Tyr Anazasi
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And here we go again!
Merkels Operation Walküre - Discussion
- Thread starter Tyr Anazasi
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Tyr Anazasi
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Just popping this over to the Alternate History subforum as it seems more at home here
Thank you!
Jaenera Targaryen
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I am here as well. Third time's the charm huh?
Tyr Anazasi
Well-known member
I hope so!
Jaenera Targaryen
Well-known member
Well, we've got MacArthur's appearance, now I'm just looking forward to Patton and Ike. Patton especially, what with his flame and fury at FDR's politicking getting thousands if not more of America's boys getting killed for no good reason.
Yinko
Well-known member
Just started this story for the first time and I ran into something interesting. Perfect actor for Ribbentrop, Giovanni Ribisi.
en.wikipedia.org
My god, I'm seeing double. Dye that man's hair blond and get him a heer uniform, he's going to see the Molotov!
By the way, Chapter 1 part 11 is double posted.
You could also just do ctrl+f and replace the abbreviations on the names and titles that you don't feel like writing out. Abbreviations make it easier to write, but harder to read.
Joachim von Ribbentrop - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
By the way, Chapter 1 part 11 is double posted.
You could also just do ctrl+f and replace the abbreviations on the names and titles that you don't feel like writing out. Abbreviations make it easier to write, but harder to read.
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Tyr Anazasi
Well-known member
Yes, Ribisi could be used as Ribbentrop very well. However, as he isn't involved in this ISOT, he won't be available and thus won't appear in the story.
Chapter 1 Part 11 double post was deleted.
Chapter 1 Part 11 double post was deleted.
Tyr Anazasi
Well-known member
I had posted the vehicle registration plate signs of the German counties east of the Oder-Neiße line. Indeed in OTL such plate systems were made in the early 1950s and indeed used, when the reunifiaction happened. The other plates are not used though for obvious reasons. But sometimes AH isn't so alternative...
Anyway, for the system the German plates have one to three letters for the county or city. So for example B for Berlin, HH for Hamburg (Hansestadt Hamburg) or BÜS (Büsingen am Hochrhein). If you live in a county which has merged with another, you can still apply in some federal states for the old sign. So there are still new PCH plates given out, even if Parchim is now part of the county of Nordwestmecklenburg (NWM).
After these letters one or two other letters follow, then a number with up to 4 digits. So for example B-A 1 is the shortest possibility, NWM-ZZ 9999 the longest. You can choose them as well. So it would be possible to use your initials and your year of birth. In some cases the letters are not allowed due to historic reasons. There is no SS or SA allowed. So as her initials were SS a classmate of mine could never give her car such a plate.
In some cases there are words possible. OD (County of Stormarn)-E 123 or OD-IN 123. Some are cooler: SE (Bad Segeberg)- X 123 or SE-XY 123. There are more possibilities:
Anyway, for the system the German plates have one to three letters for the county or city. So for example B for Berlin, HH for Hamburg (Hansestadt Hamburg) or BÜS (Büsingen am Hochrhein). If you live in a county which has merged with another, you can still apply in some federal states for the old sign. So there are still new PCH plates given out, even if Parchim is now part of the county of Nordwestmecklenburg (NWM).
After these letters one or two other letters follow, then a number with up to 4 digits. So for example B-A 1 is the shortest possibility, NWM-ZZ 9999 the longest. You can choose them as well. So it would be possible to use your initials and your year of birth. In some cases the letters are not allowed due to historic reasons. There is no SS or SA allowed. So as her initials were SS a classmate of mine could never give her car such a plate.
In some cases there are words possible. OD (County of Stormarn)-E 123 or OD-IN 123. Some are cooler: SE (Bad Segeberg)- X 123 or SE-XY 123. There are more possibilities:
Tyr Anazasi
Well-known member
I got over some data, that two former Danish torpedo boats had to be added to the German navy. That has been done.
Jaenera Targaryen
Well-known member
Stalin should really just cut his losses already and negotiate. He's not wrong though, refusing to let the Americans operate out of Soviet soil. Once they arrive, they will never go.
Maybe this time it survive,i hope.
Back to topic - author made old mistakes.
1.making President Trump kind of comical relief.I undarstandt,why germans hate him,he is helping Poland after all,but it made story unproffesional.
2.old germans,new germans,and american germans in one country - now,they must take Ukraine and fields there,or they would die from hunger.But - Stalin proposed that when he was loosing in 1941,so it is possible.
3.Stalin actually asked Britain for 30 dyvisions in 1941 - so i do not undarstandt,why he is refusing now.
4.Jurgen Thorwald in his "Illusion" /book about soviets in Hitler army/ showed,that when soviets thought that germans are going to let them live and gave land to farmers, they welcomed them as liberators.But then Hitler semd SS to show them their place in german Europe,and Germany lost.
Germany really do not need Merkel to win,only Hitler sane enough to wait with genociding soviet till he win.
5.There is still problem with attitude of old Germans - Stauffenberg for example was send 1.9.39 to polish city Wieluń destroyed by Ju 87 which targeted hospital with red cross on roof,and patients trying to run.
His reaction ? war is good,and Poles should be german serfs.
6.Why care about soviet nightfighters and navy ? their nightfighters could not stop Ju52 from dropping supplies to german strongholdst,and soviet navy manage to sink one small german destroyer.
During operation Bagration soviet destroyed army "Center",but also cut off army "North". One german cruiser destroyed soviet forces who was blocking way,and german could reatreat.
7.I read memories of poles send to Kazachstan and other soviet republics.Local ,when they undarstandt that they never go to NKWD,said that they wait for Germans to come and made order.
So,why stop at all? just use Lenin method - gave land to farmers, and freedom to minorities and religions. soviet union would fall in few months.
Back to topic - author made old mistakes.
1.making President Trump kind of comical relief.I undarstandt,why germans hate him,he is helping Poland after all,but it made story unproffesional.
2.old germans,new germans,and american germans in one country - now,they must take Ukraine and fields there,or they would die from hunger.But - Stalin proposed that when he was loosing in 1941,so it is possible.
3.Stalin actually asked Britain for 30 dyvisions in 1941 - so i do not undarstandt,why he is refusing now.
4.Jurgen Thorwald in his "Illusion" /book about soviets in Hitler army/ showed,that when soviets thought that germans are going to let them live and gave land to farmers, they welcomed them as liberators.But then Hitler semd SS to show them their place in german Europe,and Germany lost.
Germany really do not need Merkel to win,only Hitler sane enough to wait with genociding soviet till he win.
5.There is still problem with attitude of old Germans - Stauffenberg for example was send 1.9.39 to polish city Wieluń destroyed by Ju 87 which targeted hospital with red cross on roof,and patients trying to run.
His reaction ? war is good,and Poles should be german serfs.
6.Why care about soviet nightfighters and navy ? their nightfighters could not stop Ju52 from dropping supplies to german strongholdst,and soviet navy manage to sink one small german destroyer.
During operation Bagration soviet destroyed army "Center",but also cut off army "North". One german cruiser destroyed soviet forces who was blocking way,and german could reatreat.
7.I read memories of poles send to Kazachstan and other soviet republics.Local ,when they undarstandt that they never go to NKWD,said that they wait for Germans to come and made order.
So,why stop at all? just use Lenin method - gave land to farmers, and freedom to minorities and religions. soviet union would fall in few months.
Tyr Anazasi
Well-known member
Cutting losses is difficult, even more for a politician. We saw it, how long the US politicians needed to accept Vietnam was lost. The factors were, they had ever said, they were winning and they didn't want to be the first to acknowledge war was lost. The US had never lost a war before (well, the Red-Cloud-War was long forgotten). Thus they were afraid of losing their next elections and to be considered as coward and traitor.
Stalin, who had wanted to take Berlin at all costs, still thinks, he can win. He is gambling, but at the moment he sees to alternative, as he fears to be replaced by someone else. He suspected, if he shows signs of losing power, someone else may use it. Only if he sees, there is no alternative than making peace, which is evident, he will act.
Also for him the situation is another one than 1941, where the Germans were at the very gates of Moscow. Then he had needed the British soldiers. And perhaps if the Germans were again that far he would accept US forces. But he also strongly suspects, the US would want a price, even if his soldiers took Berlin. And he's right. He still thinks, he can get the jackpot for himself. He still thinks, Russia had enough manpower. In OTL the Soviets had bled white. At one veteran meeting a former officer, who had fought at the very front, asked, if there were other comrades, who did so. There were none. The Soviets had lost over 20 million soldiers alone, there were few male survivors being born in 1920 or so. If he recognizes this, he will act. But not before.
Churchill and FDR are other topics for another post. Tomorrow.
Stalin, who had wanted to take Berlin at all costs, still thinks, he can win. He is gambling, but at the moment he sees to alternative, as he fears to be replaced by someone else. He suspected, if he shows signs of losing power, someone else may use it. Only if he sees, there is no alternative than making peace, which is evident, he will act.
Also for him the situation is another one than 1941, where the Germans were at the very gates of Moscow. Then he had needed the British soldiers. And perhaps if the Germans were again that far he would accept US forces. But he also strongly suspects, the US would want a price, even if his soldiers took Berlin. And he's right. He still thinks, he can get the jackpot for himself. He still thinks, Russia had enough manpower. In OTL the Soviets had bled white. At one veteran meeting a former officer, who had fought at the very front, asked, if there were other comrades, who did so. There were none. The Soviets had lost over 20 million soldiers alone, there were few male survivors being born in 1920 or so. If he recognizes this, he will act. But not before.
Churchill and FDR are other topics for another post. Tomorrow.
Tyr Anazasi
Well-known member
For Churchill the situation is very ambivalent. At first, he has doubts, that the war can be won and one could make a deal with Germany. Supporting Germany against Stalin would be even better. However, he will deal not with a 1944 Germany but the Germany of 2014. For him this is too much power for the Germans. Germany will not only be a power, but a super power Britain had nothing to cope with them. And then there are the US loans, which keep Britain alive. He would need new money, if he cut that source of money. In the end Churchill decided to go on with the war.
Churchill, like most British politicians in a leading role, is also a product of the education system with Harrow (where he was), Eton and other premium schools. These schools teach the children not only in sciences, but also to become a certain kind of man. Here people are taught to be a shark in a pond with other sharks. You need alliances, which are broken at the first moment. For the pupils this system becomes a kind of game. And that game they still play, when they are even in a high position. Boris Johnson is just one example for this.
So for Churchill the war is also a kind of game. But in any card game even very good cards can lose, if a certain card is played. If he has not the real timing, he will lose more.
Churchill, like most British politicians in a leading role, is also a product of the education system with Harrow (where he was), Eton and other premium schools. These schools teach the children not only in sciences, but also to become a certain kind of man. Here people are taught to be a shark in a pond with other sharks. You need alliances, which are broken at the first moment. For the pupils this system becomes a kind of game. And that game they still play, when they are even in a high position. Boris Johnson is just one example for this.
So for Churchill the war is also a kind of game. But in any card game even very good cards can lose, if a certain card is played. If he has not the real timing, he will lose more.
Tyr Anazasi
Well-known member
FDR is the third in the row. And perhaps the one I made very stubborn. But so he was. He followed his path. And that path was making America great. And here we have to see on the personality of FDR as well.
Unlike Stalin and his hunger for power and Churchill and his playing of games, FDR had a vision. Don't get me wrong, he had the same hunger for power, but he acted according his own plan to make America great. Therefore all competitors had to be sidelined. That were Britain and Germany. He once said to his son Elliot, that the war wasn't led to liberate Poland, but to become a super power.
He hated Britain and Germany. Britain he could weaken by his loans. He knew, that the days of the Empire were counted. Germany is a much more personal story. Once, as a young man, he had made a trip to Germany with his family (actually there were some). During this trip he was arrested by the German police. It isn't clear why exactly, but likely that was one factor of his Germanophobia (which also his father had). He wanted to destroy Germany once and for all. He supported the Morgenthau plan until he was forced to drop it. Eisenhower said, this plan was as good as 30 divisions for Germany. He demanded the unconditional surrender and refused to talk with the German Widerstand. IMO that did prolong the war.
Anyway, what would have happened, if he had to cope with a Germany of 2014? At first he would be shocked. A Germany as of 2014 would be a super power and a very danger for his plans. That and his Germanophobia would be the main reasons, why he would follow his way to the bitter end. Other factors are, that he can't make a 180° turn without risking his office. And he wants to be re-elected again. He simply can't accept anything else than continuing the war.
However, he health is deteriorating and he has still to win the next election.
Unlike Stalin and his hunger for power and Churchill and his playing of games, FDR had a vision. Don't get me wrong, he had the same hunger for power, but he acted according his own plan to make America great. Therefore all competitors had to be sidelined. That were Britain and Germany. He once said to his son Elliot, that the war wasn't led to liberate Poland, but to become a super power.
He hated Britain and Germany. Britain he could weaken by his loans. He knew, that the days of the Empire were counted. Germany is a much more personal story. Once, as a young man, he had made a trip to Germany with his family (actually there were some). During this trip he was arrested by the German police. It isn't clear why exactly, but likely that was one factor of his Germanophobia (which also his father had). He wanted to destroy Germany once and for all. He supported the Morgenthau plan until he was forced to drop it. Eisenhower said, this plan was as good as 30 divisions for Germany. He demanded the unconditional surrender and refused to talk with the German Widerstand. IMO that did prolong the war.
Anyway, what would have happened, if he had to cope with a Germany of 2014? At first he would be shocked. A Germany as of 2014 would be a super power and a very danger for his plans. That and his Germanophobia would be the main reasons, why he would follow his way to the bitter end. Other factors are, that he can't make a 180° turn without risking his office. And he wants to be re-elected again. He simply can't accept anything else than continuing the war.
However, he health is deteriorating and he has still to win the next election.
i forget about obvious danger.
Germans from 2014 would be loyal to Merkel,but those from 1944 was still loyal to Hitler and belived in Wunderwaffe - after attempted assisination of Hitler Wermacht officer in Berlin need SS escort to save them from angry cyvilians.Goebbels was really good in making german belivers./He was supposed to say,that if Napoleon had good propagandist,french would never knew about Waterloo/
Germans from 2014 USA - they would be american citizen,and at best do not attack other germans.
In other worlds, 60% of german population would be against her.Including 2014 leftist who hate capitalism and love soviets, even more.In those conditions, you need miracle to save Germany from collapsing.
About politicians -
1.Stalin do not wonted Berlin,but entire Europe.His alliance with Hitler was step to bleed both sides and take all.Fortunatelly for us, France saved Europe by quick surrender.
2.Churchill was either agent or stupid - USA would take all of his Empire, when anglophile Hitler would let it be.I do not undarstandt,why he do not sell Poland to Hitler,when he did that later to Stalin.Morally the same, but England would keep colonies.
3.FDR was arleady in bad shape, and stupidly pro-soviet.He told to former ambassador in Moscow,that if he gave Stalin everything,he would behave good.So,in this scenario he would everything what Stalin ask - fight Germany,or made peace.
Germans from 2014 would be loyal to Merkel,but those from 1944 was still loyal to Hitler and belived in Wunderwaffe - after attempted assisination of Hitler Wermacht officer in Berlin need SS escort to save them from angry cyvilians.Goebbels was really good in making german belivers./He was supposed to say,that if Napoleon had good propagandist,french would never knew about Waterloo/
Germans from 2014 USA - they would be american citizen,and at best do not attack other germans.
In other worlds, 60% of german population would be against her.Including 2014 leftist who hate capitalism and love soviets, even more.In those conditions, you need miracle to save Germany from collapsing.
About politicians -
1.Stalin do not wonted Berlin,but entire Europe.His alliance with Hitler was step to bleed both sides and take all.Fortunatelly for us, France saved Europe by quick surrender.
2.Churchill was either agent or stupid - USA would take all of his Empire, when anglophile Hitler would let it be.I do not undarstandt,why he do not sell Poland to Hitler,when he did that later to Stalin.Morally the same, but England would keep colonies.
3.FDR was arleady in bad shape, and stupidly pro-soviet.He told to former ambassador in Moscow,that if he gave Stalin everything,he would behave good.So,in this scenario he would everything what Stalin ask - fight Germany,or made peace.
The Merkel government may very well come to terms with the 1944 generals. In order to avoid a civil war that would result in the destruction of Germany, this must be because the government of 2014 is that it leads the nation, until elections can be held.
Does anyone know if there are enough volunteers from the Baltic countries in the German army for them to build an army out of these soldiers?
Does anyone know if there are enough volunteers from the Baltic countries in the German army for them to build an army out of these soldiers?
SS had 38 dyvisions, 12 germans and 26 made from volunteers.at least 3 of them was from baltic states.More important thing is,that as long as Merkel start winning and promise land for farmers instead of kolchoz, 50% or more soviet prisoners would fight for her.She really do not need peace with Stalin - she could finish him off with soviet volunteers,just like Hitler could in 1941.
Tyr Anazasi
Well-known member
Again, I have to say, that Hitler's (and the NSDAP's) popularity were de facto not existing any more by 1944. Anyway, it's correct, Germany has to make a deal with the Wehrmacht and the DT Widerstand. That isn't too hard, considering how many army officers were indeed against Hitler, but refused to act, partly of cowardice, partly in believing fulfilling an illegal oath, partly as they saw no possibility to remove Hitler. If Hitler was removed, things would get easier very fast.
The Baltic states are being rebuilt in this moment, although there are some difficulties. The volunteers of the Baltic peoples are now still part of the German armed forces, but will be the nucleus of the armed forces of these states. Nevertheless the Baltic states are considered full members of the German alliance. They signed the UN-Charta in Königsberg as well (Chapter 2, Part 11: https://www.the-sietch.com/index.ph...ion-walküre-story-only.2818/page-4#post-79198).
The Baltic states are being rebuilt in this moment, although there are some difficulties. The volunteers of the Baltic peoples are now still part of the German armed forces, but will be the nucleus of the armed forces of these states. Nevertheless the Baltic states are considered full members of the German alliance. They signed the UN-Charta in Königsberg as well (Chapter 2, Part 11: https://www.the-sietch.com/index.ph...ion-walküre-story-only.2818/page-4#post-79198).
If Hitler popularity was not existing,then citizen of Berlin would not waited for miracle in his birtday day in 1945,and german soldiers would mass surrender to Allies in 1944.But - they still fought.
And all german-american from 2014,including President Trump,would be loyal to USA,not Germany.
And all german-american from 2014,including President Trump,would be loyal to USA,not Germany.