MGTOW, Minimalism, dating and the Establishment reaction.

[bullethead]

But again, you need to work on yourself and value the things those women value, put yourself in social environments where those sorts of women can be found ie church, in order to be attractive to them in the first place.

So you find women who will be loyal and committed in spite of the "incentives" not to be. They exist. This is a victim mentality, acting like the problem is with the system and everyone else and how that needs to be fixed before you can act properly and honorably.

That's a great thing to say to people who aren't terminally burnt out on society's bullshit, who have the time, energy, and willingness to sort through the contradictory data on what women say they like and what they actually like.

I think it's safe to say that a lot of MGTOW people are burnt out on society's bullshit, and are probably aware that they're little fish in a small pond where there are some big ass fish who're gonna get way more attention.

There's a Captain Picard quote that applies here: "It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose." Problem is, if your experience is nothing but you and/or others you know losing all the time, you have no incentive to engage beyond the minimum. This isn't a game where there's tangible benefits to trying and failing or partial successes. You either win big, or wind up on the sliding scale of getting fucked in some way.

I can't blame anyone who goes "The only way to win is not to play" when failure is potentially life-ruining/soul-crushing. Sometimes, it's better to have nothing than have something precious and important snatched away.

 

[BlackDragon98]

your daily dose of common sense

Common Sense for Men - YouTube

 

[Abhorsen]

I can't blame anyone who goes "The only way to win is not to play" when failure is potentially life-ruining/soul-crushing. Sometimes, it's better to have nothing than have something precious and important snatched away.

Nothing wrong with not playing. I think the issue Stargazer has here is the halfway point: "sure, I'm going to fuck around, but also, spurn commitment."

Personally, I don't have a moral problem with just doing pickup sex if you are clear about your intentions. It's just not for me (did it once, goddamn boring as hell). A FWB at least means you know the person, and the build up of trust allows for good time, but it's honestly still lacking. I'm spending time actually looking for a partner now, and it 100% takes time and effort, both in searching and in improving yourself.

 

[bullethead]

Nothing wrong with not playing. I think the issue Stargazer has here is the halfway point: "sure, I'm going to fuck around, but also, spurn commitment."

Yeah, that's kind of a nihilistic POV, but I think that expecting people to not engage in spite-based behavior is a fool's errand.

it 100% takes time and effort, both in searching and in improving yourself.

If you're making what feels like genuine improvements, good on you!

That said, the cynic in me that's aware of how our society can run with ideas to self-destructive extremes can't help but wonder how much of "self-improvement" nowadays means "conforming to extrovert social expectations." Much like the idea of focusing on maintaining things, there's a lot of value to being at peace with the kind of person you are and not being overly focused on societal perception that's being overlooked.

 

[Abhorsen]

That said, the cynic in me that's aware of how our society can run with ideas to self-destructive extremes can't help but wonder how much of "self-improvement" nowadays means "conforming to extrovert social expectations." Much like the idea of focusing on maintaining things, there's a lot of value to being at peace with the kind of person you are and not being overly focused on societal perception that's being overlooked.

Eh, a good amount of self improvement is bunk, but I could definitely stand to get in shape, for example, especially with remote work meaning I don't walk to work anymore.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

That's a great thing to say to people who aren't terminally burnt out on society's bullshit, who have the time, energy, and willingness to sort through the contradictory data on what women say they like and what they actually like.

I think it's safe to say that a lot of MGTOW people are burnt out on society's bullshit, and are probably aware that they're little fish in a small pond where there are some big ass fish who're gonna get way more attention.

There's a Captain Picard quote that applies here: "It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose." Problem is, if your experience is nothing but you and/or others you know losing all the time, you have no incentive to engage beyond the minimum. This isn't a game where there's tangible benefits to trying and failing or partial successes. You either win big, or wind up on the sliding scale of getting fucked in some way.

I can't blame anyone who goes "The only way to win is not to play" when failure is potentially life-ruining/soul-crushing. Sometimes, it's better to have nothing than have something precious and important snatched away.

I'm not that way toward the opposite sex but I am feeling that way toward living in society as a whole I actually had a breakdown on this site saying as much.

this is a complete 180 from what I used to preach, but the only thing I can recommended to anyone at this point is be as self sustaining as possible do not live beyond means which can't be provided by either your own hands, home business, or a simple laborer job. Do not fall for the pleasures and luxuries of this world and owe it no favors for the world and I'd argue even nature (at least human nature) itself is your enemy and it will try to take everything you have and give as little back as possible in return. The only way to win such a game and be free is to not to play the game at all.

the last couple of months has really hit that home for me.

The only way to make it up the corporate or bureaucratic ladder is to either be born in it, or sell your soul to the devil, if not in literal contract, then in thought or action. Oath breaking, deception, blackmail that's how you make it to the top in this world, and in the end, there will always be someone to take you down.

society DOES always end in failure. the best thing you can do is not rely on it so that when the crap does inevitable hit the fan it doesn't drag you into Hell (metaphorically or literally) with it. How many times do we have to lose before Matthew 10:22 becomes more apparent? There is a reason why Jesus tells us to not have hope in this world and instead look to realms above. There is no "good ending" for the planet earth. Not in the US not in some New Rome not anywhere. There is no hope for the physical world beyond hope that a few will come to Christ and be saved (in the spiritual world).

A lot of people disagree with me but it's one of those things where it's like "How many times do you have to lose before it breaks you" and that maybe the prophets and wise men were onto something when they say let go of your pride and ambition, and dreams, lower your expectations and be content with a servant's life. After all, to quote George Carlin "It's a big club and you ain't in it."

 

[Stargazer]

Nothing wrong with not playing. I think the issue Stargazer has here is the halfway point: "sure, I'm going to fuck around, but also, spurn commitment."

Yes, basically. My first post in the thread here indicated it's fine to choose a life of chaste single-ness. It's men who want to sleep around with women but avoid commitment, and especially those who use the problems they have with society as an excuse to just sleep around and avoid commitment, that are reprehensible.

And a good deal of the problems MGTOWs have with society really do feel like excuses. Such as treating all women like a monolith and pretending that they're all prone to just walk out of any commitment themselves. Does finding a good, loyal woman as a partner take "time, energy, and a willingness to sort through contradictory data"? Sure. Anything worth doing has some difficulty involved. Again, that's no excuse to just go around acting in a reprehensible manner yourself.

That said, the cynic in me that's aware of how our society can run with ideas to self-destructive extremes can't help but wonder how much of "self-improvement" nowadays means "conforming to extrovert social expectations." Much like the idea of focusing on maintaining things, there's a lot of value to being at peace with the kind of person you are and not being overly focused on societal perception that's being overlooked.

The self-improvement I've been advocating isn't about "extrovert social expectations". It's about the kind of woman you want to attract. If you're critical of modern women for their throwaway attitudes towards men, you need to realize there are women who value commitment - but they have certain standards they look for in potential partners. Certain values and priorities they want their men to have. And if you're not willing to adopt those values and priorities, that's on you. You don't have much room to complain about there being no good women when you're not that great of a man yourself.

 

[BlackDragon98]

Basically, it's like fishing except a large portion of the women are either piranhas or some sort of vicious poisonous fish and you have to unhook and toss them back in ASAP.

The rest of them are rare fish that you can put in your aquarium, if you get my meaning.

 

[Arch Dornan]

Yes, basically. My first post in the thread here indicated it's fine to choose a life of chaste single-ness. It's men who want to sleep around with women but avoid commitment, and especially those who use the problems they have with society as an excuse to just sleep around and avoid commitment, that are reprehensible.

There's going to be plenty of that going from general experience reading it up on infidelity rates and the embrace of being cucked.

 

[bullethead]

If you're critical of modern women for their throwaway attitudes towards men, you need to realize there are women who value commitment - but they have certain standards they look for in potential partners. Certain values and priorities they want their men to have. And if you're not willing to adopt those values and priorities, that's on you. You don't have much room to complain about there being no good women when you're not that great of a man yourself.

You know, this whole bit annoyed the shit out of me, and after sleeping on it, I think I know why:
It presupposes that there's actually a time/space opportunity to acquire the information required make such changes.

In a smaller church that might be in a small town, which might be a social center for a decent chunk of the local population, that can come naturally from post-mass social mingling.

The problem is that as the congregation size gets larger (let's say over 200 per mass, to keep things simple), there's less and less actual interaction between people going to mass. So, in order to actually find out what the local church-going ladies think, you have to actually have to have an environment where you can interact with them without coming off like a creep/weirdo. That requires either the congregants organizing such a thing, or the church doing it.

Which just gets us back to the whole problem of not having any spaces for men and women to interact in that aren't school, work, or clubs. (Internet isn't great, for many reasons.)

 

[Abhorsen]

Which just gets us back to the whole problem of not having any spaces for men and women to interact in that aren't school, work, or clubs. (Internet isn't great, for many reasons.)

Honestly, I'd recommend online dating. OK Cupid allows for a lot of question answering from what I've heard, and ability to self segregate away from SJWs is thus really nice. Problem for me is that there's a large overlap between SJWs and other things I want in a partner, even given I'm in Alabama right now.

 

[bullethead]

Problem for me is that there's a large overlap between SJWs and other things I want in a partner, even given I'm in Alabama right now.

Ah, the age old problem of recommendation systems not providing proper exclusion filter support.

 

[Abhorsen]

Ah, the age old problem of recommendation systems not providing proper exclusion filter support.

Yup. OkCupid, from what I've heard (I'm probably going to start using it), is actually pretty good at this. But we will see.

 

[Stargazer]

You know, this whole bit annoyed the shit out of me, and after sleeping on it, I think I know why:
It presupposes that there's actually a time/space opportunity to acquire the information required make such changes.

In a smaller church that might be in a small town, which might be a social center for a decent chunk of the local population, that can come naturally from post-mass social mingling.

The problem is that as the congregation size gets larger (let's say over 200 per mass, to keep things simple), there's less and less actual interaction between people going to mass. So, in order to actually find out what the local church-going ladies think, you have to actually have to have an environment where you can interact with them without coming off like a creep/weirdo. That requires either the congregants organizing such a thing, or the church doing it.

Which just gets us back to the whole problem of not having any spaces for men and women to interact in that aren't school, work, or clubs. (Internet isn't great, for many reasons.)

Hmm. No, I would say it presupposes that "acquiring the information to make such changes" is a worthwhile endeavor in its own right, and worth putting time into.

Also, if you figure out what church or other religious group you want to be a part of and aligns with your values, the point is you're putting yourself in an environment where you already share a common base with the women there. You don't have to put so much effort into "finding out what they think".

And if you're non-religious, I don't have much relationship advice. I would advise changing that, and changing it genuinely, before going to look for a relationship. Otherwise, I don't really think there's much escaping relational nihilism.

 

[Arch Dornan]

If reality loves to shit on you the church goer will also cheat on you. It's that or your children will be groomed by the rainbow perverts to become like Desmond.

 

[Cherico]

If reality loves to shit on you the church goer will also cheat on you. It's that or your children will be groomed by the rainbow perverts to become like Desmond.

The central problem is that we need to get the government out of peoples relationships period.

Get rid of Alimony get rid of child support if you have custody then your fincially responsible for the child in question, do a one time devision of assets after the divorce.

The central problem of society is power with out the responsbility to go with it and responsbility with out the power to deal with said responsibility. Fix that and you fix a whole lot of other issues.

 

[Arch Dornan]

The central problem is that we need to get the government out of peoples relationships period.

Get rid of Alimony get rid of child support if you have custody then your fincially responsible for the child in question, do a one time devision of assets after the divorce.

The central problem of society is power with out the responsbility to go with it and responsbility with out the power to deal with said responsibility. Fix that and you fix a whole lot of other issues.

That is true. If it weren't for those a lot of cheating wouldn't be incentivised but it's just part of it.

 

[Ixian]

Honestly, I'd recommend online dating. OK Cupid allows for a lot of question answering from what I've heard, and ability to self segregate away from SJWs is thus really nice. Problem for me is that there's a large overlap between SJWs and other things I want in a partner, even given I'm in Alabama right now.

Online dating is a trap for men and women, it provides very little if any value to the relationship market.

 

[Abhorsen]

And if you're non-religious, I don't have much relationship advice. I would advise changing that, and changing it genuinely, before going to look for a relationship. Otherwise, I don't really think there's much escaping relational nihilism.

See, the problem with this for many, including me, is that we aren't non religious, but atheists. I see no evidence for God, and the only way I'd become religious would be lying, something I'm not willing to do.

On top of this, there is a deeper, even more fundamental flaw. Believing in a religion to get some advantage/avoid hell isn't a genuine belief, and isn't how one should go about life. One should believe in a religion because they believe in the religion. Or, as in my case, not believe because I don't believe, not to fit in or some such.

 

[Ixian]

So, is this because A. Men are afraid of commitment, or B. Men aren't very interested in job interviews to be lifelong ATM machines to a "modern woman"?

Additionally, how can they claim this was a "safe space" for men... when no men felt "safe" enough to show up?

Woman goes to singles mixer—only women show up, sparking debate

'Somebody literally created a space where men can approach women that want to be approached ... and men saw that as strange.'

www.dailydot.com