Philosophical-Social Discussion over Pornographic Materials

ShieldWife

Marchioness
@Terthna @Bacle @Captain X
Even if you think porn consumption has positives or isn't all that bad, I think you all can hopefully agree the industry itself can be scummy as shit.
You didn't mention me, but I absolutely agree. The porn industry tends to be really scummy. As I mentioned earlier, the idea of these people teaching 12 year olds about sex is pretty horrible.

I actually think that in some ways the proliferation of pornography on the internet could actually improve pornography. I'd much rather porn be made by girls recording their own videos on webcams and then selling it to individual customers than them be employees of big porn. It doesn't address all of the problems or potential problems of pornography, but decentralization of pornography probably makes it better.
 

ShadowsOfParadox

Well-known member
Fantasies are just in your head, while porn presumably involved a person other than yourself?
...well, by that definition I suppose you drop all the animated stuff and 95+% of games... interesting. EDIT2: ... I don't think I've seen a live action porn vid in the past... 3ish months? And the games number is because I suppose there's probably SOME porn games out there that involve live action vids... wait, no, there are, they're just scene pickers for a POV vid... man, it's been a long time since I saw one of those.

EDIT: Anyone claiming ANY industry is free of scum is patently insane and/or an idiot.
 
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Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
@Terthna @Bacle @Captain X
Even if you think porn consumption has positives or isn't all that bad, I think you all can hopefully agree the industry itself can be scummy as shit.
This, I can agree whole heartedly. I'd much prefer the abusive sites and producers were clamped down to a serious degree.

It's also why I have moved away from watching/consuming live action porn. Say what you will about hentai and lemon-fics, but you don't have to worry about the people involved being put through that sort of shit.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
Actually I proposed that it is possible to find positive and negative effects within pornography, and said that you don't have to necessarily reject all studies outright that don't conform to your predisposed position. I pointed out even the most harmful of drugs can hold positive effects, that it's possible porn can be found to have negatives and positives.
That's a bit different from what you were originally arguing; that there are no positive effects than can be ascribed to pornography.

Sorry, but this is a case where you really can't go "No u." Especially when I did point out flaws when a study is listing making atheists as a positive. I seriously doubt you would accept a study on its face if it said a positive is that more people become Christians, right? Doesn't that clearly betray an agenda?
Of course it does; but to be honest, that was an article, an opinion piece, not an actual study. Maybe I'm just cynical, but agendas are to be expected in those things.

Why though? Why is it so important to you that porn is not only a legal vice, but in fact not a vice at all and instead a healthy and positive thing?
I'll admit that I have a pretty hefty personal stake in this; I enjoy indulging in quite a lot of pornography (my personal collection of pornographic doujins, manga, anime, games, literature, and other such sundries clocks in at well over 300 gigabytes on my hard drive), and I've also written my own on occasion. Pornography has always been a source of joy for me, as well as my refuge on many occasions; and thus it should be understandable why I would be against condemning it as inherently immoral.

In the end though, it's important to me that it's considered a healthy and positive thing, because I believe it is. Just as it's important to me that people don't consider Milk to be racist; because I believe it isn't. Or that they don't push the idea that guns kill people; because I believe it is actually people that kill people, not inanimate objects.

Of course, I have a lot of evidence to back these "beliefs" up, but so do the people who believe otherwise; so how are we supposed to settle this? I don't know; all I know is, I rather dislike the things I love being declared by anyone as inherently immoral. I can give you examples of people who have literally died as a result of playing video games, of lives that have been destroyed, and family member who have killed each other over them; does that make playing video games an immoral act? I don't think it should.

@Terthna @Bacle @Captain X
Even if you think porn consumption has positives or isn't all that bad, I think you all can hopefully agree the industry itself can be scummy as shit.
Of course, but that's true of every industry; which is why the government must play a role in ensuring exploitation like that does not happen, or failing that at the very least punish those responsible.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
That's a bit different from what you were originally arguing; that there are no positive effects than can be ascribed to pornography.
I never said that. I argued that there exists negative effects, that doesn't mean I am arguing that zero positives can be found. I said that in the very beginning, and my post there is what I was originally arguing.

Of course it does; but to be honest, that was an article, an opinion piece, not an actual study. Maybe I'm just cynical, but agendas are to be expected in those things.
No, not an opinion piece article. That was by Psychology Today which reputes to be a scientific journal.

I'll admit that I have a pretty hefty personal stake in this; I enjoy indulging in quite a lot of pornography (my personal collection of pornographic doujins, manga, anime, games, literature, and other such sundries clocks in at well over 300 gigabytes on my hard drive), and I've also written my own on occasion. Pornography has always been a source of joy for me, as well as my refuge on many occasions; and thus it should be understandable why I would be against condemning it as inherently immoral.

In the end though, it's important to me that it's considered a healthy and positive thing, because I believe it is. Just as it's important to me that people don't consider Milk to be racist; because I believe it isn't. Or that they don't push the idea that guns kill people; because I believe it is actually people that kill people, not inanimate objects.

Of course, I have a lot of evidence to back these "beliefs" up, but so do the people who believe otherwise; so how are we supposed to settle this? I don't know; all I know is, I rather dislike the things I love being declared by anyone as inherently immoral. I can give you examples of people who have literally died as a result of playing video games, of lives that have been destroyed, and family member who have killed each other over them; does that make playing video games an immoral act? I don't think it should.
See I don't get this. I use nicotine frequently. It feels nice, it calms me down, it's relaxing, and it's even saved me by helping stop me from falling asleep on the road. However, I can acknowledge it's a vice, it's slowly killing me, and I get angsty and irritable when I am off it for an extended time. I don't see it as a good thing. The fact that I use it and treat it as a need rather than a want is a failing in my own character. Same with booze. It's fun, it's enjoyable, but at the same time it comes with it the chance of addiction, dependency, increases the likelihood of committing criminal acts and if I drive I can kill someone. Video games too can be a vice. It's pleasurable and enjoyable, but it isn't productive in your own life other than producing momentary happiness, and can lead to bad outcomes in addiction, loss of money, over-investment and anger. I don't understand why it's important it be considered a healthy and positive thing when no other vice gets this from anyone, even those who partake in it. You can acknowledge it's enjoyable, because all vices are. That doesn't mean it's also healthy and positive.

Of course, but that's true of every industry; which is why the government must play a role in ensuring exploitation like that does not happen, or failing that at the very least punish those responsible.
Do you think Porn is more, less, or equally exploitative as most industries?
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
@Terthna @Bacle @Captain X
Even if you think porn consumption has positives or isn't all that bad, I think you all can hopefully agree the industry itself can be scummy as shit.
Sure, but then so can any industry. Doesn't change my stance on porn overall, especially as I see this as justice being done. And one of the positives of it being legal is that it can be regulated and watched like any other industry as well, so that people like this have legal recourse rather than keeping quiet and taking whatever money they got out of it lest they get arrested themselves. Incidentally, I'm also pro-legalizing prostitution. ;)
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
Sure, but then so can any industry. Doesn't change my stance on porn overall, especially as I see this as justice being done. And one of the positives of it being legal is that it can be regulated and watched like any other industry as well, so that people like this have legal recourse rather than keeping quiet and taking whatever money they got out of it lest they get arrested themselves. Incidentally, I'm also pro-legalizing prostitution. ;)
Is it more or less exploitative and scummy?
 

prinCZess

Warrior, Writer, Performer, Perv
Do you think Porn is more, less, or equally exploitative as most industries?
Apologies for butting-in, but I'd actually be surprised to learn it's 'more' and much-more suspect that it is equal to other industries (potentially less, but that's an outside bet)? There are different avenues of exploitation in porn with larger concerns than such would be in other industries (someone working a waitressing job underage being less concerning than someone doing porn underage--and human trafficking for that/prostitution a concern where it's much less so in other cases that don't overlap with that scene) and because porn is such a digital product nowadays, there's opportunity for really shitty people in places with much less of a law presence to publish and profit from it, so the 'scale' we're talking affects things? But in the developed world, where enforcement and oversight exists for industries like porn? I would expect porn to be similarly (or less) exploitative as other similar service/performance industries--and trend towards being exploitative in some cases in manners that include the participants (folks involved winking and nodding at age requirements if someone with a passable fake ID shows up who wants to be involved).

The stuff doesn't get publicized or caught in Thailand or what-have-you. Here in the US, stuff like the GirlsDoPorn BS of trafficking in children can get investigated and see prosecutions coming forward precisely because the fucknugget overseeing it skirted rules and laws in place to make sure porn is produced on the up-and-up. If anything, porn's probably more well-regulated and overseen than are other similar avenues like erotic dance or 'massage parlors' that are notorious for their skirting of laws on a host of topics.
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
Is it more or less exploitative and scummy?
Depends. It would be easy to say that it could be considered more scummy because sex/nudity is involved, but I'd argue that there are other industries that exploit the people working for them as bad or worse, and that since it's business as usual for them rather than an exception that the court system is going to come down on, it makes them scummier. And since business as usual isn't anywhere near as sexy to talk about, not as many people notice or care.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
How do we define exploitation anyway? It seems like a loaded nebulously defined term. If a porn actress willingly agrees to the deal, then is it exploitation?
I think if you are taking people with a drug habit and/or washed up failed LA actors, actresses, singers, etc. and offering them money to do degrading things because they are in a state of desperation that it is exploitative.
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
I think if you are taking people with a drug habit and/or washed up failed LA actors, actresses, singers, etc. and offering them money to do degrading things because they are in a state of desperation that it is exploitative.
On one hand I agree, on the other hand is any crappy job that only a desperate person would take exploitive? People who do sex work have the choice of working at McDonalds too, but they find the sexual job more appealing for what ever reason - likely much more money.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
On one hand I agree, on the other hand is any crappy job that only a desperate person would take exploitive? People who do sex work have the choice of working at McDonalds too, but they find the sexual job more appealing for what ever reason - likely much more money.
Access to drugs and a dependency formed through abuse by a pimp.
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
On one hand I agree, on the other hand is any crappy job that only a desperate person would take exploitive? People who do sex work have the choice of working at McDonalds too, but they find the sexual job more appealing for what ever reason - likely much more money.
Usually quite a bit of money, the women especially. A great example of this is Emily DaVinci, who paid for her undergraduate degree by doing porn. Apparently she's a fairly prominent lecturer with a PhD at some university in Texas these days, working in the nanotech field. I guess most students tend to get fucked for their degrees anyway, it's just that for most of us it's more figuratively speaking. ;) Oh, and it's a lot less enjoyable, and lasts a whole lot longer. :(
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I never said that. I argued that there exists negative effects, that doesn't mean I am arguing that zero positives can be found. I said that in the very beginning, and my post there is what I was originally arguing.


No, not an opinion piece article. That was by Psychology Today which reputes to be a scientific journal.


See I don't get this. I use nicotine frequently. It feels nice, it calms me down, it's relaxing, and it's even saved me by helping stop me from falling asleep on the road. However, I can acknowledge it's a vice, it's slowly killing me, and I get angsty and irritable when I am off it for an extended time. I don't see it as a good thing. The fact that I use it and treat it as a need rather than a want is a failing in my own character. Same with booze. It's fun, it's enjoyable, but at the same time it comes with it the chance of addiction, dependency, increases the likelihood of committing criminal acts and if I drive I can kill someone. Video games too can be a vice. It's pleasurable and enjoyable, but it isn't productive in your own life other than producing momentary happiness, and can lead to bad outcomes in addiction, loss of money, over-investment and anger. I don't understand why it's important it be considered a healthy and positive thing when no other vice gets this from anyone, even those who partake in it. You can acknowledge it's enjoyable, because all vices are. That doesn't mean it's also healthy and positive.


Do you think Porn is more, less, or equally exploitative as most industries?

I have also noticed that Marijuana users and advocates treat it as a perfectly healthy miracle drug as well. It’s the same thing with pornography addiction. Both causes are defended with the same mindset. Now, I fully support marijuana legalisation, but it’s driven me quite wild to have to deal with people claiming it’s harmless and they should be able to smoke it in public. I once had a tenant who I got into a terrible complicated feud with for smoking it inside of a building. All I was doing was applying the same rules as to cigarettes...
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
See I don't get this. I use nicotine frequently. It feels nice, it calms me down, it's relaxing, and it's even saved me by helping stop me from falling asleep on the road. However, I can acknowledge it's a vice, it's slowly killing me, and I get angsty and irritable when I am off it for an extended time. I don't see it as a good thing. The fact that I use it and treat it as a need rather than a want is a failing in my own character. Same with booze. It's fun, it's enjoyable, but at the same time it comes with it the chance of addiction, dependency, increases the likelihood of committing criminal acts and if I drive I can kill someone. Video games too can be a vice. It's pleasurable and enjoyable, but it isn't productive in your own life other than producing momentary happiness, and can lead to bad outcomes in addiction, loss of money, over-investment and anger. I don't understand why it's important it be considered a healthy and positive thing when no other vice gets this from anyone, even those who partake in it. You can acknowledge it's enjoyable, because all vices are. That doesn't mean it's also healthy and positive.
So what you're saying is that nothing that can be considered a vice can be healthy and positive. Have you consider that, by your own logic, religion can also be considered a vice? I could spend hours point out example after example where your religion has taken over, ruined, and ended lives, and I'm pretty sure you'd get "angsty and irritable" if I demanded you abandon your religious beliefs; but none of that will convince you that your religion isn't a "healthy and positive" thing, as is proper.

There is no equivalence between things like nicotine and alcohol, and video games and pornography; because the former are poisons, while the latter are mediums for artistic expression. Sure, you can point to examples of people overindulging in the latter, but that's always caused by underlying psychological issues; take away the games and porn, and you'd still have a mentally disturbed individual looking for something else to give them that hit of dopamine.

I realize this probably goes against everything your religion has taught you, but just because something is pleasurable and enjoyable does not necessarily make it a bad thing. It's important that pornography is considered a healthy and positive thing, because just like video games, movies, books, comics, animation, poetry, theater, music, dancing, painting, sculpting, and every other form of artistic expression under the sun, it is; your religious beliefs otherwise be damned.

Do you think Porn is more, less, or equally exploitative as most industries?
I think it's impossible to make a comparison like that, because it depends on your perspective.

I think if you are taking people with a drug habit and/or washed up failed LA actors, actresses, singers, etc. and offering them money to do degrading things because they are in a state of desperation that it is exploitative.
And I think if you're lying to people to get them to buy your product, and exploiting psychological weaknesses to get them to give you insane amounts of money they cannot afford to give, that is exploitative. However, you've already made it clear elsewhere that you do not agree, so we are clearly not using the same definition as to what counts as exploitation.

Side note; the fact that you're okay with lying, but not pornography, goes a long way to show how messed up your priorities are. In my opinion, at least.
 
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Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
I have also noticed that Marijuana users and advocates treat it as a perfectly healthy miracle drug as well. It’s the same thing with pornography addiction. Both causes are defended with the same mindset. Now, I fully support marijuana legalisation, but it’s driven me quite wild to have to deal with people claiming it’s harmless and they should be able to smoke it in public. I once had a tenant who I got into a terrible complicated feud with for smoking it inside of a building. All I was doing was applying the same rules as to cigarettes...
Ok, I have to chime in here, because this issue is one where, well, I have enough experience with multiple facets of the issue to understand most sides.

Cannabis/hemp has been part of the human ecosystem and diet, in many forms, for thousands/millions of years. We wouldn't have an endocannabinoid system if this wasn't the case.

It is not a cure-all, far from it, and I've fought back against the people who spread that BS.

But it also very much does belong in normal human society, and the medical effects are not insubstantial. THC I can take or leave, it's not why I endorse/like the plant(s); the CBD in the plant is something a healthy human body needs. I've known people who beat breast cancer using CBD topical/edible mixes instead of chemo. CBD has also been shown to drastically reduce the effects of epilipsy, and THC helps heroin addicts quit without all the nasty withdrawl effects. The muscle relaxing properties help deal with near-sightedness, while the appetite stimulant properties help pateints in chemo keep up their strength. There are studies that show THC helps slow the progression of Parkinson's, and other neurological disorders. And THC/CBD have also been shown to help reduce the incidence of cancer causing mutations in cells.

Before we used to get our THC/CBD from feral hemp milk cows ate, and we didn't need to make edibles or smoke flower material to get it. When cannabis/hemp was made illegal, and that feral hemp was eradicated, we lost our natural source of the compounds.

Now it cannot fix broken bones, or deal with virus's/bacterial infections, or reverse the effects of aging. Anyone who claims this is full of shit.

But cannabis/hemp is one of those places where I will say with %100 certainty that the stigma is unjustified, unhelpful to soceity at large, and that consumption of the plant should never have been considered a vice.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
So what you're saying is that nothing that can be considered a vice can be healthy and positive. Have you consider that, by your own logic, religion can also be considered a vice? I could spend hours point out example after example where your religion has taken over, ruined, and ended lives, and I'm pretty sure you'd get "angsty and irritable" if I demanded you abandon your religious beliefs; but none of that will convince you that your religion isn't a "healthy and positive" thing, as is proper.
Absolutely it can be. Pharisees and that type of behavior would be an example where they make religion into a vice, where it becomes purely about following the rules and lacks all intent and becomes a way purely to show moral superiority over others.

There is no equivalence between things like nicotine and alcohol, and video games and pornography; because the former are poisons, while the latter are mediums for artistic expression. Sure, you can point to examples of people overindulging in the latter, but that's always caused by underlying psychological issues; take away the games and porn, and you'd still have a mentally disturbed individual looking for something else to give them that hit of dopamine.
You don't think porn can cause any issues itself, even if it is viewed heavily at a young age?

I realize this probably goes against everything your religion has taught you, but just because something is pleasurable and enjoyable does not necessarily make it a bad thing. It's important that pornography is considered a healthy and positive thing, because just like video games, movies, books, comics, animation, poetry, theater, music, dancing, painting, sculpting, and every other form of artistic expression under the sun, it is; your religious beliefs otherwise be damned.
Except none of these revolve around the same manual release of dopamine that you use, do they? And also you clearly know fuck all about Christianity, of course everything pleasurable isn't bad inherently. What in the hell are you talking about? Of course not everything fun is evil. The big difference between the two is the direct dopamine release you build up to. And there are clearly big differences, because I don't think many couples are getting divorced with reading too much poetry as a reason for it.

And I think if you're lying to people to get them to buy your product, and exploiting psychological weaknesses to get them to give you insane amounts of money they cannot afford to give, that is exploitative. However, you've already made it clear elsewhere that you do not agree, so we are clearly not using the same definition as to what counts as exploitation.
I disagree that it should be illegal.

Side note; the fact that you're okay with lying, but not pornography, goes a long way to show how messed up your priorities are. In my opinion, at least.
I think neither should be illegal.
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
I have also noticed that Marijuana users and advocates treat it as a perfectly healthy miracle drug as well. It’s the same thing with pornography addiction. Both causes are defended with the same mindset. Now, I fully support marijuana legalisation, but it’s driven me quite wild to have to deal with people claiming it’s harmless and they should be able to smoke it in public. I once had a tenant who I got into a terrible complicated feud with for smoking it inside of a building. All I was doing was applying the same rules as to cigarettes...
It's also had some notable effects in combating cancer and in dealing with numerous other medical conditions, but research into it and its effective ingredients has been retarded for decades thanks to the work of moral busybodies who use the circular logic of "It's bad because it's illegal" and "it's illegal because it's bad." Not saying that's you, but I've seen this so many times from so many other people. Really the only thing I have against it is that it smells like skunk, and it really makes me wonder who was the first person who smelled that and thought it'd be a great idea to smoke it. :LOL: Kind of like whoever smelled absinthe wormwood and thought it'd be a great idea to make booze out of it.
 

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