EU Open Letter from French Ex-Military Officers Denouncing 'Islamism' Disintegrating the Country

[Arlos]

Yeah. Unfortunately, Reason at this point is not a particularly reliable source for anything these days. Getting any sort of reliable info I think is difficult, since there really is no truly neutral info and everything is super spin at this point. For example, all the information I could find on these kinds of issues all dated back to 2016, with newer info being hard to find.

However, looking on the wiki on the subject, something like 16% of French muslims were willing to admit to regular support of suicide bombing, and about 35% put as at some point justifiable. The no go zones do seem to, in fact, exist. There were about 10,000 people on the French Fiche S, a sort of watch list, suspected of being Islamic radicals who were a risk to national security in 2005, and I've heard in a podcast that its risen to some 50,000 now.

If they're right about things spiraling to civil war, dismissing the "low level" violence at this stage is like looking at bleeding Kansas, saying that only some 200 ish people have died, and thus declaring fears of a civil war in the 1860s is overblown. Or, for a more recent example, looking at Antifia and seeing only some 10-20 dead and thus declaring nothing of much significant happened with the setting up of Chad and other "no go" zones.

Such anaysis misses the forest for the trees, often deliberately.

No go zone are definitely a thing, nobody deny it, even the furthest left people in our political spectrum(they just cheer on them when they attack police)
I do believe those numbers on terrorist went up, it’s also important to not that it’s only those who admit it, fact is, there is little to no condamnation from the Muslim community when a terrorists attack happen.

 

[LordsFire]

Possibly true, but it's also cheaper than the alternative. Fell wants enough money for a tiny apartment pod, food, water, medical care and internet connection. The billionaires and their megacorps want to literally recreate feudalism by way of company towns at best, have us all permanently rendered unemployed and unemployable once automation becomes cheaper than human labor no matter how mistreated the laborer, then shot by security drones if we violate their sacred Non-Aggression Principle by rioting or stealing to survive rather than starving in peace at worst. Sure in an ideal world neither of them would exist, but if it's a choice between the two...

Yeah, thing is that's a false dichotomy. 'Cyberpunk dystopia' and 'Socialist failed state' are not the only options. Anyone trying to present them to you as the only alternatives is either ignorant, trying to pressure you into supporting their BS, or both.

I could go into detail about why this is so, but this is not the appropriate thread.

 

[Airedale260]

Le Pen is someone willing to change France for the better

She's only willing to change it in being more nationalist; otherwise she's very much in favor of the status quo. Nationalist and socialist at the same time, really, which...yeah no thanks.

The reason she's getting so much support is she's expressly willing to do *something* when Macron and the Socialist Party are trying to skate by.

Interesting analysis of the gen. context behind France's decline:

Immigrants Didn’t Destroy France; the Welfare State Did - The American Conservative

The pervasive culture of mediocrity egged on by the government deserves blame for France's issues.

www.theamericanconservative.com

The Telegraph had a blurb on the issue as well, actually, and yeah the problem is that the only person who talked about tackling the real issues was Nathan Fillon in the 2017 election. And I'm not sure he'd have been able to ram through the necessary changes, because everyone hates the current system but they don't want to take the risk of things getting worse in the short term vs getting better in the long term.

Even if France successfully banned all immigrants, the current state of affairs is such that the current economic model just isn't sustainable. It's too heavily indebted and stuck in a model that's about 50 years out of date. Nobody wants to change anything even thought it'd be for the better for France as a whole. The technocracy is only interested in preserving itself.

It's just not sustainable, and there are increasing rumblings suggesting that if France held a referendum on withdrawing from the EU, it would succeed. While that would be highly amusing in some ways, at a minimum it needs to be a wake up call for France to unfuck itself, or else someone like Le Pen will come in and things will get all sorts of interesting. Though I wouldn't expect any wars, complete withdrawal from the EU and NATO and cozying up to Russia is likely at a minimum.

 

[Bassoe]

thing is that's a false dichotomy. 'Cyberpunk dystopia' and 'Socialist failed state' are not the only options.

Citation needed. Look at China, capitalism in which the corporations get the occasional pointed reminded from the glowies who holds the monopoly of force works. Look at Europe and New Deal-era America, regulations work. Then look at modern Europe and America, corporatocracy doesn't.

The migrants are just an excuse. Drive down wages. Vote for politicians and parties who can't convince locals to vote for them. Redirect the left from their actual job of defending the local working class to defending the supposed right of the billionaire class to import foreign scabs. Commit a bunch of terrorist attacks and crimes against local peasantry* which the wealthy and politically powerful can use as excuses to pass increasingly totalitarian 'security' laws, supposedly to defend the locals against a threat they themselves imported. In an ideal world, they'd have never been driven out of their own countries by neocon wars in the first place, a slightly-less-than-ideal-but-still-better-than-ours world, they'd be forcibly returned to their own to increase wages and decrease the threats of terrorism and crime for the locals, in our world, they're just a distraction and tool of the actual threat.

* The wealthy and politically powerful have private security and as such, aren't the ones being victimized by said attacks and criminality. Hence, they don't care about them.

 

[Zachowon]

She's only willing to change it in being more nationalist; otherwise she's very much in favor of the status quo. Nationalist and socialist at the same time, really, which...yeah no thanks.

The reason she's getting so much support is she's expressly willing to do *something* when Macron and the Socialist Party are trying to skate by.



The Telegraph had a blurb on the issue as well, actually, and yeah the problem is that the only person who talked about tackling the real issues was Nathan Fillon in the 2017 election. And I'm not sure he'd have been able to ram through the necessary changes, because everyone hates the current system but they don't want to take the risk of things getting worse in the short term vs getting better in the long term.

Even if France successfully banned all immigrants, the current state of affairs is such that the current economic model just isn't sustainable. It's too heavily indebted and stuck in a model that's about 50 years out of date. Nobody wants to change anything even thought it'd be for the better for France as a whole. The technocracy is only interested in preserving itself.

It's just not sustainable, and there are increasing rumblings suggesting that if France held a referendum on withdrawing from the EU, it would succeed. While that would be highly amusing in some ways, at a minimum it needs to be a wake up call for France to unfuck itself, or else someone like Le Pen will come in and things will get all sorts of interesting. Though I wouldn't expect any wars, complete withdrawal from the EU and NATO and cozying up to Russia is likely at a minimum.

@Arlos Since it is your country I think you have the best knowledge of the parties and the candidates invovled.

Le Pen is still France only option at this point to survive. She wants out of both the EU and NATO.

 

[Typhonis]

Possibly true, but it's also cheaper than the alternative. Fell wants enough money for a tiny apartment pod, food, water, medical care and internet connection. The billionaires and their megacorps want to literally recreate feudalism by way of company towns at best, have us all permanently rendered unemployed and unemployable once automation becomes cheaper than human labor no matter how mistreated the laborer, then shot by security drones if we violate their sacred Non-Aggression Principle by rioting or stealing to survive rather than starving in peace at worst. Sure in an ideal world neither of them would exist, but if it's a choice between the two...

I wonder how long it will be before someone on a board of directors realizes that, Hey we don't need a CEO for the company we can have an AI making those decisions and save a shit ton of money in the process. Someone to fix it when it breaks down? 100,000 Francs a year. How much does a CEO make in pay, benefits and bonuses?

 

[Arlos]

@Arlos Since it is your country I think you have the best knowledge of the parties and the candidates invovled.

Le Pen is still France only option at this point to survive. She wants out of both the EU and NATO.

No clues about economics, since it’s not really my focus and they all flip flop all the time. (Though Macron and his cronies tend toward Neolib and Neocon)
Off the top of my head

PCF-Parti communiste Français, Stance; Communist, Candidate; No clue

FI-France Insoumise, Stance; all over the place usually somewhere between socialism and communism, some very left leaning populism and sometime they throw both green in it (Ecolo and Islam), strong tendency toward dictatorship, Candidate; Jean-Luc melenchon (He’s de-facto the party)

Various Greens Parties, Stance; Green outside, red inside, quite a few of them are just plain red. Candidate; We’ll know when they finally backstab their moderate leader.

Various Socialist parties, Stance; Dead, Candidate; We’ll know when they finish killing each other.

LREM-La République en Marche, Stance; Whatever Macron feel like at the moment, usually Neolib or Neocons globalist, they gobbled up the old center, some of the left and some of the right, then they shat them back out into smaller parties over the course of this shitshow, Candidate; Emmanuel Macron aka Jupiter the first.

LR-Les Républicains, Stance: Conservative right, used to be neocons but now try to imitate RN to get some voices back, Candidate; ??? Some guy amongst them just decided to present himself without asking first, and now they are all like headless chicken.

RN-Rassemblement national, Stance: Nationalist right, sovereignist, anti-globalist, anti-EU, Anti-Immigration etc etc, Candidate: Marine Le Pen.

DLF-Debout la France, Stance: Further right than RN, Candidate; Nicolas dupont-Aignan.

Insert Various Monarchist and Neofascist party here.

Those are just the somewhat big one.

 

[Zachowon]

No clues about economics, since it’s not really my focus and they all flip flop all the time. (Though Macron and his cronies tend toward Neolib and Neocon)
Off the top of my head

PCF-Parti communiste Français, Stance; Communist, Candidate; No clue

FI-France Insoumise, Stance; all over the place usually somewhere between socialism and communism, some very left leaning populism and sometime they throw both green in it (Ecolo and Islam), strong tendency toward dictatorship, Candidate; Jean-Luc melenchon (He’s de-facto the party)

Various Greens Parties, Stance; Green outside, red inside, quite a few of them are just plain red. Candidate; We’ll know when they finally backstab their moderate leader.

Various Socialist parties, Stance; Dead, Candidate; We’ll know when they finish killing each other.

LREM-La République en Marche, Stance; Whatever Macron feel like at the moment, usually Neolib or Neocons globalist, they gobbled up the old center, some of the left and some of the right, then they shat them back out into smaller parties over the course of this shitshow, Candidate; Emmanuel Macron aka Jupiter the first.

LR-Les Républicains, Stance: Conservative right, used to be neocons but now try to imitate RN to get some voices back, Candidate; ??? Some guy amongst them just decided to present himself without asking first, and now they are all like headless chicken.

RN-Rassemblement national, Stance: Nationalist right, sovereignist, anti-globalist, anti-EU, Anti-Immigration etc etc, Candidate: Marine Le Pen.

DLF-Debout la France, Stance: Further right than RN, Candidate; Nicolas dupont-Aignan.

Insert Various Monarchist and Neofascist party here.

Those are just the somewhat big one.

And Le Pen is the best bet for your country to not die horribly quickly?

 

[Airedale260]

And Le Pen is the best bet for your country to not die horribly quickly?

France is not going to implode and collapse into anarchy or tyranny. And for all the fucking around they do, they’re still one of the largest economies on Earth.

Le Pen is a nationalist who is making headway only because Macron and Hollande before him (and Sarkozy before him, etc) have been kicking the can down the road while trying to keep the status quo. The problem for Macron is that the end of the road is fast approaching, and at the moment Le Pen is the only one talking about making any drastic changes (while also promising to keep the current welfare state or expand it, plus the infamous 35-hour work week), which...just isn’t feasible and hasn’t hasn’t been for quite some time. Same with reindustrialization and tariffs...of course, to pull those off she needs to pull out of the EU, which isn’t going to happen overnight (if at all).

What she may end up doing if she were to win in 2022 (and unless things dramatically improve I wouldn’t bet against it) is basically do what Trump did when he won in 2016, namely it’s a wake-up call to the establishment that people are tired of the same old shit and want anyone offering a break from the status quo. And unlike Trump, she has a foil in Ursula von der Leyen, whose claim to fame is leaving literally every single organization she’s headed in worse shape than when she found it.

Economically I think she’s a moron, but we’ve already seen Trump and Boris get elected because they’re willing to make significant changes to the status quo. It would not surprise me if France followed suit, but while there almost certainly be a political realignment, I don’t think it will result in a coup or a revolution...people are really unhappy but we aren’t at that level right now.*

*Granted that if Macron doesn’t pull his head out of his ass and acknowledge that these guys have a point about things being out of whack, that may change.

 

[Zachowon]

France is not going to implode and collapse into anarchy or tyranny. And for all the fucking around they do, they’re still one of the largest economies on Earth.

Le Pen is a nationalist who is making headway only because Macron and Hollande before him (and Sarkozy before him, etc) have been kicking the can down the road while trying to keep the status quo. The problem for Macron is that the end of the road is fast approaching, and at the moment Le Pen is the only one talking about making any drastic changes (while also promising to keep the current welfare state or expand it, plus the infamous 35-hour work week), which...just isn’t feasible and hasn’t hasn’t been for quite some time. Same with reindustrialization and tariffs...of course, to pull those off she needs to pull out of the EU, which isn’t going to happen overnight (if at all).

What she may end up doing if she were to win in 2022 (and unless things dramatically improve I wouldn’t bet against it) is basically do what Trump did when he won in 2016, namely it’s a wake-up call to the establishment that people are tired of the same old shit and want anyone offering a break from the status quo. And unlike Trump, she has a foil in Ursula von der Leyen, whose claim to fame is leaving literally every single organization she’s headed in worse shape than when she found it.

Economically I think she’s a moron, but we’ve already seen Trump and Boris get elected because they’re willing to make significant changes to the status quo. It would not surprise me if France followed suit, but while there almost certainly be a political realignment, I don’t think it will result in a coup or a revolution...people are really unhappy but we aren’t at that level right now.*

*Granted that if Macron doesn’t pull his head out of his ass and acknowledge that these guys have a point about things being out of whack, that may change.

Where you from? You seem to he invested in French politics.

Le Pen is the best way to help France as a country grow stronger by hopefully leaving the EU and NATO

 

[LordsFire]

Citation needed. Look at China, capitalism in which the corporations get the occasional pointed reminded from the glowies who holds the monopoly of force works. Look at Europe and New Deal-era America, regulations work. Then look at modern Europe and America, corporatocracy doesn't.

The New Deal was horrifically destructive, and is a huge part of what turned a brief recession into the great depression. It only 'worked' in the sense that it got FDR into power and kept him there.

Going further into this is probably fodder for a different thread.

 

[Morphic Tide]

The New Deal was horrifically destructive, and is a huge part of what turned a brief recession into the great depression.

...The New Deal was started in 1933, the Great Depression is largely considered to have started in 1929 with something insane like a third of the stock market's value evaporating quite literally overnight. So unless you think massive economic decline for about four years is "brief", the New Deal was not remotely causal, even if you refuse the idea that it had something to do with recovering from it.

 

[LordsFire]

...The New Deal was started in 1933, the Great Depression is largely considered to have started in 1929 with something insane like a third of the stock market's value evaporating quite literally overnight. So unless you think massive economic decline for about four years is "brief", the New Deal was not remotely causal, even if you refuse the idea that it had something to do with recovering from it.

I never said it was causal. I could break it down to you piece by piece, but that's not what this thread is about, which is why I just said 'a huge part of,' leaving things low-detail. The Smooth-Halley (however it's spelled) Tarrif change was the other major thing that made it drag out, and that came much earlier.

 

[Morphic Tide]

I never said it was causal. I could break it down to you piece by piece, but that's not what this thread is about, which is why I just said 'a huge part of,' leaving things low-detail.

Yes you did, you specifically said it was a huge part of what turned it from a brief recession into the Great Depression. That is, in fact, a causal statement, and the point I made remains in that it came after it was firmly established as the Great Depression.

 

[LordsFire]

Yes you did, you specifically said it was a huge part of what turned it from a brief recession into the Great Depression. That is, in fact, a causal statement, and the point I made remains in that it came after it was firmly established as the Great Depression.

No, I did not. The way I look at the statement I made apparently does not hold the same meaning as it does when you look at it. This is a miscommunication, nothing more.

 

[JagerIV]

Does anyone have any information on how bad the islam issue is for France? I'm getting quite frustrated by how difficult any of this info is, and how it all seems to be old info. Did they stop publishing stuff around 2016? Are things being scrubbed? Or do I just not know where to look?

 

[Airedale260]

Where you from? You seem to he invested in French politics.

Le Pen is the best way to help France as a country grow stronger by hopefully leaving the EU and NATO

Same as you, the United States.

It’s not so much that I’m invested in French politics as I am just interested in keeping an eye on what goes on in the world generally as a hobby. As for Le Pen, it’s not so much that I disagree with her overall objective of trying to improve the French economy and labor market so much as I disagree with her strategy of how to do that.

When I say she’s a combination of a nationalist and a socialist, I mean that she wants to spend huge amounts of money France doesn’t have in an attempt to prop up a system that isn’t working in combination with spending more money to try and bring industry that was outsourced back in the name of economic patriotism. Which should tell you it isn’t feasible if the only way to make something work is government subsidies.

I’m not saying this because I’m in favor of the status quo, but rather because while Le Pen is proposing serious changes, there is a very good chance that her efforts will blow up in her face because reality is quite stubborn. And that if that happens, it will only further strengthen the current establishment, making reform even more difficult and creating further headaches down the road.

As for the EU and NATO...I’m not a fan of the former so if France decides to withdraw, meh. It’ll screw the EU, sure, but there’s a very good chance it’ll implode thanks to Italy anyway. As for how NATO holds France back, I don’t see how withdrawing would strengthen France. Sure, upping their military budget would be nice, but they could do that without withdrawing, not to mention their attempts to replace the CdG are going to be harder because I seriously doubt we would look kindly on Newport News helping a country that is inclined to be friendly towards Russia.

 

[Zachowon]

Same as you, the United States.

It’s not so much that I’m invested in French politics as I am just interested in keeping an eye on what goes on in the world generally as a hobby. As for Le Pen, it’s not so much that I disagree with her overall objective of trying to improve the French economy and labor market so much as I disagree with her strategy of how to do that.

When I say she’s a combination of a nationalist and a socialist, I mean that she wants to spend huge amounts of money France doesn’t have in an attempt to prop up a system that isn’t working in combination with spending more money to try and bring industry that was outsourced back in the name of economic patriotism. Which should tell you it isn’t feasible if the only way to make something work is government subsidies.

I’m not saying this because I’m in favor of the status quo, but rather because while Le Pen is proposing serious changes, there is a very good chance that her efforts will blow up in her face because reality is quite stubborn. And that if that happens, it will only further strengthen the current establishment, making reform even more difficult and creating further headaches down the road.

As for the EU and NATO...I’m not a fan of the former so if France decides to withdraw, meh. It’ll screw the EU, sure, but there’s a very good chance it’ll implode thanks to Italy anyway. As for how NATO holds France back, I don’t see how withdrawing would strengthen France. Sure, upping their military budget would be nice, but they could do that without withdrawing, not to mention their attempts to replace the CdG are going to be harder because I seriously doubt we would look kindly on Newport News helping a country that is inclined to be friendly towards Russia.

France has the strongest western European military.
They want out of NATO perhaps to be able to dictate how they do things. If it wasn't for Biden I would say they would perhaps try to rework a alliance with the US that isn't as strict or something.

France is going to yurt, but it will recover for as long as they leave the EU and can focus entirely on being Nucelar dependent

 

[Cherico]

France has the strongest western European military.
They want out of NATO perhaps to be able to dictate how they do things. If it wasn't for Biden I would say they would perhaps try to rework a alliance with the US that isn't as strict or something.

France is going to yurt, but it will recover for as long as they leave the EU and can focus entirely on being Nucelar dependent

The number of countries that have the mix of tech, geography, milatary power and demographics to make it in a post globalist world are small.

They consist of the united states, France, The UK, Turkey, Japan, Argentina, and mexico.

The French can go it alone and do quite well for themselves, germany not so much.

 

[Zachowon]

The number of countries that have the mix of tech, geography, milatary power and demographics to make it in a post globalist world are small.

They consist of the united states, France, The UK, Turkey, Japan, Argentina, and mexico.

The French can go it alone and do quite well for themselves, germany not so much.

Germany basically relies on the EU at this point.