Crossover Muggles in Harry Potter

[Emperor Tippy]

If they're enhanced by magic but not active practitioners of Magic then yes they'd count as Muggles. Enhanced Muggles to be sure, but still Muggles. What do you think they would call such people?

Magical beings.

Enhanced muggle isn't a classification that exists.

Wizards/Witches: Human/part humans who can use magic and wield wands.
Magical Being: Intelligent creature with some degree of magical ability that isn't a witch/wizard.
Magical Beast: Magical animals.
Squibs: Humans incapable of using magic and born to at least one parent who is a Witch/Wizard.
Muggle: Non magical human being without discernible magical ancestry.

"Enhanced" muggles would be classified as magical beings if the Wizarding world became aware of them. Especially if they were enhanced via magic.

I mean Buffy isn't a muggle. She is a demonically possessed human with supernatural physical and mental capabilities. She would plainly qualify as a magical being.

Sure, the system would probably undergo revision if some kind of large scale population that is both plainly not muggles and yet is also not part of the magical world came about; but calling them muggles smacks of nothing but sophistry and rules lawyering of the worst sort.

 

[Spartan303]

Magical beings.

Enhanced muggle isn't a classification that exists.

Wizards/Witches: Human/part humans who can use magic and wield wands.
Magical Being: Intelligent creature with some degree of magical ability that isn't a witch/wizard.
Magical Beast: Magical animals.
Squibs: Humans incapable of using magic and born to at least one parent who is a Witch/Wizard.
Muggle: Non magical human being without discernible magical ancestry.

"Enhanced" muggles would be classified as magical beings if the Wizarding world became aware of them. Especially if they were enhanced via magic.

I mean Buffy isn't a muggle. She is a demonically possessed human with supernatural physical and mental capabilities. She would plainly qualify as a magical being.

Sure, the system would probably undergo revision if some kind of large scale population that is both plainly not muggles and yet is also not part of the magical world came about; but calling them muggles smacks of nothing but sophistry and rules lawyering of the worst sort.

I see. I actually did not know this as I saw nothing on this. Still, for the purposes of this debate it doesn't matter what they're called, they are not wizards or practitioners of magic.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

I see. I actually did not know this as I saw nothing on this. Still, for the purposes of this debate it doesn't matter what they're called, they are not wizards or practitioners of magic.

Then yes. I mean when you count Ascended Ancients, the Six Path Sage, Omega level mutants, etc. as muggles they do tend to be able to at least hold their own, if not easily win.

Hell, Jean Grey as White Phoenix of the Crown would count as a "muggle" under your classification. This despite the fact that she can, on whim and at will, end the entire universe and then create a new universe.

 

[Spartan303]

Then yes. I mean when you count Ascended Ancients, the Six Path Sage, Omega level mutants, etc. as muggles they do tend to be able to at least hold their own, if not easily win.

Hell, Jean Grey as White Phoenix of the Crown would count as a "muggle" under your classification. This despite the fact that she can, on whim and at will, end the entire universe and then create a new universe.

The intent was to find those who are comparable and can compete in a duel. Obviously there will be beings and entities higher tier than Wizards, but such entities are not within the spirit of the OP. I'm looking for those that can compete on equal footing.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

The intent was to find those who are comparable and can compete in a duel. Obviously there will be beings and entities higher tier than Wizards, but such entities are not within the spirit of the OP. I'm looking for those that can compete on equal footing.

Assuming that both participants start in the same empty field naked save for their weapon of choice, it is basically straight reflexes.

Wizards are more durable than normal humans but not enough to remain combat effective after being shot a few times. Give someone decently skilled an AR-15 at low ready and put them against an average wizard at fifty meters and the guy with the AR will win probably 99 times out of a hundred.

Unless the wizards first, instinctive, response to a combat situation is to basically instant cast a shield or to apparate then they will be dead (or at least disabled) before they can get a spell off.

Now give that same wizard a shield hat and they would win that duel every single time as they get to flat out ignore the bullets while having countless methods of disabling the muggle.

Now take a wizard who is wearing a full body bodyglove charmed with cushioning and unbreakable charms, sewn out of demiguise fur so as to be an invisibility "cloak", wearing glasses enchanted like Moody's eye, charmed featherlight, silent, and with temperature charms so that their body is kept at the perfect temperature and the outside exactly matches the surroundings.

That wizard could casually defeat a great many sci-fi armies on their own.

If you are looking at society vs. society then the wizards get their more esoteric abilities.
As I mentioned before, an Unplottable charm is going to screw over virtually all non magical weapons even for high end sci-fi settings. When a location can't appear on any map it becomes really hard to target that location.

Fidelius protected bases are just a flat out "I Win" level of security. The location is hidden inside a living soul and unless the possessor of the secret shares it then the location can not be found; period. How, as a society, do you fight an enemy whose bases, staging points, and infrastructure you can not locate or identify?

Apparition is, at a bare minimum, teleportation with a range measured in the dozens of miles. How do you fight an enemy that can simply pop past your defenses? In a very small area, sure. Pressure plates in the floors, physical obstructions, various sensors and automated defenses to identify and engage upon arrival, etc. But on any kind of larger scale? Detection, deterrence, and prevention is effectively impossible. And on a battlefield? Without a way to shut down apparition, you are fighting what is basically budget Nightcrawler.

Infiltration and interrogation? Polyjuice is a perfect physical transformation into anyone that you can get a biological sample from, and can be made by a 12/13 year old girl in a bathroom. Biometric security is virtually entirely worthless (gait analysis is about all that would work) and false flags become trivial. A wizard under an invisibility cloak uses Accio to summon a single hair from a target, potentially from miles away, and suddenly they are that person for all physical purposes for an hour. Imperius turns anyone but (perhaps) the exceptionally strong willed into willing slaves and could apparently be kept up for years without issue. Capture someone and with a single spell you can have them willingly spilling their guts, or making whatever confessions that you want, or becoming a suicide bomber, etc. As little as a few minutes alone with any individual and they can become a sleeper agent that you are only going to detect before they act out of character via telepathy or the like. Truth serum and legilimency also help with both.

A single adult wizard using nothing but spells/skills/items shown in the books/movies to be readily available could bring the modern world to its knees in a day or two. Apparition + Fiendfyre could have every city on the East Coast buring with sentient magical flames hostile to life. Imperio could have the PPD entirely compromised in a matter of days and then, suddenly, the Pres., VP, and entire cabinet is assassinated at the next cabinet meeting. Or compromise some to learn the needed schedules and then just put the entire top level of the executive branch under your control; and do it for multiple nations.

 

[Human Primacy]

General Grievous, depending on what source you're looking at. In the old 2D Clone Wars cartoon, he was a frightening badass who actively hunted down and exterminated Jedis. In everything else, he's a bumbling idiot who doesn't know his ass from his multiple elbows. It's still an informed trait that he kills them, but kinda divorced from what we're shown about him.

 

[Vargas Fan]

Would Paul Atreides of Dune count?

 

[Human Primacy]

I feel like the wizards of HP wouls have a very distinct early advantage in conflict with muggles, but a significant disadvantage over time, simply because magic is all they seem to know.

Now, I've only seen the movies, not read the books, so my understanding of the subject might be limited by that. And I admit the rules on how magic functions and its limits are vague enough that just about anything could be justified, since Rowling is kind of a hack.

But still, everything seems to run on magic in their world, and magic seems to be based on a series of predefined spells. All their education seems revolve around learning these spells. They seem to have a profound lack of any and all practical knowledge. There appear to be no math classes at Hogwart's. People don't seem to be crafting new spells, or have a real knowledge about how magic works. "Skill" it magic seems to be all memorization.

They seem poorly equipped to adapt to anything, as a society. Something muggles do not suffer from. If they start understanding, finding weaknesses in, countering, or even replicating magic, wizards are going to be in a tough spot, since magic appears to be their solution to everything, and the repertoire of spells seems rather static.

 

[Deleted member]

Would Paul Atreides of Dune count?

I don’t think Paul could do it... But Leto II could easily destroy wizard society.

 

[Lanmandragon]

I feel like the wizards of HP wouls have a very distinct early advantage in conflict with muggles, but a significant disadvantage over time, simply because magic is all they seem to know.

Now, I've only seen the movies, not read the books, so my understanding of the subject might be limited by that. And I admit the rules on how magic functions and its limits are vague enough that just about anything could be justified, since Rowling is kind of a hack.

But still, everything seems to run on magic in their world, and magic seems to be based on a series of predefined spells. All their education seems revolve around learning these spells. They seem to have a profound lack of any and all practical knowledge. There appear to be no math classes at Hogwart's. People don't seem to be crafting new spells, or have a real knowledge about how magic works. "Skill" it magic seems to be all memorization.

They seem poorly equipped to adapt to anything, as a society. Something muggles do not suffer from. If they start understanding, finding weaknesses in, countering, or even replicating magic, wizards are going to be in a tough spot, since magic appears to be their solution to everything, and the repertoire of spells seems rather static.

They do seem to lack institutional science. They do have some folks who invent stuff though. Snape invented new potions and techniques for potions. I also think Dumbledore has made new spells before. I'm not sure on that though.

 

[Spartan303]

Would Paul Atreides of Dune count?

Maybe. I don't know too much about him. What can he do?

 

[Emperor Tippy]

I feel like the wizards of HP wouls have a very distinct early advantage in conflict with muggles, but a significant disadvantage over time, simply because magic is all they seem to know.

Now, I've only seen the movies, not read the books, so my understanding of the subject might be limited by that. And I admit the rules on how magic functions and its limits are vague enough that just about anything could be justified, since Rowling is kind of a hack.

But still, everything seems to run on magic in their world, and magic seems to be based on a series of predefined spells. All their education seems revolve around learning these spells. They seem to have a profound lack of any and all practical knowledge. There appear to be no math classes at Hogwart's. People don't seem to be crafting new spells, or have a real knowledge about how magic works. "Skill" it magic seems to be all memorization.

They seem poorly equipped to adapt to anything, as a society. Something muggles do not suffer from. If they start understanding, finding weaknesses in, countering, or even replicating magic, wizards are going to be in a tough spot, since magic appears to be their solution to everything, and the repertoire of spells seems rather static.

Where do you get the idea that new magic isn't being developed? Snape was making spells in school, a collection of teenagers made the Marauders Map, Voldemort developed self propelled flight (considered impossible for a very long time), the Weasley Twins have an entire business built around developing new magic, new brooms are a near annual occurrence (with noticeable improvements in performance and capability).

As for a lack of practical knowledge; what did you have in mind?

 

[Human Primacy]

As I said, I've only seen the movies, and that was always the impression I got. Everything used and taught seems to be pre-existing, and there's no focus on why it works, or how, only reciting the right words and making the right motions. When someone gets a leg up on someone, it's from some esoteric knowledge that already exists, not from any sort of actual ingenuity.

For practical knowledge, I mean they appear to lack any sort of science or engineering. Or even understanding of how magic itself works. Their equivalent to a highschool teaches only magic related things. It appears that everyone's occupation is related directly to magic in some way. It paints the picture of a society reliant on these powers that just make things happen for them, that don't really understand the world around them. Like a trust fund kid that's never had to work for anything. They're essentially taken care of by their magic.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

As I said, I've only seen the movies, and that was always the impression I got. Everything used and taught seems to be pre-existing, and there's no focus on why it works, or how, only reciting the right words and making the right motions. When someone gets a leg up on someone, it's from some esoteric knowledge that already exists, not from any sort of actual ingenuity.

You do realize that in the entire series you only actually see maybe two dozen classroom scenes? And virtually everyone of them also involves some out of the ordinary event that distracts from the class?

Hell, per movie canon there is actually a class called Magical Theory that they take in at least first year.

For practical knowledge, I mean they appear to lack any sort of science or engineering. Or even understanding of how magic itself works. Their equivalent to a highschool teaches only magic related things. It appears that everyone's occupation is related directly to magic in some way. It paints the picture of a society reliant on these powers that just make things happen for them, that don't really understand the world around them. Like a trust fund kid that's never had to work for anything. They're essentially taken care of by their magic.

Of course everything is related directly to magic. Science and engineering aren't useful in day to day life for wizards. The Burrow, for example, is explicitly said to not actually be physically possible without magic holding it up.

Science and Engineering are also based on principles and truisms that simply do not apply to wizards.

I would also argue that it is the muggles who don't understand the world around them. Wizards can casually violate the laws of thermodynamics and biology. They can warp space and time, interact with souls, manipulate probability, create full blown AI's, etc.

Science is about understanding the world around you. You make observations of said world, analyze the information gathered, make predictions based upon that analysis, and then test those predictions. Muggles in the HP world are entirely ignorant of a fundamental part of reality on par with the Electromagnetic Force or the like.

I mean think about what Dementors say about life and the mind? Or ghosts? Or Horcrux's? It is provably true in the HP universe that consciousness is not a product of the physical mind but is instead a product of a "soul".

 

[Human Primacy]

That they only show the classrooms a few times doesn't change the impression they give.

The wizards have awareness of things the muggles don't have access to, but awareness doesn't necessarily equate to usefulness, or even understanding. Their knowledge of the magical world will not help them understand how the muggle world works, but the science of the muggles will absolutely help them understand the magic world, once exposed to them. Muggles are far more capable of learning what makes magic tick, than wizards are capable of doing the same with technology. If you're in a position that your enemy can reverse engineer your weapons and tools, but you scarcely have the means to do the same, you have a long term disadvantage.

The fact that the wizards keep their existence concealed, by penalty of law, says a lot about what even they think would happen if exposed.

Of course that assumes Rowling even had a reason for the secrecy beyond the need to justify fitting it into the real world and having the changeling fantasy.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

That they only show the classrooms a few times doesn't change the impression they give.

Except that the impression they give on a cursory read isn't actually accurate. Draco Malfoy knows what Helicopters and Hang Gliders are. The Muggle Studies class has to write an assignment on why electricity is so important to muggles. An Auror replaced the Prime Ministers personal secretary and did the job better than the person he replaced and well enough that no one noticed that he was a wizard. The Ministry of Magic casually rescheduled a phone call between the British PM and a foreign President.

Snape's potions book in the Half Blood Prince is filled with potions research. Magical brooms are actively being improved on a constant basis (we see three iterations of noticeably improved brooms over a three year period in canon; Nimbus 2000, 2001, and Firebolt). Fred & George got an entire stores worth of products ready for market, while undergoing their magical education, in under seven years; and made things like Extendable Ears and Shield Hats in short order in response to need.

Hermione calls out Ron for not paying attention in class when she talks about Gamp's Laws of Elemental Transfiguration.

Snape had the defense class write an entire essay on Werewolves and the only thing unique about it was the timing; not that they were having to write indepth essays on magical creatures.

The idea that magic is some fixed thing that isn't being actively studied or evolving flies entirely in the face of canon.

The wizards have awareness of things the muggles don't have access to, but awareness doesn't necessarily equate to usefulness, or even understanding. Their knowledge of the magical world will not help them understand how the muggle world works, but the science of the muggles will absolutely help them understand the magic world, once exposed to them. Muggles are far more capable of learning what makes magic tick, than wizards are capable of doing the same with technology. If you're in a position that your enemy can reverse engineer your weapons and tools, but you scarcely have the means to do the same, you have a long term disadvantage.

Did We Overlook The Most Important Wizard In Harry Potter?

<b>This random in The Leaky Cauldron might be the only wizard who can explain the science of magic.</b>

www.buzzfeed.com

That is a wizard reading a Brief History of Time by Hawking.

Do you actually have any canon support for your claims? Because I'm not aware of any, you appear to instead just be spouting the fanon that has polluted the HP community for a decade or more at this point. Most of said fanon being directly contradicted by the books and/or movies.

The fact that the wizards keep their existence concealed, by penalty of law, says a lot about what even they think would happen if exposed.

Of course that assumes Rowling even had a reason for the secrecy beyond the need to justify fitting it into the real world and having the changeling fantasy.

The canonical reason for the Statute of Secrecy and its maintenance is that wizards were tired of their muggle neighbors bothering them for magical solutions to their problems. It had nothing to do with fear of muggles.

These are the same wizards that fairly casually mind raped New York City to cover up a Statute breach. And the same wizards who possessed the ability to, individually and without any real effort, burn entire muggle cities to dust. And the same wizards that literally have a spy planted 24/7 in the Prime Ministers office. And the same wizards whose greatest political debates over the last century were whether or not wizards should publicly conquer the world for the muggles own good and set themselves up as a permanent nobility so as to stop the muggles from killing themselves or just leave them alone (this would be Grimdelwald vs. Dumbledore) and then whether or not they should just wipe out all the muggles or leave them alone (this would be Voldemort vs. his opposition).

Never, not even once, in all of canon (book or movie) does any wizard show any fear of muggles either as individuals or as a collective whole. The pro muggle side considers them to be essentially handicapped children that should be left alone to amuse themselves while the anti-muggle side considers them a waste of space that they should just wipe out so they can stop with this whole secrecy thing.

 

[Human Primacy]

I don't know of any fanon, I'm not involved in any of that. My experience with HP is that I've seen the movies, and this is what I've observed. Most of what you're saying consists of things very much non-evident from what I've seen. If the nature of the world, as depicted, is inaccurate or even contradictory, that's bad writing, bad filmmaking, or both. That most of the evidence you've supplied amounts to them actually being a race of colossal Mary Sues is not really detracting from that. You've primarily convinced me that Rowling is even more of a hack than I thought.

And you seem to be taking this a little personally, so I'm gonna just let it go.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

I don't know of any fanon, I'm not involved in any of that. My experience with HP is that I've seen the movies, and this is what I've observed. Most of what you're saying consists of things very much non-evident from what I've seen. If the nature of the world, as depicted, is inaccurate or even contradictory, that's bad writing, bad filmmaking, or both. That most of the evidence you've supplied amounts to them actually being a race of colossal Mary Sues is not really detracting from that. You've primarily convinced me that Rowling is even more of a hack than I thought.

And you seem to be taking this a little personally, so I'm gonna just let it go.

The extent to which I am taking this "personally" is mild annoyance at the continuation of the "wizards are stupid" bit of fanon being perpetrated by people who don't actually critically analyze the source material before coming to the conclusion.

And no, JKR was never very good at showing off her own world in any kind of depth. Especially not through an objective viewpoint or through the lens of someone who isn't a child.

The viewpoint character is Harry, and he is almost entirely lacking in any curiosity about the magical world or magic. I mean he spent three weeks in Diagon Alley before third year and yet we (the audience) saw more of it and more of daily wizarding life in the Diagon Alley scenes in first year.

 

[Human Primacy]

It occurs to me that Robert E. Howard did this a couple of times. Solomon Kane and Conan (and all their derivatives) are both physically mundane people who do not suffer a fucking witch to live.

 

[Aaron Fox]

It has been ages since I've read the books but... yeah, muggles in the Harry Potter setting are completely incapable of fighting back if the magicals decide to fight. It goes into the Jackie Chan Adventures of 'Magic can only defeat Magic!' thought process.