Omaha Beach fails on June 6th 1944

sillygoose

Well-known member
But what if only one of the five D-Day landings had failed? The obvious candidate is the assault on Omaha Beach, which historically did come close to disaster:

It is the morning of June 6, 1944. From the bridge of the heavy cruiser USS Augusta, General Omar N. Bradley peers through binoculars at the French beachhead code-named Omaha. The sky is overcast, the waters choppy, and the view ashore partially obscured by smoke and explosions. But the sketchy information Bradley has received, and everything he sees, indicates that the assault on Omaha is failing. Elements of two divisions—the veteran 1st Infantry and the untested 29th Infantry—are desperately trying to fight their way from the shoreline to the bluffs from which Germans manning mortars and machine guns are devastating everything on the beach. The American forces are all but paralyzed.

Bradley feels helpless. He will describe these hours as "a time of grave personal anxiety and frustration." Eventually he decides the landing force has suffered an irreversible catastrophe, and orders the men ashore to withdraw. This proves impossible. Communications breakdowns keep many landing craft from even heading to shore. Of those that do, many are sunk en route or destroyed on the beach while they wait for pinned-down infantrymen to crawl toward them. For all practical purposes, the landing force is wiped out.

This devastating defeat leaves a 37-mile gap between the Canadian and British beaches to the east and the other American beach, Utah, to the west. Bradley knows that the 4th Infantry Division landings at Utah have gone unexpectedly smoothly, with only light casualties. But he also knows that with the Omaha force liquidated, Germans at that beach could shift toward Utah and launch a deadly attack on its left flank. Bradley could transfer elements of the Omaha force not yet ashore to reinforce Utah. In practice, this is impossible. To reposition, the 4th's follow-on waves must reach shore, which will take hours. With no contingency for the 1st and 29th to land at Utah, the flotilla of transports and warships assigned to Omaha likely would unleash chaos if suddenly inserted into the fleet assigned to Utah.

The above scenario is historically correct in most respects. The Omaha landing did come within a hair's breadth of failing. As Adrian R. Lewis points out in Omaha Beach: A Flawed Victory, the rigid plan for the landing simply fell apart amid the withering German fire, the dispersal of small units, and the deaths of many officers and NCOs. Soldiers ashore had to improvise a new approach. Only their valor in inching toward and destroying obstacles barring access to the beach exits prevented catastrophe. Bradley did consider evacuating Omaha Beach, but most military historians agree that he could not have done so, and that given the intricate nature of the D-Day landings, the transfer of the 1st and 29th to Utah likely would have meant chaos, not salvation, for the 4th Division troops already ashore.

Proponents of counterfactual theory speak of "nodes of contingency"—points in time at which events that went one way could have gone another. The D-Day invasion involved so many nodes of contingency that it would be absurd to say with certainty what would have occurred had the Omaha assault failed. It is reasonably certain that forces on the three Canadian and British beaches—Gold, Juno, and Sword—would have retained their foothold on the French coast. D-Day, then, would not have met with complete disaster.

But it is plausible that all available German forces near Utah, including the 352nd Infantry Division that historically defended Omaha Beach, would have descended on Utah Beach to contain or even destroy the invading forces. Airdrops of two American paratroop divisions behind Utah Beach to secure bridges and causeways the 4th Division needed to break out of the beach were historically scattered widely. They would have been unlikely to survive a well-organized German counterattack aimed at Utah. If the Allied presence on Utah remained intact, those forces' isolation from the other beaches would have made an advance inland difficult if not impossible. Even the Allies' overwhelming command of the air would probably not have sufficed to retrieve the situation.

Historically the Allies required six weeks to break out of their beachhead, due largely to the French hedgerow countryside that provided the German troops with a succession of nearly perfect defensive positions.

Loss of Omaha would have made an Allied breakout even more difficult. Loss of both Omaha and Utah might well have transmogrified the D-Day landings into something resembling the January 1944 landings at Anzio, Italy, where the beachhead became a trap that held the equivalent of three British and American divisions until May—able to break out thanks only to the approach of Allied forces creeping up the Italian mainland. Normandy offered no such option. Of Anzio, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill said, "I had hoped we were hurling a wildcat onto the shore, but all we got was a stranded whale." Overlord might have become a stranded whale, with implications far more serious than at Anzio.

In war, structural forces often count for a great deal. The American arsenal of democracy, for example, guaranteed that Japan could not win the Pacific War. But sometimes the actions of a few men are crucial. That was so at Omaha Beach, where a few hundred soldiers may have saved the entire Normandy invasion from calamity.

This article brings up an interesting What If about the failure of only one of the Normandy beaches. I'm curious about the implications for the rest of the campaign and war. Please read the article before commenting, since a lot of the objections that would normally come up are addressed by the author.

The POD is that Kampfgruppe Meyer, the corps reserve waiting south of Omaha but historically was ordered back and forth to deal with various reported threats that didn't end up existing, is instead properly directed toward Omaha before noon on June 6th. It avoids the air attacks it endured once the skies cleared after noon and doesn't get ordered to go after Gold Beach in the afternoon as per OTL. So it makes the break out from Omaha impossible and convinces Bradley to cancel further landings after the 2nd wave is defeated.

This means V Corps cannot get to shore for several days, as all the landing schedules for other beaches are too stacked and rigid to let them in. Survivors of the 1st division aren't able to be deployed, nor are the 29th, 30th, and 2nd armored divisions. The Rangers also have to leave Pont Du Hoc, so that remains in German hands and a 37 miles gap between Utah and Gold beaches is the result. Not only that, but it forces the British forces at Gold to divert units that would have otherwise pushed south to expand the flank toward Omaha beach.

The historical first such operation:

A big problem due to the 352nd division now being freed up to oppose them on June 7th. Obviously not the entire division, just most of it. Which means 50th infantry and later on 7th Armoured are diverted from their historical push south from the beaches. That means Panzer Lehr and 2nd Panzer can move in to contain Gold beach as well as support the 352nd division, something important since the 3rd Parachute division then also appears too about the same time. That least the British-Canadian beaches contained, since they don't have enough of a beachhead to deploy more units and the Mulberry Harbors can't be built at Omaha or Port-en-Bessin.

Utah similarly cannot link up with Omaha then and faces more German divisions while isolated. A big problem after the 10th of June:
The 17th SS PzG Division counter-attacked the 101st Airborne on 13 June. Initially successful, its attack was thrown back by Combat Command A (CCA) of the U.S. 2nd Armored Division.
There would be no 2nd Armored deployed without Omaha, so the 17th SS would route the 101st from Carentan and block any further effort to break out to the south.

That's also not to mention that Pont du Hoc staying in German hands means they have the ability to observe and shell Utah beach. The Maisy battery would also not be silenced, as the Rangers came through the Omaha beachhead to launch their attack on June 9th:

So it would seem the invasion would be contained in a way even worse than Anzio. The Germans couldn't push them back into the sea due to NGF and air support, but could keep them stuck indefinitely and unable to deploy more divisions. The question is how long the Allies want to maintain their beachheads and sustain casualties holding them, as the Germans are bound to reinforce and increase artillery fire on them.

There is then the chance of a follow on invasion in the South of France, which would be reinforced by the V Corps:
Which could siphon off German forces from Normandy to counter them, though that probably wouldn't make much difference in Normandy and once launched the Pas de Calais reserves the Germans kept to hedge against a 2nd invasion could be moved to South France. That is assuming that the Germans don't shift forces east in July to help the desperate defensive battle around Warsaw.

Does it make sense to maintain costly bridgeheads until August to launch that invasion? Certainly waiting for Stalin to launch Bagration on June 22nd is a worthwhile goal to keep them going. That offensive in the east would certainly happen, though by July things would be very different, as the II SS Panzer would stay in Ukraine and be a big problem for the Lvov-Sandomierz offensive and 1st and 2nd SS Panzer divisions could be spared for helping IV SS at Warsaw, which likely would mean the loss of the entire 2nd Tank army (nearly destroyed IOTL) and damage to several other Soviets units:

So what then? Normandy turns into Anzio, but worse for the Allies, while Bagration is still a disaster for Germany but the aftermath would see the Soviets getting hurt pretty badly too around Moscow and the Baltic area. Lwow-Sandomierz might fail if II SS Panzer corps is still in place. Dragoon could still happen after the Germans shift forces east once Normandy is contained and help roll up the southern front in France, but would that be enough to break the deadlock around Normandy?

What happens with a worse summer 1944 for the Allies and the Germans sparing themselves major disasters? Could it be enough to tip the 1944 election against FDR? IOTL he was heavily boosted from being behind due to a successful Normandy and capture of Paris in August.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Interesting idea, I would expect that the allies would seek to hold on until Bagration is well under way and probably seek to turn it into a killing zone for the German counter attacks and general forces in the region but the key issues would be how securely the three eastern beachheads could be supplied. Plus what does the US decide to do since by this time, although its overwhelmingly British/Canadian forces ashore they hold the wipe hand in the western theatres. Suspect they would decide to keep pumping in forces and moving out exhausted ones as long as that's practical while awaiting the results of the landing in S France, If that doesn't succeed them expect an evacuation before the autumn storms makes resupply too difficult.

Bagration is still likely to be a disaster for the Germans as they have a commander who is committed to holding an exposed frontal position rather than flexible defence. However in the aftermath, especially if Germany can switch more forces from the west the Soviets could suffer heavier losses in counter attacks on their forward spearheads.

Possibly instead of S France forces are switched to further landings in Italy, with proper support for them and better leadership on the ground. Coupled with the wearing down of German forces there prospects are available for break-throughs to advance into central Italy but at a slower rate than OTL. This would make attacks into S Germany/Bohemia regions by strategic air units more practical among other things.

I can't see the Democrats losing the election although possibly the increased stress sees FDR's health collapse earlier and he either dies before the election or has to withdrawal on health grounds - in which case his successor as Democratic candidate is likely to get a measure of sympathy vote. Either way the war will continue although its likely to end somewhat latter, probably with more of central Europe, including possibly Bavaria and Denmark say ending up in the Soviet sphere and the 1st nuclear uses could be in Europe.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Interesting idea, I would expect that the allies would seek to hold on until Bagration is well under way and probably seek to turn it into a killing zone for the German counter attacks and general forces in the region but the key issues would be how securely the three eastern beachheads could be supplied. Plus what does the US decide to do since by this time, although its overwhelmingly British/Canadian forces ashore they hold the wipe hand in the western theatres. Suspect they would decide to keep pumping in forces and moving out exhausted ones as long as that's practical while awaiting the results of the landing in S France, If that doesn't succeed them expect an evacuation before the autumn storms makes resupply too difficult.

Bagration is still likely to be a disaster for the Germans as they have a commander who is committed to holding an exposed frontal position rather than flexible defence. However in the aftermath, especially if Germany can switch more forces from the west the Soviets could suffer heavier losses in counter attacks on their forward spearheads.

Possibly instead of S France forces are switched to further landings in Italy, with proper support for them and better leadership on the ground. Coupled with the wearing down of German forces there prospects are available for break-throughs to advance into central Italy but at a slower rate than OTL. This would make attacks into S Germany/Bohemia regions by strategic air units more practical among other things.

I can't see the Democrats losing the election although possibly the increased stress sees FDR's health collapse earlier and he either dies before the election or has to withdrawal on health grounds - in which case his successor as Democratic candidate is likely to get a measure of sympathy vote. Either way the war will continue although its likely to end somewhat latter, probably with more of central Europe, including possibly Bavaria and Denmark say ending up in the Soviet sphere and the 1st nuclear uses could be in Europe.
All good points, thought after Anzio I suspect the Allies would be wary about further Italian landings. South of France is relatively weakly held and with more American divisions available that route would seem to offer the best return on investment especially given Stalin's demands for France to be the 2nd front. Also more success in Italy only means getting checked at the Alps in the end, even if it extends bomber ranges, so from a ground perspective it is somewhat of a blackhole strategically. Stalin's demands would likely be the deciding factor IMHO given how worried the Americans were that Stalin might drop out.

Likely the Allies would try to use their firepower to deplete and lock in German forces in Normandy while rotating division as much as possible, though the question is whether the Germans take the bait and launch offensives or whether they content themselves with another Anzio. I think the latter is more likely after the initial couple of weeks, as the NGF and air supremacy of the Allies would make any offensives to push them into the sea impossible. Anzio, Salerno, and Sicily would have taught some lessons about that. Logistically the Allies can still land things on the beaches, as that was the majority of supply anyway, but lack of the Mulberries or a working harbor would create a lot of problems.

Agree about the Democrats and the election; barring an outright defeat of the landings defeat in the election is unlikely, but things would be much tighter in the vote and overall much more stressful, so perhaps FDR dies a bit earlier as a result, as he was not doing well by November 1944.

Not sure this means the Soviets necessarily do better, especially if the counterattacks in July-August 1944 are heavier around Warsaw. Loss of the 2nd Tank Army, which nearly happened but lack of forces to tighten the pocket let most of it break out, though with substantial loss in equipment, would be a significant blow. Recoverable, but still not something that could be easily shrugged off. Having a second SS Panzer corps (by this point larger and better equipped than a standard panzer corps) would inflict substantial damage to Soviet forces above the already serious blows they suffered IOTL. After all they largely were static east of Warsaw from July 1944 to January 1945 after Bagration culminated as it was. 2nd Guards Tank Army was quite important to the Vistual-Oder offensive (technically their role was the Warsaw-Poznan operation), so having to rebuild it from scratch will take time and have an efficiency penalty as they will probably having to strip tank corps from infantry armies (those not used to tank army level operations) to rapidly rebuild it within 5 months. Coupled with heavier losses around Warsaw in 2nd half of 1944 the Soviets won't be able to do as well, especially if Normandy-France is far less punishing than OTL for the Germans. Their extra forces will be sent east until August when Dragoon or whatever other landing happens in France or elsewhere.

Then there is the role of the II SS Panzer corps in Ukraine. Historically they were a reinforcement sent west in June after the landings, but would be unnecessary here. So they stay and fight the Lwow-Sandomierz offensive. A powerful 40-50k man armored corps would have an impact, as it was the army group North Ukraine's army group reserve. IIRC that boosts the armor within the army group from 420 AFVs to close to 650. About 1/3rd more. That of course is hardly enough to stop the Soviets, but it would seriously hinder them and inflict substantially heavier losses and perhaps prevents the Sandomierz bridgehead. Question would be how it was used and what extra forces survive as a result (not encircled like say all the forces at Brody).

The next question is whether there is something like Falaise that still happens or if the Germans pull back in relatively good order from France. Sparing something like 100,000 casualties and equipment would have a rather large impact. However the Allies probably also avoid as heavy of casualties trying to break out of Normandy.

Lots of butterflies from this.
 
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History Learner

Well-known member
Personally I think the political angle is being severely under-counted. A shift of ~2.5% in votes to Dewey is enough to flip the election to him via the Electoral College, resulting in a map like this:

genusmap.php


This could be important, as the war time low of American opinion polling was the Spring of 1944, specifically April-May. This coincides with the Anzio landings and increasingly heavy casualties with little in the way of gain for them. This same dynamic looks set to play out on a larger scale in Normandy; at the least, this scenario has the four American divisions (82nd, 101st, 29th and 1st) either effectively destroyed or rendered combat ineffective with huge losses. Add in WWI-style warfare in Normandy favoring the German defenders, and it's likely the mood is going to be very sour domestically that Summer.

Would it continue into the fall? If a breakout happens, maybe not, but I think there's reason to believe there won't be one:

Likely the Allies would try to use their firepower to deplete and lock in German forces in Normandy while rotating division as much as possible, though the question is whether the Germans take the bait and launch offensives or whether they content themselves with another Anzio. I think the latter is more likely after the initial couple of weeks, as the NGF and air supremacy of the Allies would make any offensives to push them into the sea impossible. Anzio, Salerno, and Sicily would have taught some lessons about that. Logistically the Allies can still land things on the beaches, as that was the majority of supply anyway, but lack of the Mulberries or a working harbor would create a lot of problems.

Problem with relying on firepower through things like NGF and Airpower is that on June 18th, the largest Channel Storm in quite some time hits without warning and shuts down both for three days. In addition, historically it stopped the unloading of supplies and arrival of reinforcements too. All of this combined creates the perfect opening for the Germans to attack and decisively defeat the Allied landings. In that eventuality I cannot see FDR winning in November, Stalin dropping out seems more likely and in the short term I cannot see Dragoon going ahead; it was always intended as complimentary to Normandy and Ike would probably be very concerned with risking a landing given the lack of a strategic lock in.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Results - FDR lost,Sralin continue war,but without success like in OTL/ Group army Cente is not destroyed/, they probably tale only part of Poland in this scenario.
Romania is still fighting.

In 1945 we have Republican president aware of Manhattan program - so,he send less weapons to soviets,who get little till Berlin get muschroom or two.

End of war,soviets do not get part of Europe,except Baltic states and maybe part of Poland and Romania.
Althought,considering that Poland was ally,republican president would told soviets to run from Poland,too.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Results - FDR lost,Sralin continue war,but without success like in OTL/ Group army Cente is not destroyed/, they probably tale only part of Poland in this scenario.
Romania is still fighting.

In 1945 we have Republican president aware of Manhattan program - so,he send less weapons to soviets,who get little till Berlin get muschroom or two.

End of war,soviets do not get part of Europe,except Baltic states and maybe part of Poland and Romania.
Althought,considering that Poland was ally,republican president would told soviets to run from Poland,too.
This POD wouldn't prevent Bagration though it could limit the damage in July-August, especially in the Ukraine region. If FDR loses in November 1944 it is extremely doubtful the war lasts long enough for nukes to matter.

Personally I think the political angle is being severely under-counted. A shift of ~2.5% in votes to Dewey is enough to flip the election to him via the Electoral College, resulting in a map like this:

genusmap.php


This could be important, as the war time low of American opinion polling was the Spring of 1944, specifically April-May. This coincides with the Anzio landings and increasingly heavy casualties with little in the way of gain for them. This same dynamic looks set to play out on a larger scale in Normandy; at the least, this scenario has the four American divisions (82nd, 101st, 29th and 1st) either effectively destroyed or rendered combat ineffective with huge losses. Add in WWI-style warfare in Normandy favoring the German defenders, and it's likely the mood is going to be very sour domestically that Summer.

Would it continue into the fall? If a breakout happens, maybe not, but I think there's reason to believe there won't be one:



Problem with relying on firepower through things like NGF and Airpower is that on June 18th, the largest Channel Storm in quite some time hits without warning and shuts down both for three days. In addition, historically it stopped the unloading of supplies and arrival of reinforcements too. All of this combined creates the perfect opening for the Germans to attack and decisively defeat the Allied landings. In that eventuality I cannot see FDR winning in November, Stalin dropping out seems more likely and in the short term I cannot see Dragoon going ahead; it was always intended as complimentary to Normandy and Ike would probably be very concerned with risking a landing given the lack of a strategic lock in.
All very good points. Didn't realize the election was that close, but then I never looked at the EC votes.
There is also the impact on the British here. If Normandy is at best an Anzio then it is possible given the V-1 missiles won't be disrupted here by the advance of the Normandy front that before FDR even is up for a vote that Churchill loses a no-confidence vote in parliament.

Historically the storm on the 18th only delayed the British advance, the US forces were able to keep attacking throughout the storm period. So the Germans might not be able to counterattack and drive them out even if they are contained. Though it would certainly be their best chance. 2nd SS would start arriving on the 15th, but wouldn't entirely arrive until the 20th IIRC. Even a kampfgruppe would be helpful against an isolated Utah beach. If even one beachhead is crushed though I think it would likely cause the others to be evacuated and since Utah is the most isolated that maybe the prime one to deal with, especially if the Germans are able to take back or keep Carentan and smash up the 101st. If that happens then likely the Wallies are pretty much finished with the war, as the political backlash from a major defeat like that and the continued and likely enhanced V-1 attacks, plus Stalin's reaction, are all going to mean political death for FDR and Churchill. Even with Stalin's success in the East, likely muted compared to OTL given the changes, then a separate peace likely happens after Stalin runs his summer 1944 offensives to get a maximally favorable negotiated deal.
 

ATP

Well-known member
This POD wouldn't prevent Bagration though it could limit the damage in July-August, especially in the Ukraine region. If FDR loses in November 1944 it is extremely doubtful the war lasts long enough for nukes to matter.


All very good points. Didn't realize the election was that close, but then I never looked at the EC votes.
There is also the impact on the British here. If Normandy is at best an Anzio then it is possible given the V-1 missiles won't be disrupted here by the advance of the Normandy front that before FDR even is up for a vote that Churchill loses a no-confidence vote in parliament.

Historically the storm on the 18th only delayed the British advance, the US forces were able to keep attacking throughout the storm period. So the Germans might not be able to counterattack and drive them out even if they are contained. Though it would certainly be their best chance. 2nd SS would start arriving on the 15th, but wouldn't entirely arrive until the 20th IIRC. Even a kampfgruppe would be helpful against an isolated Utah beach. If even one beachhead is crushed though I think it would likely cause the others to be evacuated and since Utah is the most isolated that maybe the prime one to deal with, especially if the Germans are able to take back or keep Carentan and smash up the 101st. If that happens then likely the Wallies are pretty much finished with the war, as the political backlash from a major defeat like that and the continued and likely enhanced V-1 attacks, plus Stalin's reaction, are all going to mean political death for FDR and Churchill. Even with Stalin's success in the East, likely muted compared to OTL given the changes, then a separate peace likely happens after Stalin runs his summer 1944 offensives to get a maximally favorable negotiated deal.
You need somebody who want talk.Sralin wanted as much as possible,and Hitler do not agree to any peace.
Only Himmler could kill him succesfully and take power - but,Allies and even sralin could not made peace with SS.
Even if they wanted.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
Historically the storm on the 18th only delayed the British advance, the US forces were able to keep attacking throughout the storm period. So the Germans might not be able to counterattack and drive them out even if they are contained. Though it would certainly be their best chance.

The key sticking point being, as you said, historically. You've completely changed the situation around Utah Beach as you noted:

There would be no 2nd Armored deployed without Omaha, so the 17th SS would route the 101st from Carentan and block any further effort to break out to the south.

That's also not to mention that Pont du Hoc staying in German hands means they have the ability to observe and shell Utah beach. The Maisy battery would also not be silenced, as the Rangers came through the Omaha beachhead to launch their attack on June 9th:

Utah Beach is contained to such a degree as to limit the amount of forces that can be deployed prior to the storm, and with the Maisy Battery still in play any deployments and stocking of supplies is at risk leading up to the attack. It's a far weaker beachhead before the counter-attack even starts as result, which gives the Germans the perfect opening to attack it once things get weakened.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
You need somebody who want talk.Sralin wanted as much as possible,and Hitler do not agree to any peace.
Only Himmler could kill him succesfully and take power - but,Allies and even sralin could not made peace with SS.
Even if they wanted.
Hitler did want peace, just not what Stalin offered. He repeatedly tried to deal with the West, but they refused. In fact they'd likely have refused to do so with ANY German if they could avoid it. But here it would be difficult to avoid if worse came to worse. The bulk of the security establishment outside of the FDR inner circle seemed to be favorable to making peace with Germany to contain the Soviets after they were weakened enough, several offers from the resistance to kill or capture Hitler were seriously entertained, but FDR killed those initiatives.
The key sticking point being, as you said, historically. You've completely changed the situation around Utah Beach as you noted:



Utah Beach is contained to such a degree as to limit the amount of forces that can be deployed prior to the storm, and with the Maisy Battery still in play any deployments and stocking of supplies is at risk leading up to the attack. It's a far weaker beachhead before the counter-attack even starts as result, which gives the Germans the perfect opening to attack it once things get weakened.

True. However that change doesn't necessarily mean the beachhead could be crushed, but it could easily then be contained and bled. The question is how much bleeding the Allies are willing to do.
Map21.jpg


As we can see by the 14th of June the situation around Utah would be still somewhat Allied favorable even without Omaha other than with the 101st around Carentan. The lack of a link up and no ability to push southwest via Carentan would be a big problem, but the lack of German reserves would give the Allies a chance to expand like IOTL. 3rd Parachute would probably just reinforce the 352nd to deal with Gold beach and the flank threat there. 17th SS would probably take over the from any 352nd unit screening the Utah area. With 5 divisions in the Utah beachhead it would be tough to really dislodge, though likely the 101st would need major help containing the 17th SS, which means less expansion by the 3 division to the west on the map.

BTW the storm was on the 19th-20th:

So the 2nd SS could theoretically mostly be present to help the attack by then, as it likely won't be needed to help near Caen ITTL. Actually looking at the British-Canadian beaches they'd be in a tricky spot without the US V corps to cover their left flank and the crush of panzer divisions moving in from the 10th onwards.
 

Buba

A total creep
Nothing really changes. There was no danger of the 21st Army Group being "pushed into the sea". Maybe a slightly longer grinder in the Bocage, that's all.

As to a vote in Parliament - Churchill had the survivability of a cockroach, he'll be fine. The dude became PM after losing Norway, remember?
 

ATP

Well-known member
Hitler did want peace, just not what Stalin offered. He repeatedly tried to deal with the West, but they refused. In fact they'd likely have refused to do so with ANY German if they could avoid it. But here it would be difficult to avoid if worse came to worse. The bulk of the security establishment outside of the FDR inner circle seemed to be favorable to making peace with Germany to contain the Soviets after they were weakened enough, several offers from the resistance to kill or capture Hitler were seriously entertained, but FDR killed those initiatives.


True. However that change doesn't necessarily mean the beachhead could be crushed, but it could easily then be contained and bled. The question is how much bleeding the Allies are willing to do.
Map21.jpg


As we can see by the 14th of June the situation around Utah would be still somewhat Allied favorable even without Omaha other than with the 101st around Carentan. The lack of a link up and no ability to push southwest via Carentan would be a big problem, but the lack of German reserves would give the Allies a chance to expand like IOTL. 3rd Parachute would probably just reinforce the 352nd to deal with Gold beach and the flank threat there. 17th SS would probably take over the from any 352nd unit screening the Utah area. With 5 divisions in the Utah beachhead it would be tough to really dislodge, though likely the 101st would need major help containing the 17th SS, which means less expansion by the 3 division to the west on the map.

BTW the storm was on the 19th-20th:

So the 2nd SS could theoretically mostly be present to help the attack by then, as it likely won't be needed to help near Caen ITTL. Actually looking at the British-Canadian beaches they'd be in a tricky spot without the US V corps to cover their left flank and the crush of panzer divisions moving in from the 10th onwards.
Hitler speak with soviets about peace from 1941 till 1943 - but,both ALWAYS wonted MOAR.So,notching would happen there till somebody kill either Hitler or Sralin - becouse both was alpha males.

And,USA was still Republic - tey could gave Poland to genocider sralin becouse all media showed him as nice uncle joe.
But,they coud not gave Poland to Hitler,becouse the same media showed him as monster he really was.

So,we would have atomic muschrooms on Berlin as result.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Hitler speak with soviets about peace from 1941 till 1943 - but,both ALWAYS wonted MOAR.So,notching would happen there till somebody kill either Hitler or Sralin - becouse both was alpha males.

And,USA was still Republic - tey could gave Poland to genocider sralin becouse all media showed him as nice uncle joe.
But,they coud not gave Poland to Hitler,becouse the same media showed him as monster he really was.

So,we would have atomic muschrooms on Berlin as result.
Not in 1941 AFAIK. In 1942 we have very little details and in 1943 Stalin's demands are about more and they refused to accept anything less, which is why negotiations stopped. Hitler just wanted where the lines already were to be the peace border with swaps if necessary to make it acceptable to both sides. In 1944 they never got past trying to reestablish contact.

The US wasn't a republic during or really before or after the war. It was a dictatorship of the oligarchs. Probably always has been honestly, since it was the oligarchs who set it up in the first place and turned on their soldiers from the revolution once they had power.

Hitler already had Poland. If defeated the American people at a certain point were not going to sacrifice more for Poland, Britain, France, or the USSR, since for them it was a war of choice, not necessity.

And remember even as late as spring 1945 the US had zero idea nukes were even going to happen that year, so don't expect them to stick out the war just because of the potential for nukes.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Not in 1941 AFAIK. In 1942 we have very little details and in 1943 Stalin's demands are about more and they refused to accept anything less, which is why negotiations stopped. Hitler just wanted where the lines already were to be the peace border with swaps if necessary to make it acceptable to both sides. In 1944 they never got past trying to reestablish contact.

The US wasn't a republic during or really before or after the war. It was a dictatorship of the oligarchs. Probably always has been honestly, since it was the oligarchs who set it up in the first place and turned on their soldiers from the revolution once they had power.

Hitler already had Poland. If defeated the American people at a certain point were not going to sacrifice more for Poland, Britain, France, or the USSR, since for them it was a war of choice, not necessity.

And remember even as late as spring 1945 the US had zero idea nukes were even going to happen that year, so don't expect them to stick out the war just because of the potential for nukes.
Nukes - no alone,but B.29 production for Europe...germans could do little against them,even with jets.
And those oligarchs could not just stop war against dude who was made moster in their media./and really was monster in that case/

What i try to say - USA could gave poland to monster sralin,becouse media showed him as uncle joe.Could not gave to Hitler,becouse they showed monster as monster in that case.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Nukes - no alone,but B.29 production for Europe...germans could do little against them,even with jets.
And those oligarchs could not just stop war against dude who was made moster in their media./and really was monster in that case/

What i try to say - USA could gave poland to monster sralin,becouse media showed him as uncle joe.Could not gave to Hitler,becouse they showed monster as monster in that case.
Problem was by 1945 the B-29 was required in Asia and there were not enough of them to send to Europe. This came up in January 1945. They weren't needed given that the Lancaster, B-17, and B-24 among other bombers were already enough and already in large quantities. So they are a non-factor.

As you are not an American I don't think you really understand how the US media could switch on a dime and the US public would go along. Though before D-Day the US public wasn't really interested in the war in Europe, which panicked the US oligarchs, so they set up an even more intense propaganda campaign that didn't really start working until 1945 when the first camps were overrun. Here that could well not happen.

My point is that even by 1945 Hitler was not viewed as the monster you think by the average American. Especially as compared to today, so negotiations if the US oligarchs stopped trying to agitate for war at all costs were very possible, the propaganda machine would just need to adjust to sell a new message.

After all both the Nazis and Soviets went from the worst enemies in the world in 1939 to allies.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Problem was by 1945 the B-29 was required in Asia and there were not enough of them to send to Europe. This came up in January 1945. They weren't needed given that the Lancaster, B-17, and B-24 among other bombers were already enough and already in large quantities. So they are a non-factor.

As you are not an American I don't think you really understand how the US media could switch on a dime and the US public would go along. Though before D-Day the US public wasn't really interested in the war in Europe, which panicked the US oligarchs, so they set up an even more intense propaganda campaign that didn't really start working until 1945 when the first camps were overrun. Here that could well not happen.

My point is that even by 1945 Hitler was not viewed as the monster you think by the average American. Especially as compared to today, so negotiations if the US oligarchs stopped trying to agitate for war at all costs were very possible, the propaganda machine would just need to adjust to sell a new message.

After all both the Nazis and Soviets went from the worst enemies in the world in 1939 to allies.
What nazis? GERMANS.
And,germans could become allies in one day in 1939,becouse it was totalitarian states.

You have your answer.

USA had ruling oligarchs - BUT,they do not have power of sralin or Hitler.If they wanted change narration,they need time for that.
Few months at least - and,by the time it was done after FDR lost election,USA would have nukes and do not need making peace with anybody.

Only difference - since Republicans would not be soviet useful idiots,they would not share world with soviets,but take it all.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
What nazis? GERMANS.
And,germans could become allies in one day in 1939,becouse it was totalitarian states.

You have your answer.

USA had ruling oligarchs - BUT,they do not have power of sralin or Hitler.If they wanted change narration,they need time for that.
Few months at least - and,by the time it was done after FDR lost election,USA would have nukes and do not need making peace with anybody.

Only difference - since Republicans would not be soviet useful idiots,they would not share world with soviets,but take it all.
You should see the Polish diplomatic documents the Germans released in 1940 then, they talked about the massive influence the media had on American public opinion. The US was a dictatorship of sorts, just a much more sophisticated on based on media propaganda. Germany was in a lot of ways less controlling even if they had more formal methods of control over media.
It wouldn't take much for the US to change on a dime. See how Stalin became a friend as soon as the USSR was invaded, something unthinkable prior to 1941.

Huh? November 1944 was the election. Nukes weren't available for use until August 1945. No one knew if they actually worked until July. Not only that, but the US public has no idea about nukes until after they were first used, so if they demand to end the war due to casualties they won't know about nukes being developed and the US government won't tell them.

You act like the US is a dictatorship when you claim that the Republicans would simply take over the world without the Soviets, so which is it? BTW the Republicans in the 1940s were not globalists, they were opposing globalism and the war (except against Japan).
 

ATP

Well-known member
You should see the Polish diplomatic documents the Germans released in 1940 then, they talked about the massive influence the media had on American public opinion. The US was a dictatorship of sorts, just a much more sophisticated on based on media propaganda. Germany was in a lot of ways less controlling even if they had more formal methods of control over media.
It wouldn't take much for the US to change on a dime. See how Stalin became a friend as soon as the USSR was invaded, something unthinkable prior to 1941.

Huh? November 1944 was the election. Nukes weren't available for use until August 1945. No one knew if they actually worked until July. Not only that, but the US public has no idea about nukes until after they were first used, so if they demand to end the war due to casualties they won't know about nukes being developed and the US government won't tell them.

You act like the US is a dictatorship when you claim that the Republicans would simply take over the world without the Soviets, so which is it? BTW the Republicans in the 1940s were not globalists, they were opposing globalism and the war (except against Japan).
1.Dictatorship - yes.Ruled media - yes again.Sralin become buddy in 1941 - yes.
But,in 1941 they were not in war with sralin,and do not described him as monster.

When they were in war with germans,and described tem as monsters in media.Could they changed it ,and made public belive in good germans ?

Sure,they could - but not in month,they need at least year for that.And then they would have nukes arleady.

2.So,8 monts from elections till they knew,that nukes worked.Considering,that they need at least year to change minds of american public about germans,they still do not need to made peace.

3.You claim that USA were dictatorship,i merely agree with you.And,becouse of that,Republicans would not share world with soviets,but take it all.
You do not need to be globalist to take power over the world when you could do that - and USA in 1945 could do that,but choosed to share it with soviets.
 

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