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Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
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Oryx Has Put Up an Article Attempting to Record All of Poland's Recent and Planned Purchases of Heavy Military Equipment.


Almost 1400 Tanks, almost 1500 IFV's, 300 MRAPs, 1150 MLRS and Artillery Systems, over fifty Air Defense Systems, 130+ Helicopters, UAV's, UCAV's including 24 Bayraktar Drones, 80 Jet Fighters, and a half dozen naval ships.

Oh and a submarine program... among other things.
 

Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Oryx Has Put Up an Article Attempting to Record All of Poland's Recent and Planned Purchases of Heavy Military Equipment.


Almost 1400 Tanks, almost 1500 IFV's, 300 MRAPs, 1150 MLRS and Artillery Systems, over fifty Air Defense Systems, 130+ Helicopters, UAV's, UCAV's including 24 Bayraktar Drones, 80 Jet Fighters, and a half dozen naval ships.

Oh and a submarine program... among other things.
Well this looks shocking, only problem is that it is the result of two things, the unpredictable reduction of the Polish army below the level assumed by the General Staff to be safe, and the mindless approach to equipping the armed forces and the Polish armaments industry over the past 30 years.

Land Forces, the incessant deletion of more essential military units, and the unleashing of the Polish 3rd Generation tank program through the "free" delivery of Leo2 which killed the program. Keeping in line for 50 years(sic!) one and the same BWP-1 vehicle without modernizing it even once, despite domestic attempts in the 1990s to make a new one or modernize it. The famous Krabs were also thrown in the trash in the beginning and the main originator of this was kicked out of the job for political reasons, because he demanded something.

Airborne Forces, the ousting of the Polish jet fighter program, the result? The full loss of any jet production capacity. And as a result, the state of aircraft became miserable.
Ignoring the needs of the Air Force for modern helicopters and so on,

Navy. In a nutshell? It's a joke, it has become less than a shadow, she de facto cannot perform her duties. And how its modernization was approached is well captured by the "Gawron" aka ORP Ślązak program. This one is not at all some super ship, as it is an ordinary corvette that was built for 18 years! And the end result is far from the original expectations.
The submarines are no longer suitable for further service, they need to be replaced because modernization is a waste of money.

To sum up, what we are doing now is a sudden and painful awakening of decision-makers that we are the ones who don't have the time and our military is in a catastrophic condition. So they are trying to make up for as much as three decades in a decade.
It's only recently that something is happening, and looking at interviews with relevant people it's going in the right direction. Surely the Miecznik program will be carried out by professionals and will not end up like Gawron.
 

Buba

A total creep
1 - those purchases cover 25 years or so (i.e. "order today, get it in 3-5 years' time");
2 - many are knee jerk reactions to the Ukrainian War AND cover 20+ years of neglect;
3 - on one hand Poland could had gone the Turkish or South Korean route, on the other - economies of scale. Plus for e.g. jets the engines and most of electronics, or the licenses at least, would come from abroad anyway;
4 - regardless of how bad (good?) the Polish Govt's had been, IMO the Polish Armed Forces are in better shape, material wise, than the Bundeswehr. A low bar, I admit ...
5 - yes, Polish military shipbuilding is a joke. Poland is competing with India and the Telas programme here.
 

Buba

A total creep
Of course a case can be made that Poland should had ordered e.g. 2000 domestic upgrades of the T-72. Between '97 and today - an quite unimpressive 80 a year.
Fact is - central (post 2000) AD and western (post 1990) Europe IMO had criminally disarmed itself.
 

Marduk

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Of course a case can be made that Poland should had ordered e.g. 2000 domestic upgrades of the T-72. Between '97 and today - an quite unimpressive 80 a year.
Fact is - central (post 2000) AD and western (post 1990) Europe IMO had criminally disarmed itself.
And they would still be no better than everyone else's T-72M upgrades. AKA the stuff now being given away to Ukraine because it has no potential beyond that.
Well this looks shocking, only problem is that it is the result of two things, the unpredictable reduction of the Polish army below the level assumed by the General Staff to be safe, and the mindless approach to equipping the armed forces and the Polish armaments industry over the past 30 years.

Land Forces, the incessant deletion of more essential military units, and the unleashing of the Polish 3rd Generation tank program through the "free" delivery of Leo2 which killed the program. Keeping in line for 50 years(sic!) one and the same BWP-1 vehicle without modernizing it even once, despite domestic attempts in the 1990s to make a new one or modernize it. The famous Krabs were also thrown in the trash in the beginning and the main originator of this was kicked out of the job for political reasons, because he demanded something.
Should have moved forward with K2 cooperation at most a decade ago. As the saying goes, better late than never.
BMP-1 modernizations would have been a money sink with little value, see what other countries that went this route are doing. It's just not a competitive IFV hull for XXI century standards, plain and simple. Borsuk should have gotten much more effort behind it earlier, but as above, better late than never.
Krabs have hit a manufacturing capacity limit between domestic and international orders. It's semi-compatible K9 or being hundreds of SPGs short for the foreseeable future.
Airborne Forces, the ousting of the Polish jet fighter program, the result? The full loss of any jet production capacity. And as a result, the state of aircraft became miserable.
Ignoring the needs of the Air Force for modern helicopters and so on,
What do we want airborne forces for? Have you heard the story of VDV and of Ukraine's airborne forces? Not a valid priority.
What jet fighter program? Powered by hopium? The last fighter jets made in Poland were licensed Mig-17's. Are we trying to compete with North Korea here? We simply had no chance competing in a world with Eurofighter, Grippen, Rafale and cheap F-16's.
Helicopter wise it was looking a bit better (which is still damn bad), but organization went as usual, and one recent event may be a reason why some of the attempts at saving the helicopter industry failed.
Well guess that's one reason why the big plans with Motor Sich cooperation in helicopters failed.
Navy. In a nutshell? It's a joke, it has become less than a shadow, she de facto cannot perform her duties. And how its modernization was approached is well captured by the "Gawron" aka ORP Ślązak program. This one is not at all some super ship, as it is an ordinary corvette that was built for 18 years! And the end result is far from the original expectations.
The submarines are no longer suitable for further service, they need to be replaced because modernization is a waste of money.
I'm willing to be a bit more forgiving in navy failures as it's rationally the lowest priority of armed forces branches. It's also a perfect example of how badly going domestic at any cost can go wrong. You end up paying "any cost", and after a long time of uncertainty you don't even get much of a ship out of it.
 

Buba

A total creep
And they would still be no better than T-72M upgrades. AKA the stuff now being given away to Ukraine because it has no potential beyond that.
Since 1991 the mission of the Polish Army had been to fight the USSR/Russia.
Ukraine is proving that T-72 and T-80 are good enough.
 

Marduk

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Moderator
Staff Member
Since 1991 the mission of the Polish Army had been to fight the USSR/Russia.
Ukraine is proving that T-72 and T-80 are good enough.
Only because Russians suck in using theirs. Also T-80's are two steps above T-72M.
 

ATP

Well-known member
And they would still be no better than everyone else's T-72M upgrades. AKA the stuff now being given away to Ukraine because it has no potential beyond that.

Should have moved forward with K2 cooperation at most a decade ago. As the saying goes, better late than never.
BMP-1 modernizations would have been a money sink with little value, see what other countries that went this route are doing. It's just not a competitive IFV hull for XXI century standards, plain and simple. Borsuk should have gotten much more effort behind it earlier, but as above, better late than never.
Krabs have hit a manufacturing capacity limit between domestic and international orders. It's semi-compatible K9 or being hundreds of SPGs short for the foreseeable future.

What do we want airborne forces for? Have you heard the story of VDV and of Ukraine's airborne forces? Not a valid priority.
What jet fighter program? Powered by hopium? The last fighter jets made in Poland were licensed Mig-17's. Are we trying to compete with North Korea here? We simply had no chance competing in a world with Eurofighter, Grippen, Rafale and cheap F-16's.
Helicopter wise it was looking a bit better (which is still damn bad), but organization went as usual, and one recent event may be a reason why some of the attempts at saving the helicopter industry failed.
Well guess that's one reason why the big plans with Motor Sich cooperation in helicopters failed.

I'm willing to be a bit more forgiving in navy failures as it's rationally the lowest priority of armed forces branches. It's also a perfect example of how badly going domestic at any cost can go wrong. You end up paying "any cost", and after a long time of uncertainty you don't even get much of a ship out of it.
1.It would be PT91,PT94,and PT 97 Goryl.Better or as good as anything Moscov could send.
2.We could simply buy South African G5 and G6 howitzers.And made Krab with it,too.
3.PZL P.230F Skorpion was promising.We could made 100 or more.
4.We should buy license for those norvegian stealth corvettes.
 

Marduk

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Moderator
Staff Member
1.It would be PT91,PT94,and PT 97 Goryl.Better or as good as anything Moscov could send.
And how would they be better from Slovak and Czech ones? Which they are getting rid of. No, they aren't better than T-90's. They have worse armor than T-72B, and they still have better versions of the 125mm than PT-97 would have.
It would be throwing good money after bad. The facts are we have no MBT composite armor technology, and we can only get up to date with that through a co-production deal with K2 or something like that. And without it, we can only make obsolete MBTs, so what's the point. So that our army can have obsolete MBTs for the price of new ones and our politicians can pat themselves on the back about how stronk our industry is?

2.We could simply buy South African G5 and G6 howitzers.And made Krab with it,too.
Why go make deals with them, adding politics and complexity (not very pro-western country), when we already have a good deal and a similar model in K9.

3.PZL P.230F Skorpion was promising.We could made 100 or more.
For who? It would be Su-25 for poor people. We could sell them to third world, maybe, but a lot of countries make similar planes, like Czech L-159 - they sold it to Iraq, and it also doubles as a trainer. Just 100 made. Not a good business idea.
And that's all on the back of worldwide popular L-39 trainer, almost 3k sold during Cold War, yet Czechs don't have any plans for completely new developments in even the same area. For comparison our Iskra, of similar class, sold only 424.
Ironically, Americans have made a much better plane under a similar concept and the same name.
Except no one bought it yet...

4.We should buy license for those norvegian stealth corvettes.
Can our shipyards make them up to standards, and cheaper than Spain (yes, they are built in Spain)? If not, what are we going to do with the license? We don't need many corvettes, we can put the license in a frame and stick it on the desk of a shipyard director or something.
 

ATP

Well-known member
And how would they be better from Slovak and Czech ones? Which they are getting rid of. No, they aren't better than T-90's. They have worse armor than T-72B, and they still have better versions of the 125mm than PT-97 would have.
It would be throwing good money after bad. The facts are we have no MBT composite armor technology, and we can only get up to date with that through a co-production deal with K2 or something like that. And without it, we can only make obsolete MBTs, so what's the point. So that our army can have obsolete MBTs for the price of new ones and our politicians can pat themselves on the back about how stronk our industry is?


Why go make deals with them, adding politics and complexity (not very pro-western country), when we already have a good deal and a similar model in K9.


For who? It would be Su-25 for poor people. We could sell them to third world, maybe, but a lot of countries make similar planes, like Czech L-159 - they sold it to Iraq, and it also doubles as a trainer. Just 100 made. Not a good business idea.
And that's all on the back of worldwide popular L-39 trainer, almost 3k sold during Cold War, yet Czechs don't have any plans for completely new developments in even the same area. For comparison our Iskra, of similar class, sold only 424.
Ironically, Americans have made a much better plane under a similar concept and the same name.
Except no one bought it yet...


Can our shipyards make them up to standards, and cheaper than Spain (yes, they are built in Spain)? If not, what are we going to do with the license? We don't need many corvettes, we can put the license in a frame and stick it on the desk of a shipyard director or something.
1.We could buy swiss 120mm gun for their abadonned tank for PT97.Or from Sweden.
I wish we could just produce Strv2000 ,but probably not possible for us.

2.Do that after 1990.We would have superb guns 25 years ago.And buy Brazilian missile launchers,too.

3.No matter who whould buy it,we would still have 100 of them or more.

4.Before Balcerowicz fucked out economy? sure.
Why do you think germans payd Tusk from the beginning? they wanted concurention gone.And,they almost succed.
 

Marduk

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Moderator
Staff Member
1.We could buy swiss 120mm gun for their abadonned tank for PT97.Or from Sweden.
I wish we could just produce Strv2000 ,but probably not possible for us.
If we do that, we need a new, different turret and loading system, with all the associated costs. We already have a new engine. So the only thing left over from T-72 is the hull, which isn't even a good part because it has poor armor. And we can't make a better one because we struggle with the technology for that (see: problems with Krab hulls). Hence the only chance to get into competitive technological level in tanks is in fact licensing/coproduction deals South Korea.
2.Do that after 1990.We would have superb guns 25 years ago.And buy Brazilian missile launchers,too.
We didn't have the funding then. Nor the right government.
Brazil's missile launchers back then were no better from our domestic ones.
3.No matter who whould buy it,we would still have 100 of them or more.
Do we have a terrorist filled desert or jungle to use these planes on? Guess not, so it's pointless for us. Note that Ukraine is asking for F-15 and F-16, not light attack/trainer planes that many countries could supply them cheaply, like said Czech L-39 variants. These planes are kinda suicidal to use in their conditions.
4.Before Balcerowicz fucked out economy? sure.
Why do you think germans payd Tusk from the beginning? they wanted concurention gone.And,they almost succed.
The Spanish company building them is not German...
EU shipbuilding is commercially unviable on larger scale, and we would be insane to put so much money in military shipbuilding to sustain a healthy domestic industry (as i said, navy is a third priority for Poland and there is no argument otherwise).
ship1.png

China, South Korea and Japan are the only 3 players that matter in world shipbuilding. It's not just that Polish shipbuilding is dead, German and even American ones are also on life support with no hope of improvement.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
Poland and Georgia are Launching a Joint Enterprise to Manufacture Polish WB Group UAV's and Loitering Munitions in Georgia. The first drones produced by this Georgian-Polish enterprise are expected to be delivered to the Georgian armed forces by the end of 2022.

 

WolfBear

Well-known member
China, South Korea and Japan are the only 3 players that matter in world shipbuilding. It's not just that Polish shipbuilding is dead, German and even American ones are also on life support with no hope of improvement.

Why exactly is East Asian shipbuilding much more vibrant than white shipbuilding is?
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
But Japan and SK are also a part of the West, technically speaking. So, I wanted a term that meant Western but excluded the Western East Asian countries.
 

Marduk

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Moderator
Staff Member
Why exactly is East Asian shipbuilding much more vibrant than white shipbuilding is?
Best of the technology West has, now with more practical experience too, but with lower prices, better industrial synergy (remember how western neolibs together with greens pushed out the steel industry and the like? guess what industry needs a lot of quality steel) and far less union/regulation bullshit. With China stressing the lower prices part.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
After Estonia and the United States, Norway will be the third buyer of the Polish made Piorun MANPADs.

Aviacionline said:
The contract is worth nearly US$ 35 million and provides for the delivery of several launch sets and several hundred missiles, which will be operated mainly by the Norwegian Army. Norway will begin taking delivery of the Piorun during 2023.




Also Bulgaria signed an agreement desiring to purchase an additional 8 F-16C/D's from the United States, increasing the total number to 16 to replace Bulgaria's fleet of MiG-29's that it wants to retire soon.

FlyingMag said:
The letter of offer and acceptance (LOA) for the $1.3 billion purchase was signed November 28, Janes reported. The deal is the second purchase of eight F-16 C/D Block 70s for the Balkan country, and will allow the Bulgarian Air Force to equip a full squadron upon delivery, which will begin in 2027.

In the meantime, however, Bulgaria wants to also acquire fighters to use until the batch of F-16s are delivered, such as Dassault Mirage 2000 or Dassault Rafale fighters from France, or Saab Gripen fighters from Sweden, Janes said.

 

Buba

A total creep
Poland, pursuing its "3% GDP for defence" goal, the Lower Chamber voted a 2023 budget including 97,4 billion PLN on military spending.
That's more or less 22B USD or 20,5B Euro
Now this goes to the Senate, split 46:41:13 between Ruling Party, Main Opposition and Plankton*.
In the Lower Chamber the Main Opposition and Plankton voted "nay".

* not a party per se, but a popular, somewhat derogatory umbrella term for small, usually irrelevant parties.
 
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