerned with the car manufacturer installing a chipset that bricks the car if it detects the hood was ever opened by a non-company-registered mechanic. Preventing companies from actively sabotaging repair is the concern, not forcing companies to facilitate repair.

As I said, I don't entirely agree with the argument, chiefly because the line between "harder to repair because of design decisions" and "harder to repair because they're sabotaging repair" is extremely fuzzy and full of edge cases. I can clearly see, f'rex, Apple distributing a patch that slows down older phones to force people to change is on the wrong side, but integrating the battery to make it slimmer, not so much.

However people are seriously strawmanning it in this thread and I find that a touch unreasonable.
 

ParadiseLost

Well-known member
I can clearly see, f'rex, Apple distributing a patch that slows down older phones to force people to change is on the wrong side,

That actually has a legit explanation.

Apple hardware and software integration runs really deep. Say you have an IPhone 7, 8, and X. The OS that comes out with the IPhone 7 is custom built for it. But as the 8 and X comes out, new updates and OSes aren't customized for the 7, but for the 8 and X.

Since the hardware and software are so heavily integrated, the performance on the 7 naturally goes down as the newer OSes don't mesh as well with the hardware come out.

That is essentially the problem.

Of course, Apple should arguably have a lot more disclosure about this, but if it was widely known, then people would probably demand that Apple switch to developing and updating each phones OS separately, which would likely greatly increase support/programming costs, something they absolutely don't want.
 

Emperor Tippy

Merchant of Death
Super Moderator
Staff Member
Founder
Should companies be allowed to lock you into contracts as a condition of purchase that you can't repair/have a third party repair the product? No, not really.

If someone owns something then they should be allowed to do what they want with it.

Should companies be required to create their products in such a way that repair is viable for the purchaser/a third party? No, companies have zero obligation to make their products repaidable. If you don't like it then don't buy the product.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
That actually has a legit explanation.

Apple hardware and software integration runs really deep. Say you have an IPhone 7, 8, and X. The OS that comes out with the IPhone 7 is custom built for it. But as the 8 and X comes out, new updates and OSes aren't customized for the 7, but for the 8 and X.

Since the hardware and software are so heavily integrated, the performance on the 7 naturally goes down as the newer OSes don't mesh as well with the hardware come out.

That is essentially the problem.

Of course, Apple should arguably have a lot more disclosure about this, but if it was widely known, then people would probably demand that Apple switch to developing and updating each phones OS separately, which would likely greatly increase support/programming costs, something they absolutely don't want.
This utterly fails any sanity test. If the new OS for the iPhone 8 will not run well on the iPhone 7, why automatically upgrade iPhone 7s to it?
 

ParadiseLost

Well-known member
This utterly fails any sanity test. If the new OS for the iPhone 8 will not run well on the iPhone 7, why automatically upgrade iPhone 7s to it?

New features, primarily, and the fact that Apple OS's tend to lose support from App Developers a lot faster than Android.

And the fact that, as I said, Apple doesn't really want to be open about the issues related to this because people will demand they split OS development up and create optimized OS's for every set of hardware, which would greatly increase costs.

Basically, its still kinda awful, but there is actually a reason for it - its not just arbitrary updates to slow the phone down.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
There was an issue with some if the most expensive things Apple makes, that Apple repair places would say they can't fix, or fix it horribly.
Multiple videos on this.
When all it would take is a simple thing that any local repairshop should easily be able to do, the parts are inaccessible for said repair shops, and Apple stores would charge you more then thr computer and the part cost combined
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
New features, primarily, and the fact that Apple OS's tend to lose support from App Developers a lot faster than Android.

And the fact that, as I said, Apple doesn't really want to be open about the issues related to this because people will demand they split OS development up and create optimized OS's for every set of hardware, which would greatly increase costs.

Basically, its still kinda awful, but there is actually a reason for it - its not just arbitrary updates to slow the phone down.
"They don't sabotage your phone, they just install new features that make it run super slowly" is certainly a novel take on things but do you really think it's a reasonable one?
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
The other issue is manufacturers being legally barred from selling parts to anyone but the manufacturer, so third-party repairers can't buy them. And then there's the thing where even if you salvage parts from other phones, they will somehow detect this and brick. This is about establishing monopoly, and anyone arguing against right to repair (essentially a form of property rights), is arguing in favor of monopolies. To try to claim "free market" in this is, to be frank, stupid. At best it is made from ignorance simply because it doesn't matter if you don't buy from Apple if all the other companies are pulling the same shit.
 

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