History Myths and Misconceptions of History you Hate

GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
That Israel attacked first and is the aggressor of the Six Day War.

Israel was given an ample casus beli by any international standard before the war started. Egypt has unilaterally and illegally killed its trade access to half the world. Also it should be hard to fault a preemptive strike when your self-described enemies literally amass their armies on your borders (from three different sides) and openly blare on the radio about their intent to commit genocide on you next week, once their preparations are finished. How can someone conclude from that that Israel's strike was an "aggression" or "expansionist" is beyond me.
 

Comrade Clod

Gay Space Communist
That Israel attacked first and is the aggressor of the Six Day War.

Israel was given an ample casus beli by any international standard before the war started. Egypt has unilaterally and illegally killed its trade access to half the world. Also it should be hard to fault a preemptive strike when your self-described enemies literally amass their armies on your borders (from three different sides) and openly blare on the radio about their intent to commit genocide on you next week, once their preparations are finished. How can someone conclude from that that Israel's strike was an "aggression" or "expansionist" is beyond me.

Well technically people are correct that it attacked first, insofar as it struck the first significant blow.

Its just that nobody cares because of some of the above mentioned reasons.
 

GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
Well technically people are correct that it attacked first, insofar as it struck the first significant blow.

Its just that nobody cares because of some of the above mentioned reasons.
Given these reasons would it be reasonable to call Israel "the aggressor" or "an expansionist regime" with the implication that Israel attacked its neighbors without provocation with territorial expansion in mind, thereby falsely invoking the Nazi comparisons they like to use so much?

Also closing the straights of Tiran to Israeli ships could be constrained as a form of attack.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
My big one is that tribal and pre-agricultural cultures were noble savages who who did not war or if they did it was just ritual warfare without much bloodshed. From my study tribal warfare is more violent, more unrestricted, more frequent whereas warfare as it gets civilized seems to be more ritualized than the tribal variety and per capita less violent. The noble savage is pure myth making to the highest extent.
 
"The world was peaceful, then everything changed when the white man attacked"

I'm quoting a video I once watched don't remember if it was parody or serious but the over simplification to outright manipulation of the perspective of thousands of years of history is just flat out propaganda.

History is complicated, no its not pretentious to say that, people are multifaceted, we did bad things in the past, we are trying to fix past mistake, we are not to be chained to the sins of our ancestors we should instead of pointing fingers at people long dead go and work for a better future.


American Concentration Camps

Nope as scummy as they were, internment camps were much better living conditions compared to what the Axis did to our POWs or even the Holocaust.

Grandad simply avoided being arrested by hiding in the forest until the war was over.
 
D

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"The world was peaceful, then everything changed when the white man attacked"

I'm quoting a video I once watched don't remember if it was parody or serious but the over simplification to outright manipulation of the perspective of thousands of years of history is just flat out propaganda.

History is complicated, no its not pretentious to say that, people are multifaceted, we did bad things in the past, we are trying to fix past mistake, we are not to be chained to the sins of our ancestors we should instead of pointing fingers at people long dead go and work for a better future.


American Concentration Camps

Nope as scummy as they were, internment camps were much better living conditions compared to what the Axis did to our POWs or even the Holocaust.

Grandad simply avoided being arrested by hiding in the forest until the war was over.

In the United States, or in another place with camps?
 
In the United States, or in another place with camps?

He hid in the forests of Hawaii so technically the US at the time. I don't have the full story as he is unable to tell me but for the longest time I was least to believe he was in an interment camp.

Great Grandad listed himself as Hawaiian and delivered him food. He had left Japan years earlier for unspecified reasons.

Probably doesn't help that a distant cousin of theirs was in one of the attack squadrons sent to Pearl Harbor.
 
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Lots of moral relativism regarding the Allies in WW2, now ignoring the Soviet Union some douche's like Potential History and The Distributist argue that no the Allies don't have a better reason than the Axis for causing civilian causalities even if the Axis did way worse deliberately.

So the comparison is Arthur Harris being evil for doing more bombings than most of the Allies and that's being contrasted to human experimentation, poison gas against civilians, the largest mass rape in modern history, cannibalism, death marches, genocide, I think you get the picture.

Dresden Bombing causalities, in actuality it was Nazi propaganda for the numbers. Other Nazi propaganda that people believe in is the Winter winning in Russia, Poles cavalry charging tanks, cowardly French, superiority of the German military, and more that I can't remember.

Napoleon being short was due to different units of measure and propaganda, he is also no friend to America even after the Louisiana Purchase we would be his next target if he took over Europe.

Truth. Crusades were mostly a reaction or counter reaction to Muslims raiding European borders.

Robert E. Lee is complicated but not irredeemably evil as he prevented the worst of insurgencies from rising in the South and aided in the Reconstruction of America. Most other Confederates were similarly complicated. The flag most frequently used today is their Navy Ensign and most likely they would be pissed with white supremacists and neo-nazis appropriating their image, especially with being associated with the latter.
 

The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
Robert E. Lee is complicated but not irredeemably evil as he prevented the worst of insurgencies from rising in the South and aided in the Reconstruction of America. Most other Confederates were similarly complicated. The flag most frequently used today is their Navy Ensign and most likely they would be pissed with white supremacists and neo-nazis appropriating their image, especially with being associated with the latter.
I never understood why Americans would appropriate a label (Nazi) owned by German National Socialists. I get why the Left calls people they don't like Nazis, but why would you associate with Hitlerism if you're an American nationalist? Doesn't make sense.
 

Comrade Clod

Gay Space Communist
Truth. Crusades were mostly a reaction or counter reaction to Muslims raiding European borders.

I dislike this narrative. The Pope didn't call a crusade when Charlemagne beat back the Ummayads, and he didn't call a crusade when the Berbers took Sicily and raided Rome itself.

The first crusade was caused by numerous complex issues, the European states were too busy infighting and not focussing their attentions outward as the Pope would have liked, the Pope himself was nominally an authority but hadn't been given much chance to exercise it due to spats with the HRE, and the freaking Byzantines of all people had just called for some assistance after losing half their empire to the Turks not half a century after the Pope and Patriarch had excomunicated each other.

The Pope just used the call for help as an excuse to get all the proverbial knuckle dragging idiots inside continental europe to travel outside it and maybe reclaim a part of the old roman empire or something.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
American Concentration Camps

Nope as scummy as they were, internment camps were much better living conditions compared to what the Axis did to our POWs or even the Holocaust.

The term "concentration camp" dates back to the Spanish reconcentrado strategy in the Cuban insurrection of the 1890s, in which the Spanish conducted mass interments of native Cubans in order to prevent them from siding with the insurrectionists. The term was then popularized by the British when they adopted the same strategy during the Second Anglo-Boer War; like the Spanish, the British insisted that they were merely "concentrating" the politically suspect minority groups and not technically imprisoning them.

It is absolutely accurate to describe the American internment of Japanese immigrants and Japanese-American citizens as "concentration camps". That phrase was literally created to describe that exact situation.

The problem is simply that "concentration camp" has become an emotionally loaded term due to its popular culture association with the Holocaust, which is somewhat ironic because the Nazis were actually very insistent on distinguishing between between concentration camps ("konzentrationslager") and extermination camps ("vernichtungslager"). The death rates associated with Nazi concentration camps do not actually make them distinct from the general use of the term, as it has been a consistent trend that all concentration programs throughout history have been characterized by harsh conditions, inadequate resources, and high death rates.

Objectively speaking, the American internment camps rank among the least horrible concentration camps in history while the Nazi internment camps rank among the most horrible concentration camps in history. That does not, however, make the American internment camps not concentration camps, because they're literally a textbook example of a reconcentrado strategy.

It was portrayed as a win because it was kept secret initially and once this fact became known the media didn't care anymore. Even today most people only know about Soviets pulling their missiles from Cuba and nothing about USA pulling their missiles out of Turkey.

In effect, the United States put a knife to the Soviet Union's throat, cried bloody murder when the Soviet Union did the same thing back, and then "negotiated" putting down both sets of throat knives while hiding a much deadlier new knife behind its back.
 
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Doomsought

Well-known member
The idea that indigenous American cultures, which had mastered some of the most profound bioengineering in history to create their agricultural schema and engaged in vast geoengineering to the point that we now have evidence the Amazon Basin was essentially turned into a food garden for them, were somehow stone-age societies which needed to be uplifted by Europeans.
They were late neolithic. Europeans, africans and asians all did the same things, and the moved on to more effecient technologies as they discovered metalworking and were able to create better tools. The only myth here is that stone aged societies were completely bereft of technology and achievements.
 
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They were late neolithic. Europeans, africans and asians all did the same things, and the moved on to more effecient technologies as they discovered metalworking and were able to create better tools. The only myth here is that stone aged societies were completely bereft of technology and achievements.


That evaluation, respectfully, Sir, completely neglects their demonstrated success at profound agronomy, control of their local biome, and artificial selection rivalling modern genetic engineering, if over greater time scales. It is a conceit to classify societies only based on the material used for tools. In quality of life the Mesoamericans greatly exceeded the bronze age civilisations of Eurasia.
 

The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
That evaluation, respectfully, Sir, completely neglects their demonstrated success at profound agronomy, control of their local biome, and artificial selection rivalling modern genetic engineering, if over greater time scales. It is a conceit to classify societies only based on the material used for tools. In quality of life the Mesoamericans greatly exceeded the bronze age civilisations of Eurasia.
I would say you are correct.

I remember reading somewhere that the Europeans brought over a huge amount of animal borne diseases to the continent of North America, such that by the time the Americans began conquering America, most of who was left was the survivor of epidemics of apocalyptic proportions. I had no doubt that Native Americans were more primitive than Europeans, but we hardly saw them at their prime. We saw what their post-apocalypse societies looked like.
 
D

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I would say you are correct.

I remember reading somewhere that the Europeans brought over a huge amount of animal borne diseases to the continent of North America, such that by the time the Americans began conquering America, most of who was left was the survivor of epidemics of apocalyptic proportions. I had no doubt that Native Americans were more primitive than Europeans, but we hardly saw them at their prime. We saw what their post-apocalypse societies looked like.

In cleanliness of individuals, bathing, availability of clean water, organised botanical gardens, hydraulics, construction, and related fields, the Mesoamericans were as fine as Roman Europe. In the whole of the Americas systematic garden agriculture using integrated silviopasturage principles to maintain bison herds or in the south Llamas and to grow meant wheels were not needed and much of the landscape had been systematically reshaped by human hands. In the north, three sisters integral agriculture, in the south, vertically staged agriculture in the Andes and systematically selected fruit and nut trees in the Amazon so a tiny number of species with extensive fruiting bodies dominated 80pct of the so-called jungle while around the massive concentric towns “terra preta” was artificially created to enhance the agriculture of Cassava and other crops.

The first Spanish explorers recorded wild stories of enormous populations and towns and cities everywhere in the American Southeast and Amazon with complex civilisations. They were later dismissed as wild tall tales. We now know their stories were perfectly correct. The second generation of explorers found only mysterious hints of rapidly overgrown ruins.

In Mesoamerica, 90pct of the population died. The ruination was total.
 

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