NGSW and other Military Rifle R&D

[UltimatePaladin]

@Aaron Fox
What new ground did the OICW tread, in your opinion?

EDIT: As far as I can tell, most of what it did was integrate a grenade launcher, rifle, and scope... and fail to replace the M4.

 

[Aaron Fox]

@Aaron Fox
What new ground did the OICW tread, in your opinion?

EDIT: As far as I can tell, most of what it did was integrate a grenade launcher, rifle, and scope... and fail to replace the M4.

The biggest new ground it broke was sensor-fused High-Low grenades with the sensor integration being the second biggest new ground it broke (the scope was more than a simple scope, but more akin to a sensor array with integrated fire control systems and a fire control microcomputer that happened to have an optic sight... think what Mass Effect small arms are fluffed to be and not what they're displayed in gameplay and you wouldn't be far off), but a lot of the problem with the OICW was that 1) sensor fuse technology wasn't there yet (especially at 25mm caliber, right now 30mm is the smallest without sacrificing lethality too much), 2) the miniaturization of various sensor components for the scope assembly wasn't as easy as once thought (for the time), 3) the switch from a PDW caliber weapon (the original concept -from what I understand- had the MP7 as the kinetic weapon system) to an assault rifle weapon really screwed things up. You must note that this is based on rather hard data showing that it isn't small arms that did the majority of the killing but explosives, be 40mm High-Low grenades to 500-pound bombs and beyond. The OICW's sensor fused grenade was to 1) maximize lethality while 2) minimizing collateral damage. So the idea was that, since small arms provided the least kills, give everyone a grenade launcher that does most of the work for them, thus vastly improving the firepower and thus survivability of the US soldier.

However, the idea of the OICW is more viable now than ever, surprisingly enough, given the advent of Metal Storm technology and advancements in sensor, sensor fuse, fire control, and computer miniaturization. One of the last things that Metal Storm produced was the 3GL system, which is a 40mm caseless stacked grenade launcher. Last I've checked, each 40mm round that the 3GL uses is lighter than the High-Low 40mm that the military uses.



An artist's rendition of how it would look like including ammunition:

The artist did a rendition of interestingly ingenious use of the 3GL style launcher for the OICW concept, but that is sadly lost to the internet after the artist vanished. I was only lucky enough to only a handful of these still around myself (and the grenade launcher above is one of those that I had to save and put into my Deviantart stash).

 

[Laskar]

However, the idea of the OICW is more viable now than ever, surprisingly enough, given the advent of Metal Storm technology and advancements in sensor, sensor fuse, fire control, and computer miniaturization. One of the last things that Metal Storm produced was the 3GL system, which is a 40mm caseless stacked grenade launcher. Last I've checked, each 40mm round that the 3GL uses is lighter than the High-Low 40mm that the military uses.

Neat idea, but I can't help but notice that they only ever fired explosive grenades remotely.
One problem that Metal Storm had was that the bullets would have slightly different points of impact due to the different barrel lengths each bullet experienced. I imagine this would be exacerbated in a grenade launcher. I get that grenades aren't exactly precision weapons, but would this shift the point of impact enough that you could miss a window?

 

[Aaron Fox]

Neat idea, but I can't help but notice that they only ever fired explosive grenades remotely.
One problem that Metal Storm had was that the bullets would have slightly different points of impact due to the different barrel lengths each bullet experienced. I imagine this would be exacerbated in a grenade launcher. I get that grenades aren't exactly precision weapons, but would this shift the point of impact enough that you could miss a window?

From what I understand about the 3GL system, not really. For one the bullets are particularly large and (comparatively) hefty compared to Metal Storm's first outing with their ridiculous 10k RoF system. This is a semi-auto weapon system where the user can adjust. Hell, one idea for this system that I brainstormed with someone was basically using the 3GL into a revolver system to allow to chose different ammo types (HE, Smoke, and something else in the brainstorm)...

 

[Zachowon]

So Task and Purpose has a video about itz more indepth. With new info.
It is an analysis as well as a breakdown of everything about it.

 

[Aaron Fox]

So Task and Purpose has a video about itz more indepth. With new info.
It is an analysis as well as a breakdown of everything about it.

So they've finally got the FCS system for the OICW light and durable enough to be implemented. Not bad.

 

[Zachowon]

More info about SIGs entry

 

[Emperor Tippy]

Not watching it, but no.

Even if you produced a strictly superior (in all aspects) infantry rifle, it wouldn't replace the M4.

Ammo wise, 5.56 isn't going anywhere unless it is a MASSIVE improvement; cost of replacing the ammo stockpiles and infrastructure is simply too substantial.

And constrained to 5.56, you aren't going to get something notably superior to the AR-15 platform.

The US military isn't changing until and unless: 1) defensive technology obsoletes 5.56 or 2) a fundamental improvement in firearms or ammunition design offers SUBSTANTIAL improvements over 5.56.

 

[Zachowon]

Not watching it, but no.

Even if you produced a strictly superior (in all aspects) infantry rifle, it wouldn't replace the M4.

Ammo wise, 5.56 isn't going anywhere unless it is a MASSIVE improvement; cost of replacing the ammo stockpiles and infrastructure is simply too substantial.

And constrained to 5.56, you aren't going to get something notably superior to the AR-15 platform.

The US military isn't changing until and unless: 1) defensive technology obsoletes 5.56 or 2) a fundamental improvement in firearms or ammunition design offers SUBSTANTIAL improvements over 5.56.

Yes the US Army is going to replace the M4.
They have a round that is better and lighter then the 5.56mm....

But you should watch both Tippy. It will make your counter arguments

 

[Aaron Fox]

Not watching it, but no.

Even if you produced a strictly superior (in all aspects) infantry rifle, it wouldn't replace the M4.

Ammo wise, 5.56 isn't going anywhere unless it is a MASSIVE improvement; cost of replacing the ammo stockpiles and infrastructure is simply too substantial.

And constrained to 5.56, you aren't going to get something notably superior to the AR-15 platform.

The US military isn't changing until and unless: 1) defensive technology obsoletes 5.56 or 2) a fundamental improvement in firearms or ammunition design offers SUBSTANTIAL improvements over 5.56.

Here's the thing, Tippy, body armor effective against even AP cored intermediate rounds have been proliferating in the last decade or so. It's getting to the point that insurgents of Afghanistan are getting their hands on them. With such armor readily available (and with metallurgy getting 'fun' in the protection department thanks to metal foams and making composites out of them), our propellants literally topping out at 1.8km/s at best (and this is for tank guns) and ETC small arms (which have a minimum of 2km/s with a ceiling of around 4km/s) a better part of a century away, the US Army is foreseeing that the only way forward is going to be increasing caliber. The US has already done this for their IFVs, with 30mm guns being the 'get something quick' solution and the US Army eying on 40mm and 50mm guns for the next generation (and please note, this is also happening across NATO, with most NATO countries opting for the 40mm Bofors with polymer/telescopic cases).

 

[Zachowon]

Here is a more indepth look at the SIG entry by TFB TV

 

[DocSolarisReich]

I remain skeptical that Congress values grunts lives enough to appropriate money for infantry small arms 'overmatch' of body armour. Yes, body armour is beginning to proliferate. Does this suddenly invalidate 5.56? Very much no. The casualty producing weapons are still belt fed GPMGs and indirect artillery fires.

 

[Zachowon]

I remain skeptical that Congress values grunts lives enough to appropriate money for infantry small arms 'overmatch' of body armour. Yes, body armour is beginning to proliferate. Does this suddenly invalidate 5.56? Very much no. The casualty producing weapons are still belt fed GPMGs and indirect artillery fires.

With how the military sees future of combat.
It wont be the large open we currently are in. It will be like trench and in tunnes and etc.
And the Army has gone out and said they are fully going through with this.
When we are getting closer and closer to an actual fight with a near peer nation. Better to be prepared

 

[DocSolarisReich]

With how the military sees future of combat.
It wont be the large open we currently are in. It will be like trench and in tunnes and etc.
And the Army has gone out and said they are fully going through with this.
When we are getting closer and closer to an actual fight with a near peer nation. Better to be prepared

The Army cannot tell Congress what it spends money on, Congress tells the Army what it spends money on. The Army can study this issue all it likes, unless (masssive) funds are appropriated, no full switchover will happen. Instead, SOCOM will get new toys in the chest and we will start talking about the new hawtness in 10 years when the next vapourware next gen program begins.

 

[Zachowon]

The Army cannot tell Congress what it spends money on, Congress tells the Army what it spends money on. The Army can study this issue all it likes, unless (masssive) funds are appropriated, no full switchover will happen. Instead, SOCOM will get new toys in the chest and we will start talking about the new hawtness in 10 years when the next vapourware next gen program begins.

The Army already allocated the funds for it from congress...
They have already got a FY of 2022 to start sending it to line units once they chose

 

[DocSolarisReich]

The Army already allocated the funds for it from congress...
They have already got a FY of 2022 to start sending it to line units once they chose

Funds for the competition. They still haven't selected a winner.

 

[Zachowon]

Funds for the competition. They still haven't selected a winner.

No, but the Army probably has the funds set aside for them to buy en mass.
The Army seems very sure in this one.

 

[DocSolarisReich]

No, but the Army probably has the funds set aside for them to buy en mass.
The Army seems very sure in this one.

The Army was sure about M14, Comanche, Crusader, XM8, and M551 Sheridan. Even things that actually get officially adopted can be un-adopted. The fact is that no one cares about infantrymen or winning small arms firefights enough to make the massive investment necessary to replace the entire logistics stockpile for 5.56 and spare parts.

 

[Zachowon]

The Army was sure about M14, Comanche, Crusader, XM8, and M551 Sheridan. Even things that actually get officially adopted can be un-adopted. The fact is that no one cares about infantrymen or winning small arms firefights enough to make the massive investment necessary to replace the entire logistics stockpile for 5.56 and spare parts.

Except the Army is switching its mindset and needs a weapon to do that with.
Everything about modern day Army is changing from the last 20 years.
We are no longer focusing in COIN.
We are focusing on Force on Force. Preparing for war with a major country.
The US Army sees the need for a new rifle to fight the enemy woth real body armor.

 

[DocSolarisReich]

Except the Army is switching its mindset and needs a weapon to do that with.
Everything about modern day Army is changing from the last 20 years.
We are no longer focusing in COIN.
We are focusing on Force on Force. Preparing for war with a major country.
The US Army sees the need for a new rifle to fight the enemy woth real body armor.

The Army wants the budget to fight WWIII, they don’t actually want to fight it. More importantly, neither does Congress. And going to a bulkier, more volumetric round before you go poking the bear and the dragon is the kind of pants on head stupid that only big army is capable of.