Question on the Magna Carta and the path dependency it created for England's constitutional and parliamentary future

raharris1973

Well-known member
Did the Magna Carta create a path dependency that made England’s later unwritten constitution and assertive parliament and Bill of Rights the more likely path, or was absolutism just as plausible an outcome afterward? Was it unique among the European or Christian states of its day, or were ‘Magna Cartas’ a dime a dozen in Medieval Europe? Did England’s bias towards parliamentarism over absolutism go even further back, to the Anglo-Saxon Witan, or was that ‘overwritten’ by subsequent Norman history?

If I gave you an AHC to have England ruled by a Louis XIV style sun king in Louis XIV's time, or a Frederick the Great campaigning Generalissimo King in the 18th century, or an Ivan the Terrible like Despot able to off nobles and his heirs and create an Oprichnina state-within-a-state by the 1500s, or a Peter the Great type able to spend all he liked on wars in the early 1700s while free to gift subjects and villages as serfs to his nobles, could I get there with post Baron's War, post King John, post Magna Carta POD?

Any thoughts @Circle of Willis, since you've been talking about John Lackland lately?
 
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Circle of Willis

Well-known member
I don't like historical determinism in general, but in this context I definitely lean hard toward British parliamentarism not being an inevitable outcome in the slightest after the Magna Carta. Where it did become inevitable, I'd say, was the English Civil War, after which the balance of power was set firmly in Parliament's favor and the unspoken understanding came to be that a monarch who insists on crossing Parliament can lose their head (or at least be overthrown, as happened to James II).

Honestly there's a lot of occasions where the British march toward Westminster parliamentarism can be derailed. Having the ECW go the other way and end in a decisive Royalist victory is the obvious one, but you could go a lot earlier if you'd like. The Tudors and Yorks put in a good deal of work to strengthen the Crown, centralize authority and subordinate the Parliament & nobility in general; have Edward V make it to his coronation, have Richard III win at Bosworth and spawn some heirs from a second or third marriage, have Henry VII's eldest son Arthur survive, let Henry VIII have sons who survive into adulthood...lots of choices for PODs to produce an absolute or semi-absolute English monarchy in the 15th-16th centuries.

If you must have a very early POD, having Edward I not reaffirm the Magna Carta at all and destroy anyone who rises up against him over it (as I'd imagine a man of his towering stature & ability could do, and actually did to Simon de Montfort - RIP anyone else who crosses Longshanks) would probably be the best one. Technically IIRC that's a post-Barons' War POD, albeit just barely (1270 or whereabouts).
 
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Skallagrim

Well-known member
I'll re-iterate some comments I made on this a few years ago, somewhat altered to suit this thread:

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Regarding the historical importance of the Magna Carta:

There's one school of thought that considers the Magna Carta to have been of crucial importance. There's another that considers it insignificant: merely one of the many charters of rights/privileges/liberties of the aristocracy that were common throughout Europe (and one whose historical "reputation" simply happened to grow vastly, long after the fact).

The truth is probably in the middle somewhere. The Magna Carta wasn't unique by a long shot, and was initially hardly as special as we now imagine it to be in common historiography, but the fact that it grew in cultural significance over time did influence English political thought -- and thus history -- in major ways. The larger conflict between the interests of the crown and the interests of the aristocracy is fairly universal, but the way this played out in England (the evolution of parliamentarianism, the Civil War, the deposition and execution of a monarch, the Protectorate, the Restoration, and later on the Glorious Revolution) was significantly influenced by the tradition that had both produced the Magna Carta and had later come to be shaped by it.

Which isn't to say that the Magna Carta was somehow the only factor (or even the biggest one) in shaping the relevant events I mentioned above, but rather that without it, ATL events pertaining to the same fundamental power-struggle would have played out differently. Without the Magna Carta, England might eventually hew closer to a moderate quasi-absolutism, with the Crown successively making certain concessions in a gradual process, but without anything like the Civil War ever coming about. After all, many countries resolved the issue of the power dynamic between the Crown and the aristocracy in a gradual, ad hoc process without the matter of royal power ever becoming the cause for a civil war.

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Regarding the historical context and place of the Magna Carta:

One may well argue that the latter-day romantic notions of "proud Anglo-Saxons wanting to throw off the Norman yoke" were pure revisionism, but the idea that such things as the Magna Carta were in part inspired by an "ancient English constitution" protecting certain freedoms, going back to the days of the Anglo-Saxons, is not actually that far-fetched. This notion has been lauded at times, more recently it has been criticised, but I am noticing a reversal of that trend. A certain continuity of tradition can be identified.

The main work that is known for really all-out defending this point of view is the great big 19th century classic: The Constitutional History of England, by William Stubbs. It has since been attacked, often viciously, for its perceived "Germanist" bias. I disagree. The work's main weakness is that it's a product of its time, and it is thus dated. But Stubbs has written a masterpiece, and if you take it with a grain of salt, it's eminently worth a read.

There is is, of course, more modern fare. The Roots of Liberty: Magna Carta, Ancient Constitution, and the Anglo-American Tradition of Rule of Law, edited by Ellis Sandoz, for instance. It's a very interesting read, although I've known some people to shun it on account of its publisher being an institute advocating libertarian-ish politics.

What they nowadays call a "golden oldie" is, from 1914 (so still quite modern compared to Stubbs!), Magna Carta: A Commentary on the Great Charter of King John, with an Historical Introduction, by William Sharp McKechnie. Also a classic, and more nuanced (but in my opinion, somewhat less eloquent).

A.K.R. Kiralfy, in The English Legal System, and as editor of Potter’s Historical Introduction To English Law And Its Institutions, stresses the importance of the Anglo-Saxon legal tradition, and its continuity into the Norman era. It would be a bit much to get the whole book for just a couple of pages on the relevant topic, however!

Nicholas Vincent has furthermore stressed the importance of the precedent of king Henry's coronation charter in various lectures, which had previously guaranteed the rights of the nobility. This charter, in turn, is very typical of the kind of confirmation of rights that we see in all of Germanic Europe. (In the Low Countries, for instance, we had similar charters, referred to as a Groot Privilege: "great privilege", where "privelege" has the literal meaning, and refers to the rights of the nobles to make their own laws.) This all goes back to Germanic law, codified back in Charlemagne's day. In Anglo-Saxon England, it was no different. Even after Christianisation, old Germanic law prevailed, and the liberties of the nobility in particular remained a guarantee. The coronation charter of King Henry and the Magna Carta, then, certainly have their roots in these Germanic principles dating far back.

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In the context of this thread, that last bit may lead us to the conclusion that the Magna Carta didn't just come out of nowhere, and that even if it had been nixed entirely -- never existing at all -- that would still not rule out that other documents like it, inspired by the same "background culture", would be drafted anyway. The roots of these ideas, as I've argued, go deep. And they tend to enjoy periodic revivals. As I pointed out when I posted the above comments over three years ago: Thomas Jefferson explicitly cited Anglo-Saxon liberties as the basis for the rights of Englishmen, and proposed putting Anlo-Saxon chiefs Hengist and Horsa on the Great Seal of the United States, because (he believed) every freedom in the Declaration of Independence ultimately owed its survival to them.

(Which is funny, because as @Circle of Willis has noted, during the Civil War, the South sought to portray themselves as Normans, and denounced the Anglo-Saxons as commoners. But to Jefferson, the Normans were thugs, and the Anglo-Saxons were the progenitors of everything good that the USA sought to embody. Personally, I'm with Jefferson on that...)
 
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Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
Magna Carta is a vital document to England's Constitutional development, but I'd argue it has an unsung hero who was essential to how it turned out.

William Marshal, the greatest knight and Earl of Pembroke, not only ensures Magna Carta is properly implemented to the point of it being a coronation oath, he defeats the Barons who could well have turned England into a shabby Venice knock off.
 

raharris1973

Well-known member
Magna Carta is a vital document to England's Constitutional development, but I'd argue it has an unsung hero who was essential to how it turned out.

William Marshal, the greatest knight and Earl of Pembroke, not only ensures Magna Carta is properly implemented to the point of it being a coronation oath, he defeats the Barons who could well have turned England into a shabby Venice knock off.


Man, just to validate the saying that 'one man's trash is another man's treasure'. I am now intensely interested in how a victory by the Baron's could have turned high Middle Ages England into a Venice knock off, shabby or not!

A crippled Crowned or uncrowned English Republic in medieval times would be very interesting as long as it lasted. Venice had its run of successes. Even if England ended up with the Baron's creating a Polish style regime that would be interesting. Even Poland had its run of successes before going down the tubes. And even if uncrowned oligarchy is unviable, England, being an island, may go on a long time before paying for its sins...

...and even if it didn't, I'd gladly heat up the popcorn to watch it go down in anarchy over a half century or so, for the entertainment value alone.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
Man, just to validate the saying that 'one man's trash is another man's treasure'. I am now intensely interested in how a victory by the Baron's could have turned high Middle Ages England into a Venice knock off, shabby or not!

A crippled Crowned or uncrowned English Republic in medieval times would be very interesting as long as it lasted. Venice had its run of successes. Even if England ended up with the Baron's creating a Polish style regime that would be interesting. Even Poland had its run of successes before going down the tubes. And even if uncrowned oligarchy is unviable, England, being an island, may go on a long time before paying for its sins...

...and even if it didn't, I'd gladly heat up the popcorn to watch it go down in anarchy over a half century or so, for the entertainment value alone.


Indeed,Venice lasted long.I would say,that at least 1700 they were important player there.
And,after 1688 England was crowned Republic ruled by bunch of oligarchs.They are till our days,i would say.

Poland could last if our monarchs made deal with gentry,instead supporting oligarchs.Which finished us in 18th century.

Back to England - you could take popcorn now and enjoy their fall.
 

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