Morals must be axiomatic: debate

Doomsought

Well-known member
Morality is not legality because the positive law is created by the state while the natural law was created by God. Positive law also differs from place to place and era to era according to political circumstances while the natural law is based on human nature and will last so long as humans remain human.
The existence of the state and the power behind all of its actions are ultimately the use of force. Though great effort goes into justifying the existence of the state, it is only raw violence and the threat there of that cause it to exist. Therefore any argument that uses law as the basis of morality is, ultimately, and argument under the predisposition that might makes right.
 

The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
The existence of the state and the power behind all of its actions are ultimately the use of force. Though great effort goes into justifying the existence of the state, it is only raw violence and the threat there of that cause it to exist. Therefore any argument that uses law as the basis of morality is, ultimately, and argument under the predisposition that might makes right.
Rather, moral principles ought to be the basis of the state's laws.
 

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
If you think the best basis for "non-axiomatic morality" (whatever that means) is "maximized average happiness", I have to ask this question: how do you define happiness?
"Non-axiomatic" just means there's something measurable the morality is built upon. Religions, at least generally speaking, build on at most axiom-level trust in the words of some prophetic figure, as the divinity itself is immeasurable. With what I'm mentioning, the central tenants are "what allows humans, as a species, to thrive best, while also having as many non-necessary desires met as possible?", something that is an unsolved problem to my own knowledge, and to my knowledge of the general body of scientific knowledge. It is, however, a solvable problem, at least to my knowledge of scientific theory regarding psychology and various forms of biology.

At a certain point, social engineering to bias desires towards constructive behavior becomes a requirement, which is where the data on things like the dissatisfaction with marriage of those who've had a large number of romantic partners alongside the extreme negative effects of single parenthood and abusive households becomes relevant to the nuclear family being our best starting point for such a data-derived morality. Which logically follows historic trends, as the nuclear family is nearly universal among humans, indicating it a behavior to arise very directly from instincts to emerge before and be preserved since the initial expansion of modern humans, or to have reliably emerged separately in almost every environment.

As for defining happiness? There's a lot of life satisfaction metrics and metrics used to construct them, and a sizable amount of data on the relation of these with eachother and various lifestyle factors (single career women are utterly miserable in almost every way, for example), in psychology. Thing is, we haven't pinned down a universal tendency of human preferences, or even just half-decent measures of what a good environment to grow up in is, so it's still firmly in philosophy's park to be the ethics committee. So long as they're not ignoring what data does exist.

Generally, happiness can also be trusted to be self-observed in controlled conditions, and indirect questions can measure at least accepting one's lot in life, if they can't measure outright happiness with social position. Placing societal stability above individual happiness acts as a very direct safety valve on hedonism and social atomization, as desires that lead to societally-destructive behavior patterns can be excluded without violating the moral principals.

One of the oddities is that the ideal state (take care of the Utopia fallacies) is a leadership of no principals, nothing they take for granted as morally "right". The ideal leader of such a system is one who looks at the management of people as an utterly dispassionate breeding project, more or less, in such a fashion as to care only for the metrics of sustainability and population satisfaction.

Which is something that is actually approaching reasonable to automate vital elements of, to allow for AI governance to strip the inherent limits of bias and data intake in humans in high-value positions (keeping humans in a lot of inputs, but the machines handling output details necessary to make the inputs work and have them standing in the way of the major internal affair power structures being abused) to essentially nullify a lot of standard corruption. Lot easier to have checks against corruption in an AI than for humans. Turns it into a technological problem, instead of a societal one, once you resolve the societal problems in the way of implementing the AI properly.

Of course, many utopian systems can be said to solve a social problem to replace it with a technological one, and not a single one in history has achieved such a goal. Except maybe some subsets of capitalism that focused heavily on the "Bread and Circuses" stuff succeeding in turning a lot of scarcity into technical problems instead of social ones, locally, and it's still mostly social problems in the way of solving those issues globally. I don't have any meaningful hope for the successful establishment of an AI bureaucracy to solve corruption. Way too out there for current kinds of technology, way too many things have to go right, way too much along the way able to go spectacularly wrong. Because once established, all biases of the creators are immortalized, as anti-corruption measures require an extremely high quality initial state to make it work as a lot of it comes down to tampering protections.
 

The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
"Non-axiomatic" just means there's something measurable the morality is built upon. Religions, at least generally speaking, build on at most axiom-level trust in the words of some prophetic figure, as the divinity itself is immeasurable. With what I'm mentioning, the central tenants are "what allows humans, as a species, to thrive best, while also having as many non-necessary desires met as possible?", something that is an unsolved problem to my own knowledge, and to my knowledge of the general body of scientific knowledge. It is, however, a solvable problem, at least to my knowledge of scientific theory regarding psychology and various forms of biology.
Again, not sure what you mean by "non-axiomatic." If anything, I could argue your utilitarian moral system is axiomatic by assuming your central tenant.

As for defining happiness? There's a lot of life satisfaction metrics and metrics used to construct them, and a sizable amount of data on the relation of these with eachother and various lifestyle factors (single career women are utterly miserable in almost every way, for example), in psychology. Thing is, we haven't pinned down a universal tendency of human preferences, or even just half-decent measures of what a good environment to grow up in is, so it's still firmly in philosophy's park to be the ethics committee. So long as they're not ignoring what data does exist.
So you don't have a definition for happiness?

Word to the wise: I understand wanting to ramble on about your personal views, and what you do say is quite fascinating to me. But in your eagerness to share your ideas, you didn't answer my question at all.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
@Morphic Tide you argue for a kind of consequentialism, but with a healthy cynic's corrective of assuming you can't really adequately handle second-order consequences and therefore Utopianism is, at least within what is conceivable, bound to fail. I appreciate that. However, I do think if you re-framed your views in terms of society, culture, and nation rather than individuals, it's easier to understand what makes a society, culture and nation healthy at a macro- level. Then one can trust that its traditional mores and values reflect what that society has collectively decided is best for it. I am of course referring to State consequentialism, which I am not unamenable to.
 

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