Mary "The Rich" of Burgundy SI - who better hubby? Kleve or Julich?

Buba

A total creep
Imagine that you are SI'ed into Mary of Burgundy, the Heiress of the Burgundian inheritance.
Once Daddy Dearest (Charles the Bold) does his "suicide by Swiss infantry" act you grab the reigns of power, do the "heads, spikes, walls" PR thing (or maybe aim for Mary the Impaler moniker?) to impress upon the nobles and top burghers who calls the shots.
You neither wish to marry Maximilian Habsburg nor do you care about the exclave of County of Burgundy (not to be confused with DUCHY of Burgundy) and confusingly known as Franche-Comte. You use the Franche-Comte to pay for Habsburg aid against the French crown. The Habsburgs (like 100% of ruling/noble houses) are greedy for land and the County abuts their holdings in Alsace.
In this POD the hatched part in the south is gone thus making your lands a single lump (well, almost).
You only have the yellow and northern hatched bits (maybe the northern purple part? Or at least Gft. Boulogne. A girl can dream ...).

402px-Karte_Haus_Burgund_5.png




You focus on the Netherlands and wish to expand. Handwaving away any mental issues you might have if male in previous life you need to marry and pop out a few babies.
There are two fine male specimens available, both heirs of neighbouring German principalities. Both roughly your age. One currently married but will be widowed and heirless very soon.
First hawt! hunk:
So, we have Julich-Berg, green on the map, Hzm. Julich and Hzm. Berg, two pieces of land separated by the Bishopric of Cologne. Julich, the western part, is contiguous with your holdings (borders on Limburg and southern Geldern).

Beefcake no.2:
This other candidate is heir to Kleve-Berg (the fromer better known as Cleves to English speakers). Blue on the map - Hzm Kleve and Gft. Mark. Again two pieces of land, with the western part contiguous with your domains (borders on both parts of Geldern).
Bonus - his nickname is "babymaker", earned for siring sixty or so bastards, thus of proven fertility.
Both dark and light yellow lands are yours, no split into United and Spanish Netherlands yet (sorry, could not find better map).

442px-Karte_J%C3%BClich-Kleve-Berg_%281614%E2%80%931672%29.png


You cannot :) wed both, polyandry being frowned upon at that time and place.

Personally I'm undecided, seeing strong pros for either.
Coal deposits - which will become relevant in 400 years time :) - are in both Kleve and Julich. Hence a toss up.
Kleve should be easier to absorb, being culturally mixed and speaking a similar dialect. Eliminates an unseeming wedge splitting Geldern in two.
Nevertheless pretty much the same applies to Julich. Reinforces encirclement of the Bishopric of Liege.
Both come with those pesky beyond-the-Rhine bits.
Thoughts?
 
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Buba

A total creep
To finish with the infodump and map pr0n:
Die_Frankiese_taalgebied.png

As you can see, on the "central German" (Frankish) dialect continuum Kleve and Julich are either inside the "Dutch" zone, or border on it.
Both would be closer to standard Nederlands than the northern part of Netherlands, which speaks a form of Lower Saxon (if not Friesian, a different language altogether).
 

ATP

Well-known member
Could be done.Althought i do not knew,if her state survive when nations become thing.
But,till then,there would be weak France and England with french lands.Which mean,that they never become sea power - becouse they would need strong army.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Imagine that you are SI'ed into Mary of Burgundy, the Heiress of the Burgundian inheritance.
Once Daddy Dearest (Charles the Bold) does his "suicide by Swiss infantry" act you grab the reigns of power, do the "heads, spikes, walls" PR thing (or maybe aim for Mary the Impaler moniker?) to impress upon the nobles and top burghers who calls the shots.
You neither wish to marry Maximilian Habsburg nor do you care about the exclave of County of Burgundy (not to be confused with DUCHY of Burgundy) and confusingly known as Franche-Comte. You use the Franche-Comte to pay for Habsburg aid against the French crown. The Habsburgs (like 100%) or ruling/noble houses are greedy for land and the County abuts their holdings in Alsace.
In this POD the hatched part in the south is gone thus making your lands a single lump (well, almost).
You only have the yellow and northern hatched bits (maybe the northern purple part? Or at least Gft. Boulogne. A girl can dream ...).

402px-Karte_Haus_Burgund_5.png




You focus on the Netherlands and wish to expand. Handwaving away any mental issues you might have if male in previous life you need to marry and pop out a few babies.
There are two fine male specimens available, both heirs of neighbouring German principalities. Both roughly your aghe. One currently married but will be widowed and heirless very soon.
First hawt! hunk:
So, we have Julich-Berg, green on the map, Hzm. Julich and Hzm. Berg, two pieces of land separated by the Bishopric of Cologne. Julich, the western part, is contiguous with your holdings (borders on Limburg and southern Geldern).

Beefcake no.2:
This other candidate is heir to Kleve-Berg (the fromer better known as Cleves to English speakers). Blue on the map - Hzm Kleve and Gft. Mark. Again two pieces of land, with the western part contiguous with your domains (borders on both parts of Geldern).
Bonus - his nickname is "babymaker", earned for siring sixty or so bastards, thus of proven fertility.
Both dark and light yellow lands are yours, no split into United and Spanish Netherlands yet (sorry, could not find better map).

442px-Karte_J%C3%BClich-Kleve-Berg_%281614%E2%80%931672%29.png


You cannot :) wed both, polyandry being frowned upon at that time and place.

Personally I'm undecided, seeing strong pros for either.
Coal deposits - which will become relevant in 400 years time :) - are in both Kleve and Julich. Hence a toss up.
Kleve should be easier to absorb, being culturally mixed and speaking a similar dialect. Eliminates an unseeming wedge splitting Geldern in two.
Nevertheless pretty much the same applies to Julich. Reinforces encirclement of the Bishopric of Liege.
Both come with those pesky beyond-the-Rhine bits.
Thoughts?

A real winning move here would be to marry either one in the first generation and then have one's daughter marry the second one's son in the second generation. That way, you'd get to absorb both of these territories in the long-run. Does that make sense and sound reasonable?
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
Well, historically William IV had only one daughter, so if Mary marries Maximus Naughtious Babymaker and they produce a son, then Julich-Berg can be added in the next generation.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
I reckon both Hapsburgs and Valois would still crave the rich Burgundian lands and would be looking for a way to do a second division of Burgundy, the first one being just an appetiser, so Mary and John would have to do some very skilful politicing and sooner or later would have to win a clash of arms or two, in order to prove that the astounding defeats of her father were but a fluke and Burgundy is not weak. As long as their strength is not vindicated in battle, the neighbours will look at Burgundy the same way I look at a spit roasted pig.
 

Buba

A total creep
I also am leaning towards Naughtious as I have a feeling that he'd be more controlable.
Wilhelm gives off vibes of being a tougher man.
Also, this is the ONE chance to grab Kleve-Mark while there might be an opportunity to marry the Julich-Berg heiress in the future. If she isn't butterflied and replaced by e.g. six boys, that is :)

In OTL France, after annexing Burgundy the Duchy embarked on the Italian Wars, something which kept it and the Habsburgs busy for two generations. This is one of the reasons for which I'd dump Burgundy the County upon Max - eliminating an exclave matters less than putting the Habsburgs on a collision course with France.

I could weaken France by being active in the Mad War (or something like) during the minority of the French King in the 80s (or was it '90s?) and shore up the French magnates. Maybe "steal" the Brettonian heiress? But that'd cause butterflies and maybe lead the French away from embarking on the Italian Wars, which would be bad for ME (as my Big Bad neighbours could gang up on me, instead of killing one another over Naples, Milan, Florence or some other Italian shithole) .

I'm also wary of a factor mentioned in a "how big can Netherlands get?" thread on AH-com, i.e. "how big can Netherlands become yet remain Netherlands, and not transform into another German state?". I've a feeling that J-B would suck me - or descendants - into German affairs more. Especially when with the Reformation the temptation to annex Koeln appears ...
Here I think that Kleve is somehow "safer".

My "ideal" scenario would be picking up Kleve-Mark, Juellich-Berg AND Koeln. And spinning off Berg-Mark to avoid picking up too much "pure German lands. Still risky, both in terms of nation building (too big to be ignored, too embroiled in "continental" i.e. "inland" affairs) and nationality building - i.e. too many Middle Frankish speakers who would not adopt a Nederlander identity.
 
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PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
My guess is there would eventually be Burgundian War(s) that would overlap with Italian Wars, with shifting alliances that are about as straightforward to follow as allegiances of factions during Lebanese Civil War.
In the end I reckon Burgundia would have the core territory with mostly Dutch speakers but also some people speaking languages that were by today absorbed by German and French language. It would also lead to creation of several new buffer zone statelets, conveniently removing most of non-Dutch speakers, while keeping them under a sort of Burgundian sovereignty.
 

Buba

A total creep
with shifting alliances that are about as straightforward to follow as allegiances of factions during Lebanese Civil War.
The "Haha" was the quote above.
I agreement with the rest, even if I'm not sure if there would be buffer states to the west or southwest - France is too aggressive and would end up as direct neighbour.

BTW - I prepare the Scriptures in Pikard and Waloon - and start mass printing in 1520 or so ... alongside the Algemeen Nederlands (based on Brabant dialect, I guess?) version, of course. Not to mention that my Court will be Nederlands and Waloon/Pikard speaking by 1480, with mandatory use of those Gallo-Roman variants and Nederlands in the Courts, in legal documents etc.
Parisian French stays south of the Zoom and Schelde ...

EDIT:
On the other hand, if I propose to Wilhelm then - after he croaks (in 1511) and I terrorise my offspring to agree ("Go Fat Old Bitch of Brabant, whooo!") - I can make Naughtious an Offer He Cannot Refuse - an exchange of Kleve for Berg and Ravensberg. Not accepting my generous offer means war, naturally.
 
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