Movies Marvel Cinematic Universe

[The Whispering Monk]

Except that Steve Rogers is a bully.

He was a bully before he got the serum, if one so weak that no one really cared. And he was a bully after he got the serum.

and you just lost all credibility.

You're going to need to prove that before I even bother addressing the rest.

 

[Husky_Khan]

If you're going to give Cap and Black Widow credit for that, you have to give Tony credit too. He was literally the *first one* to say that they'd have to make the sacrifice because there weren't other options on the table.

He actually just said they'd have to "make a choice." But this is a red herring anyways because your original point was a false premise that Captain America literally said something which he did not. Thus I'm discussing Captain America, not IronMan because you brought up Captain America... not IronMan.

(Remember, with Ultron about to drop the city and *no options*, Captain America literally said they were morally obligated to NOT save the rest of the world if they couldn't save everyone in the city, because "that wasn't good enough".)

IronMan wasn't even mentioned in the post you made.

 

[Husky_Khan]

So... I just watched that relevant bit of Captain America: The Winter Soldier and Captain America says something quite interesting about our brave GSG-9 fellows as they enforce law and order and rightful and dutiful justice.

Captain America: The people who think you did are coming here now. And they're not planning on taking you alive.

Why would Captain America think this?

Because of this revelation from Sharon Carter... whose working with the Task Force, tells Steve Rogers.

Sharon Carter: And you're going to have to hurry. We have orders to shoot on sight.

With that said... what does the "German Special Forces" do as soon as they enter the room? They open fire. Granted one is hit in the face as he repels through a window by Bucky... but the second soldier opens fire on him with an automatic weapon immediately. That's all the German forces ever do, they shoot and shoot and never identify themselves. They even open fire on Black Panther with a machine gun from a helicopter.

Immediately after the initial engagement Captain America says "Buck Stop. Your going to kill someone."

And Bucky Barnes states: "I'm not going to kill anyone."

Then they proceed to absolutely kill no one.

Also relevant quotes:

Black Widow: Task Force will decide who will bring in Barnes.
T'Challa: Don't bother Ms. Romanoff. I'll kill him myself.

Also relevant quote:

Captain America: If he's this far gone I should be the one who brings him in.
Black Widow: Why?
Captain America: Because I'm the one least likely to die trying.

But your right, if it was anyone else, Captain America would've turned them over to be executed by law enforcement.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Given how dangerous the Winter Soldier is known to be, "shoot on sight" is absolutely legitimate use of force. He's literally had years to turn himself in peacefully if he had any desire to do so.

Honestly, the correct solution to this situation would have been a Reaper drone leveling the block.

 

[Skallagrim]

It's funny how both people arguing against Cap just totally lose all credibility with false claims and outlandish statements.


"Cap is a bully!" (No proof given, and also - it should be noted - no further comment on how previous false claims about Avengers were disproven. Just total silence on that, and moving right on to new false claims...)

"The correct solution would have been a Reaper drone leveling the block!" (This from the inane troll that just previously argued that Cap supposedly doesn't prioritise saving the most people... but leveling a city block -- and killing everyone there -- to kill one guy is just fine?)


Get real, guys.

 

[Husky_Khan]

A Reaper Drone would've been a terrible solution since it would've covered up the actual responsible party for the bombing in Vienna and the death of King T'chaka.

Plus you'd of killed like more people in the Romanian apartment complex then were probably killed in the Vienna Bombing anyways. Also a bombing is like the worst way to kill a Superhero in the MCU. I can think of numerous instances of buildings exploding and somehow the heroes survive. (Endgame when the Avengers base is obliterated by surprise orbital bombardment, the Gunship Attack on the Stark Residence in IronMan 3, the Vienna Bombing itself in Civil War etc). This along with the fact that Bucky Barnes knew he was being followed and was literally a leap through the window away onto an adjacent rooftop from escaping a building leveling blast. You'd have a high chance of failing to kill him but successfully blowing up a Bucharest Apartment Complex.

Also keep in mind that when Captain America meets Bucky for the first time (right before the German Special Forces raid) Bucky immediately states he was never in Vienna and doesn't do that anymore. Granted, its a face value thing but later on Sharon Carter and Steve Rogers point out that this looks like a setup.

Steve Rogers: Why would the Task Force release this photo to begin with?
Sharon Carter: Get the word out, involve as many eyes as we can?
Steve Rogers: Right. It's a good way to flush a guy out of hiding. Set off a bomb, get your picture taken. Get seven billion people looking for the Winter Soldier.
Sharon Carter: You're saying someone framed him to find him?
Sam Wilson: Steve, we looked for the guy for two years and found nothing.
Steve Rogers: We didn't bomb the UN. That turns a lot of heads.
Sharon Carter: Yeah, but that doesn't guarantee that whoever framed him would get him. It guarantees that we would.
Steve Rogers: Yeah...

Yes... Why Would the infamous Winter Soldier, whose literally known for being the greatest assassin in the past fifty years be so foolish as to get his actual face pictured at the sight of the Vienna Bombing?

As they said in The Bourne Supremacy about super badass spy/assassins.

CIA Agent: He just made his first mistake!
Genre Savvy CIA Agent: It's not a mistake. They don't make mistakes. They don't do random.

Apparent setup with Bucky Barnes as the patsy is apparent.

Also... going through the movie... great movie btw to rewatch. Another reminder they were a kill team in case there was any doubt.

Black Widow: What happens when the shooting starts? What, do you kill Steve Rogers?
General Ross: If we're provoked. Barnes would've been eliminated in Romania if it wasn't for Rogers. There are dead people who would be alive now. Feel free to check my math.
Tony Stark: All due respect, you're not gonna solve this with boys and bullets, Ross. You gotta let us bring them in.

Still.. it would've been funny to see mere mortal Special Forces attempt to capture Captain America, Winter Soldier, AntMan, Falcon, Hawkeye and the Scarlet Witch instead of the heroes without leveling the entire airport (and probably still failing to kill them).

 

[ShadowArxxy]

The Accords may well have been filled with all manner of objectionable content and a horrid idea as constituted but CAP NEVER READ THEM before making his claim so any theoretical objectionable content has zero bearing on his decision making process.

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make, yes.

It literally does not matter in the slightest how objectionable the terms of the Accords may be. Sovereign nations are sovereign nations and have absolute authority to both individually and collectively tell the Avengers to fuck off.

"The correct solution would have been a Reaper drone leveling the block!" (This from the inane troll that just previously argued that Cap supposedly doesn't prioritise saving the most people... but leveling a city block -- and killing everyone there -- to kill one guy is just fine?)

It's not *ideal* but it is a completely acceptable level of collateral damage under real-life ROE for taking out ultra-dangerous terrorists.

 

[Skallagrim]

1. Long post explaining why it's a terrible idea.

2. Dumb post that just doggedly insists it's "acceptable", instead of, you know... psychopathically murderous for no good reason.


The discrepancy in intelligence and basic honesty between the sides in this debate (if it even is that) is so jarring that it's almost comical all by itself. Seriously, I refuse to believe that ShadowArxxy is anything other than a deliberate troll who just posts the most retarded thing he can imagine to get a rise out of people. It would be genuinely funny, but it's too depressing for that.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Actually Captain America was reading the Accords. During one of his meetings with Tony Stark and the others he was sitting in a chair, with a big white book or whatever in his hand... which I assume was the very Accords they were talking about. It was in the same scene where they were discussing the Sokovia Accords. In fact he was the only one in the room who was apparently reading a copy... though I'm assuming they all had a chance to at least browse it.

 

[Sailor.X]

IMO, the big problem with the whole Winter Soldier and Civil War plotline is that it directly showed Steve placing his friendship with Bucky above all other loyalties while *not* allowing anyone else to call him on it outside of the Steve/Tony conflict. Like, even before the Accords are on the table, where are the consequences for Steve literally helping Bucky cripple and maim dozens of GSG-9 police officers who were *absolutely in the right* to be using lethal force *regardless* of any mind control?

Overall, I don't care how bad the terms of the Accords are, sovereign nations *absolutely* have the authority to tell the Avengers to fuck off, especially with the Avengers showing a history of trampling international borders in a way that makes Team America World Police look responsible. Steve argues that the Avengers "need" extraterritorial authority to respond to time sensitive planet killing tier threats, but that's not a very credible argument when the vast majority of Avengers operations we've seen on screen have actually had nothing to do with such threats.

Tony Stark was right and he did nothing wrong. Wandavision and Dr Strange Multiverse of Madness prove Tony was right and Steve was wrong. Wanda was always and I mean always a villain. Most people just failed to pay attention to that fact.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Tony Stark was right and he did nothing wrong. Wandavision and Dr Strange Multiverse of Madness prove Tony was right and Steve was wrong. Wanda was always and I mean always a villain. Most people just failed to pay attention to that fact.

Nah. Wanda was a person who broke. That made her tragic and fallen. It was her choices AFTER the Vision died that were evil.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Well, if nothing else -- if being mind-whammied by HYDRA means Bucky isn't responsible for his own direct actions, doesn't being mind-whammied by Wanda *with the specific, malicious intent of making him overreact* similarly mean Tony isn't responsible for the Ultron incident, especially since he was *at no point* directly controlling Ultron in the first place?

Actually Captain America was reading the Accords. During one of his meetings with Tony Stark and the others he was sitting in a chair, with a big white book or whatever in his hand... which I assume was the very Accords they were talking about. It was in the same scene where they were discussing the Sokovia Accords. In fact he was the only one in the room who was apparently reading a copy... though I'm assuming they all had a chance to at least browse it.

I agree that it's reasonable to assume everyone had a chance to at least browse it offscreen, but I don't think any of them necessarily had a chance to read it *in full* and parse the dense legalese. It's also reasonable, I think, to assume Tony sicced his legal staff on it ASAP.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Except where he has sufficient evidence to believe that the system has been perverted to render an innocent man guilty.

And my argument is that no, he *doesn't* have sufficient evidence. He *wants* to believe that the HYDRA mind control is a "curable" issue and that the innocent Bucky inside the Winter Soldier can be rescued, but that was what he *wanted* to believe based on Bucky hesitating to finish him off at the very end of Winter Soldier, but that was only a *momentary hesitation* before the helicarrier exploded, and keep in mind that while the *audience* saw Bucky pull Steve out of the river after that, *literally no one witnessed that*.

Given the facts *known* to decision makers, and even the facts *known* to Steve, his belief is clearly motivated by personal bias and *not* any basis of fact. That uncertainty was already enough that the authorities did not lay on a massive global manhunt for the escaped Winter Soldier after the events of the movie; they didn't start hunting him again until after the UN bombing, which they deemed sufficient evidence that Steve was wrong about the WS *at least* being dormant.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Well, if nothing else -- if being mind-whammied by HYDRA means Bucky isn't responsible for his own direct actions, doesn't being mind-whammied by Wanda *with the specific, malicious intent of making him overreact* similarly mean Tony isn't responsible for the Ultron incident, especially since he was *at no point* directly controlling Ultron in the first place?

The situations regarding Tony Stark in Age of Ultron and the Winter Soldier in Civil War are dramatically different in terms of actual control and manipulation. In that in the latter case, there was actual direct control of the Winter Soldier by HYDRA.

There was literally no control of Tony Stark by Wanda, only that manipulation of his feelings. It's obviously apparent that Wanda had no inkling or iota of an idea that Tony Stark would contemplate anything like the Ultron Project and while Wanda's manipulations upon Tony's fears might've initialized it, Tony Stark literally ran with the idea for the rest of the way.

With that said, the responsibility isn't fully Tony Starks (and Bruce Banners) and it can be partially attributed to Wanda as well.

While I'm not sure how much responsibility Bucky Barnes has, considering the extent of the mind control HYDRA had over him, it seems self evident that it's dramatically different situations to the point it's really a stretch.

And my argument is that no, he *doesn't* have sufficient evidence. He *wants* to believe that the HYDRA mind control is a "curable" issue and that the innocent Bucky inside the Winter Soldier can be rescued, but that was what he *wanted* to believe based on Bucky hesitating to finish him off at the very end of Winter Soldier, but that was only a *momentary hesitation* before the helicarrier exploded, and keep in mind that while the *audience* saw Bucky pull Steve out of the river after that, *literally no one witnessed that*.

Given the facts *known* to decision makers, and even the facts *known* to Steve, his belief is clearly motivated by personal bias and *not* any basis of fact.

Two years passed between Winter Soldier and Civil War with no more incidents surfacing regarding said Winter Soldier. Also keep in mind in Civil War, Captain America went to grab the Winter Soldier for two reasons:

The FIRST reason he stated was because he felt he was the one that could bring him in without anyone getting killed. He was further motivated later when Sharon Carter flat out stated they were going to shoot him on site based on extremely nebulous evidence.

When the two super soldiers had their encounter in Bucharest, Bucky did absolutely nothing to make Steve Rogers regret the decision and within minutes of meeting Steve Rogers he firmly iterated that he wasn't going to kill anyone, wasn't planning on killing anyone and no longer engaged in that lifestyle, thus confirming ALL of Steve Rogers "personal bias" on him as being correct. He also surrendered to the Bucharest Police because unlike the noble and brave German Special Forces, they weren't ordered to 'shoot on sight.'

Nah. Wanda was a person who broke. That made her tragic and fallen. It was her choices AFTER the Vision died that were evil.

The argument might hold water 'in-universe.'

But this originated as a discussion of the films overall quality. Holding a films quality hostage to retroactive continuity based on television and movies that come out years later is just unfair in most respects. There's no way to predict such a thing occurring. No one involved in making the Captain America sequels was thinking "Oh I can't wait for Steve Rogers to be proven wrong and all of these movie themes crapped on when Multiverse of Madness comes out!"

 

[Husky_Khan]

She-Hulk as a television show is impressive in how overwhelmingly average it is. I guess it's like average sitcom/legal comedy level quality with some MCU superheroics kind of splashed over it to make it more unique or whatever. The problem isn't the 'wokness' though there is a strong feminist theme to it all. The girl playing Jennifer Walters is fun and likable but she's playing a character who is meant to be extremely sympathetic in a comedy series. I'm not knocking her, but it'd be harder to dislike a person in such a situation generally speaking.

But overall the show just feels extremely episodic and kinda... pointless. And the length of each episode being like twenty or thirty minutes kind of surprises me everytime I see the credits start to roll and I'm just like... "Oh is that it?" It's like the show is just throwing short stories at me that get wrapped up super quick. It's fun to watch. There's funny. There's cameos. The main character is likable. But it's all just pretty subpar overall. If there's an overall story beyond Young Single Female Lawyer (with superpowers) it's pretty blah.

Oh and Titania is cringe af. Episode 5 in particular I think was the worst episode yet. When I learned this series was going to be nine episodes instead of six and focus more on Titania I was kinda bummed.

Titania isn't as lame as the shows interpretation of The Wrecking Crew though, that was even worse.

 

[Zachowon]

She-Hulk as a television show is impressive in how overwhelmingly average it is. I guess it's like average sitcom/legal comedy level quality with some MCU superheroics kind of splashed over it to make it more unique or whatever. The problem isn't the 'wokness' though there is a strong feminist theme to it all. The girl playing Jennifer Walters is fun and likable but she's playing a character who is meant to be extremely sympathetic in a comedy series. I'm not knocking her, but it'd be harder to dislike a person in such a situation generally speaking.

But overall the show just feels extremely episodic and kinda... pointless. And the length of each episode being like twenty or thirty minutes kind of surprises me everytime I see the credits start to roll and I'm just like... "Oh is that it?" It's like the show is just throwing short stories at me that get wrapped up super quick. It's fun to watch. There's funny. There's cameos. The main character is likable. But it's all just pretty subpar overall. If there's an overall story beyond Young Single Female Lawyer (with superpowers) it's pretty blah.

Oh and Titania is cringe af. Episode 5 in particular I think was the worst episode yet. When I learned this series was going to be nine episodes instead of six and focus more on Titania I was kinda bummed.

Titania isn't as lame as the shows interpretation of The Wrecking Crew though, that was even worse.

How bad is the wrecking crew?

 

[Robovski]

How bad is the wrecking crew?

Pretty bad.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

and you just lost all credibility.

You're going to need to prove that before I even bother addressing the rest.

Bully is not quite the right word, but Steve Rogers does have an enormous character flaw that is magnified as Captain America. He cares about doing what he thinks is right, to the point where he believes that absolutely anything he does in the pursuit of that is justified.

Consider what pre-serum Steve Rogers was doing: trying to join the Army as an infantryman despite being comically unfit to do so. He didn't care that he was committing fraud. He didn't care that he could contribute vastly more to the war effort by other means. He didn't even care that if he had succeeded, all he would have accomplished would have been to endanger the lives of his own squad and everyone around them.

Steve Rogers wanted to be a soldier, and he believed that everything he did to try to get what he wanted was justified and virtuous because he just wanted to serve his country and how dare anyone tell him no? And that's the exact same mindset he has as Captain America -- he believes he is entitled to do as he sees fit, because he's always doing the right thing. Therefore anyone who disagrees with him is wrong and should be . . . gently but firmly pushed aside and ignored.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Bully is not quite the right word, but Steve Rogers does have an enormous character flaw that is magnified as Captain America. He cares about doing what he thinks is right, to the point where he believes that absolutely anything he does in the pursuit of that is justified.

Consider what pre-serum Steve Rogers was doing: trying to join the Army as an infantryman despite being comically unfit to do so. He didn't care that he was committing fraud. He didn't care that he could contribute vastly more to the war effort by other means. He didn't even care that if he had succeeded, all he would have accomplished would have been to endanger the lives of his own squad and everyone around them. Steve Rogers wanted to be a soldier, and he believed that everything he did to try to get what he wanted was justified and virtuous because he just wanted to serve his country and how dare anyone tell him no?

Don't forget when he challenged that guy in the Back Alley during that movie. He could've been maimed... or the guy could've been charged with a felony for beating on him because Steve needlessly escalated the situation. Or Bucky could've been charged with a felony. Or he could've KILLED the man. That would've been on Steve.

All he did prior to the Super Soldier Serum was commit fraud and other criminal acts that would've resulted in the deaths of everyone he cared about. 😭

Keep in mind... Steve Rogers being a terribly flawed person is all based on him repeatedly wanting to enlist in the army. Is it portrayed in the film as silly and idealistic and naive?

Yes.

BUT THAT ISN'T ENOUGH.

Captain America: The First Avenger Dialogue:

Abraham Erskine: The serum amplifies everything that is inside, so good becomes great; bad becomes worse. This is why you were chosen. Because the strong man who has known power all his life, may lose respect for that power, but a weak man knows the value of strength, and knows... compassion.
Steve Rogers: Thanks. I think.
Abraham Erskine: Get it, get it. Whatever happens tomorrow, you must promise me one thing. That you will stay who you are, not a perfect soldier, but a good man.
Shadowarrxy Outta Nowhere: He has an enormous character flaw that will be MAGNIFIED as Captain America. He's committing fraud?! He's potentially Killing all of his friends?!??! Therefore anyone who disagrees with him is wrong and will be firmly ignored! (I would say worse but a month ago I had this discussion before and need to moderate my language)

Therefore anyone who disagrees with him is wrong and should be . . . gently but firmly pushed aside and ignored.

For example..?

 

[Husky_Khan]

Marvels Secret Invasion trailer was released two weeks ago.