Philosophical-Social Discussion over Pornographic Materials

[ShadowsOfParadox]

If you ask that everyone be totally fine with viewing and making pornography on a moral level, then yes, you are asking that.

...when the feth did anyone ask that? I'm pretty sure most people are pretty much just going "Well, you can disagree but Imma keep doing what I'm doing."

 

[ShieldWife]

@ShieldWife Ah, well I don't use that framing, and here's why:

Let's say we lived in a world where people murdered Jews and ate them, and this was an acceptable position. And then, two people got into an argument about whether this practice of cannibalizing Jews is good for you. The person defending cannibalism then said "what one person may consider harmful, another may not. Maybe eating Jews is making a person feel happy and contented. It's a complicated question." Would you actually accept such an answer as legitimate? Or would you conclude that the person's own subjective preferences are disordered.

Did you honestly just liken watching pornography to eating Jews?

You see, if someone is being murdered and eaten, then you have someone (the victim) who is not consenting and is directly and undeniably harmed.

With porn, you have a girl who willingly makes a naughty movie of herself and a man who willingly watches it. They both choose to do this. If I happened upon someone trying to eat a Jew, assuming it’s not George Soros or Harvey Weinstein or somebody, and I had my CCW with me, I would prevent the murder/cannibalism and 50% of the people involved would be happy that I did so. If I used violence to stop the purchase of porn, both the customer and the creator would be unhappy with me.

Murder is violating someone’s rights In probably the worst way. It’s a hell of a thing, killing a man. You take away all
He’s got and all he’s ever gonna have. Making, selling, buying, and viewing porn violates nobody’s rights. I shouldn’t have to explain this.

In my view, your argument assumes a kind of moral subjectivism. Your position implies that, if two people feel differently about the same moral issue, then there's no way to determine whether or not the other is correct. But we know that, regardless of how a person feels, violating another person's human rights is not good for the rights violator because the act in itself is intrinsically immoral.

I’m not saying that morality is subjective. I am saying that harm is subjective. If someone chooses some action or behavior which they feel benefits himself, then why should someone else be able to call it harm and the inflict violence on that person ostensibly to protect him from himself?

Subjective harm as you define it doesn't exist. It's a spook. There is only objective harm. To every question, there is a right answer and wrong answer, even if we cannot tell what the correct answer is.

I don’t think that the is a universal standard of behavior that must apply to all humans. Is there always a right answer to every question, maybe? Sometimes that right answer is “I don’t know.” Sometimes that right answer is “It depends.” Sometimes the right answer is “It’s different for different people.”

What harms some people doesn’t harm others, that is as fact and it might apply to pornography along with countless other things.

 

[FriedCFour]

...when the feth did anyone ask that? I'm pretty sure most people are pretty much just going "Well, you can disagree but Imma keep doing what I'm doing."

Socially? A whole hell of a lot of people in influential parts of the left right now. The No-Nut November meme just got labelled an Alt-right conspiracy, a ton of people are arguing porn is a social good and anyone with an issue with it is a problem. In this thread Terthna, who is arguing pornography is an objective good (ignoring literally all studies to the contrary because biased while completely accepting the biases of his own studies), and that people being against pornography is a problem that should be dealt with.

 

[FriedCFour]

With porn, you have a girl who willingly makes a naughty movie of herself and a man who willingly watches it. They both choose to do this.

Sometimes. They also tend to be drug addicts and exploited heavily, and many apparently paid exceeding little.

 

[ShieldWife]

Your also forgetting one very important thing the outside culture the man lives in.

Finding that person that you can fall in love with and have a relationship with is a numbers game.

Now understand that there are a lot of women who are insane. I mean this literally you get people who have untreated bi-polar, boarderline disorder and things like that and that's before you get to litteral psychopaths and predatory women.

And if you don't belive predatory women are a thing go to any military base and sit down and listen to the service men all of them will have horror stories about stuff that has happened to men on base.

Now realize that telling who's literally crazy, who's a psychopath, and who's just out to use you up is difficult to tell. Now It gets worse, all of those bad faith elements have been empowered.

False accusations are common and even if your a prospective surpreme court justice and there is zero proof and the womans story has obvious holes in it. Your reputation will be ruined and there will be no conquences to the woman who lied under oath to congress.

What chance do you have as an average guy? Every time you ask a woman out you have to roll those dice and the conquences of running into some one bad or crazy? Statistically that's 1 in 10. A one in ten odds of a bad experience that can easily spiral out of control into a nightmare.

Thats the world I live in.

And Im going to be honest sheild wife, the only people that can fix that problem. Its women, because men are honestly shit at dealing with women who act in bad faith. You guys are going to have to be the ones that fix the damaged social contract and ostrasize preditory women.

Everything you say is true. One reason that dating can be so hard for men is that women’s behavior is encouraged and excused by both society and the government. All to often, the consequences of women being bad are paid not by her but by society or her male partner. Both laws and society needs to change to help fix this.

Unfortunately, a major goal of feminism was to remove negative consequences of women acting bad or abusing their advantages as women, including the social stigma that they used to face from other women.

How does this tie into porn? Well, it’s just another reason why men might not want to put a lot of effort into taking the risk of dating and relationships with women. In a small way, having access to porn kind of empowers men in that it gives them a sexual outlet without having to grovel to women. Which might be one reason why feminists often don’t like porn.

 

[ShieldWife]

Sometimes. They also tend to be drug addicts and exploited heavily, and many apparently paid exceeding little.

Yes, that is true. Exploitation is something hard to quantify if people are making free choices. If someone is some kind of sex slave, then obviously pornography made with them is wrong. If they are making porn to support a drug habit, then the porn can’t really be blamed, though it’s undeniable that women who make pornography are very often emotionally or psychologically damaged in some way. Does this make porn bad? Not necessarily, but it’s something to consider.

I’m certainly open minded to arguments that porn is harmful over all and that people should reduce their consumption of it. I just don’t think laws are the way to go about it.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

Yes, that is true. Exploitation is something hard to quantify if people are making free choices. If someone is some kind of sex slave, then obviously pornography made with them is wrong. If they are making porn to support a drug habit, then the porn can’t really be blamed, though it’s undeniable that women who make pornography are very often emotionally or psychologically damaged in some way. Does this make porn bad? Not necessarily, but it’s something to consider.

I’m certainly open minded to arguments that porn is harmful over all and that people should reduce their consumption of it. I just don’t think laws are the way to go about it.

I agree, it is legislating a question that should be left to the social sphere.

 

[FriedCFour]

Yes, that is true. Exploitation is something hard to quantify if people are making free choices. If someone is some kind of sex slave, then obviously pornography made with them is wrong. If they are making porn to support a drug habit, then the porn can’t really be blamed, though it’s undeniable that women who make pornography are very often emotionally or psychologically damaged in some way. Does this make porn bad? Not necessarily, but it’s something to consider.

I’m certainly open minded to arguments that porn is harmful over all and that people should reduce their consumption of it. I just don’t think laws are the way to go about it.

That's really what I want to get at here, that it's a vice and its topsy turvy shit to try and make it a virtue. Doesn't mean it should be illegal. But with laws do you think we should have anything better for keeping it away from kids?

 

[Fleiur]

I think if someone isn't getting the sexual gratification they want from a partner, then why should they not look to porn to satisfy those urges?

Because you work it out with your partner. Communication.

 

[LordSunhawk]

The Boot is here! In this thread! Are you not entertained? The Boot is just poking its toe in to remind everybody about the rules, since things have been getting heated without any actual violations so far (Good on you for letting the Boot rest, the polishing the Boot was getting was SO relaxing). The Boot wants to keep things that way, with everybody paying attention to Rule 2 in all of its wonderful glory.

This post from the Boot is brought to you by the letter P R E E M P T I V and E.

 

[Fleiur]

What chance do you have as an average guy? Every time you ask a woman out you have to roll those dice and the conquences of running into some one bad or crazy? Statistically that's 1 in 10. A one in ten odds of a bad experience that can easily spiral out of control into a nightmare.

Have values and look for a woman who shares your values.

 

[Cherico]

Have values and look for a woman who shares your values.

Some one with a predatory mindset can and will fake those values.

 

[Deleted member]

Some one with a predatory mindset can and will fake those values.

At some point, risk is just required in dating. I don't think that's cruel or unreasonable.

 

[Fleiur]

Some one with a predatory mindset can and will fake those values.

Yeah. But that's why there is communication.

 

[Terthna]

Socially? A whole hell of a lot of people in influential parts of the left right now. The No-Nut November meme just got labelled an Alt-right conspiracy, a ton of people are arguing porn is a social good and anyone with an issue with it is a problem. In this thread Terthna, who is arguing pornography is an objective good (ignoring literally all studies to the contrary because biased while completely accepting the biases of his own studies), and that people being against pornography is a problem that should be dealt with.

Says the man ignoring literally all studies to the contrary because biased while completely accepting the biases of his own studies. At least I have the decency to try and point out fundamental flaws in the methodology of opposing studies. I reject your philosophy because I believe it is wrong, and I refuse to accept that philosophy as a guiding principle in any society I'm a part of.

Look, we're basically arguing in circles at this point, as is often the case whenever I find myself holding opposing viewpoints from yours, and I really rather not waste my time with this anymore; let's just agree to disagree, okay?

 

[FriedCFour]

Says the man ignoring literally all studies to the contrary because biased while completely accepting the biases of his own studies. At least I have the decency to try and point out fundamental flaws in the methodology of opposing studies.

As the counterpoint to this, here is a very large database of studies including many showing demonstrated negative effects of pornography.

I'll also add to it that these also don't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive or force you to pick one or the other. A hell of a lot of drugs have positives. nicotine has the positives of increasing alertness and calming someone. Opiods are highly effective pain killers. Meth lets you do this insane shit. You can maybe pull out positives within almost anything, but that doesn't mean it's automatically overall positive. You also don't have to ignore everything that doesn't conform to your own biases either.

Actually I proposed that it is possible to find positive and negative effects within pornography, and said that you don't have to necessarily reject all studies outright that don't conform to your predisposed position. I pointed out even the most harmful of drugs can hold positive effects, that it's possible porn can be found to have negatives and positives. Sorry, but this is a case where you really can't go "No u." Especially when I did point out flaws when a study is listing making atheists as a positive. I seriously doubt you would accept a study on its face if it said a positive is that more people become Christians, right? Doesn't that clearly betray an agenda?

I reject your philosophy because I believe it is wrong, and I refuse to accept that philosophy as a guiding principle in any society I'm a part of.

Why though? Why is it so important to you that porn is not only a legal vice, but in fact not a vice at all and instead a healthy and positive thing?

 

[ShadowsOfParadox]

...here's a question. What's the distinction between "porn" and "making up fantasies".

To be totally honest I had weirder fantasies than any porn I've watched before I started watching porn. And I've watched some very weird porn...

 

[Lanmandragon]

Your also forgetting one very important thing the outside culture the man lives in.

Finding that person that you can fall in love with and have a relationship with is a numbers game.

Now understand that there are a lot of women who are insane. I mean this literally you get people who have untreated bi-polar, boarderline disorder and things like that and that's before you get to litteral psychopaths and predatory women.

And if you don't belive predatory women are a thing go to any military base and sit down and listen to the service men all of them will have horror stories about stuff that has happened to men on base.

Now realize that telling who's literally crazy, who's a psychopath, and who's just out to use you up is difficult to tell. Now It gets worse, all of those bad faith elements have been empowered.

False accusations are common and even if your a prospective surpreme court justice and there is zero proof and the womans story has obvious holes in it. Your reputation will be ruined and there will be no conquences to the woman who lied under oath to congress.

What chance do you have as an average guy? Every time you ask a woman out you have to roll those dice and the conquences of running into some one bad or crazy? Statistically that's 1 in 10. A one in ten odds of a bad experience that can easily spiral out of control into a nightmare.

Thats the world I live in.

And Im going to be honest sheild wife, the only people that can fix that problem. Its women, because men are honestly shit at dealing with women who act in bad faith. You guys are going to have to be the ones that fix the damaged social contract and ostrasize preditory women.

This^ women have always controlled the social spehere by and large. Because we were busy with whatever our trade was. Whether senator or cobbler or king etc. Feminism is an issue women will have to deal with. They aren't going to listen to us.

 

[Scottty]

...here's a question. What's the distinction between "porn" and "making up fantasies".

To be totally honest I had weirder fantasies than any porn I've watched before I started watching porn. And I've watched some very weird porn...

Fantasies are just in your head, while porn presumably involved a person other than yourself?

 

[FriedCFour]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/10/16/men-behind-girlsdoporn-lured-young-women-with-modeling-jobs-then-tricked-them-into-porn-fbi-says/

GirlsDoPorn owner charged with child porn for scene with 16-year-old

Owner Michael Pratt reportedly fled to New Zealand in September.

arstechnica.com

@Terthna @Bacle @Captain X
Even if you think porn consumption has positives or isn't all that bad, I think you all can hopefully agree the industry itself can be scummy as shit.