Religion Let's argue about religion

[Terthna]

The moment we do.....none of that will truly be divine anymore

True; all of that would be gone. But imagine what we would gain in exchange.

As for me, I'd like to believe that God is not a spoiled child playing with toys that throws a tantrum and kicks everything down when the toys don't move the way He wants to.

Yeah, that would be kinda awesome. Maybe he's a frustrated parent, who really wishes we'd get our lives together, but also knows that if he did if for us, we'd never grow up to be adults in our own right. Or perhaps he's a tinkerer; and we were just one of his creations, until one day we become something more.

I prefer an Eldritch Abomination with a thought process so complex and ability to warp reality such that 2+2=5 actually occurs would explain how it’s morally right all the time

Or that. Honestly, it would be cool if we figured out how to communicate with such a being, in a way they can understand.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Or that. Honestly, it would be cool if we figured out how to communicate with such a being, in a way they can understand.

The Dreamer Awakes

 

[Terthna]

The Dreamer Awakes

More like the dream itself awakes, if that makes any sense.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

More like the dream itself awakes, if that makes any sense.

Just so you know I’m sorta saying that by actively communicating with it, the dreamer wakes up, ending the dream or reality itself before going back to doing something else

Azathoth needs to be kept asleep

 

[Nitramy]

I am pretty sure that this is very unfair towards Christianity, but I can see where they are going. And thew 6k years thing is only some parts of the religion, the other ones are going to believe what science tells them about the universe. Especially Catholicism.

Well, out of all the Abrahamic religions that are trying to make the move from religion to philosophy, I'm making an educated guess that Christianity is making the most progress in that regard.

Judaism and Islam are too concerned about temporal matters to focus on that.

Also, it's hard to be a Catholic nowadays when the House of God is closer to the House of Marx thanks to that bleeding-heart commie pope we have right now.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Also, it's hard to be a Catholic nowadays when the House of God is closer to the House of Marx thanks to that bleeding-heart commie pope we have right now.

I expect for if he lives a few more decades, he’ll regret when Catholics become a persecuted minority in Europe like in Saudi Arabia

 

[Terthna]

Just so you know I’m sorta saying that by actively communicating with it, the dreamer wakes up, ending the dream or reality itself before going back to doing something else

Azathoth needs to be kept asleep

Yeah I know; I just think it would be cooler if the dreamer woke up, and the dream came with him. Kinda like this:


I mean we are talking about an eldritch being beyond our comprehension here; maybe we'll become friends, and it'll work out that way, if they want it to.

 

[Urabrask Revealed]

I expect for if he lives a few more decades, he’ll regret when Catholics become a persecuted minority in Europe like in Saudi Arabia

People like him don't feel regret for such things, they will delude themselves into believing they did the right thing instead.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

People like him don't feel regret for such things, they will delude themselves into believing they did the right thing instead.

They will also deny that anything bad is happening or has to do with their previous decisions and will come up with solutions that don’t solve anything.....well I think at the very least he doesn’t look to have the same sort of horrible repressed urges as the others

Hopefully they convert en masse after finding these priests to be nicer in comparison to theirs

 

[Terthna]

People like him don't feel regret for such things, they will delude themselves into believing they did the right thing instead.

Which is really sad, because I kinda liked him in the beginning. He just seemed more personable, and compassionate, compared to the pope before him. Then he started talking smack about agnostics, and that impression went out the window fast.

 

[Scottty]

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No, when people talk about what "god commands" it is, in my opinion, nothing more than putting words in his mouth; using him as a shield for what they themselves believe. Everyone has this idea about what god wants from them, what he wants from all of us; but the truth is? Nobody actually knows anything about god; they just want to convince themselves otherwise, because the truth is that terrifying to them. That none of us have as sure a footing on how things are as we think we do. Or at least, that's what I, as an agnostic theist, believe.

I don't know where you got the idea of shaving one's beard being against OT law, let alone crop rotation.
But your point is that you don't believe that Leviticus was really dictated by God.
Well, that's tangential to the debate about free will.

As for how I interpret "not allowed", as determined by god; it's different from what's wrong. Moving faster than the speed of light, using our current understanding of science, is "not allowed"; hitting your friend with a brick is wrong.

Okay, so "not allowed" means "not possible". Now how does being unable to go FTL deny you free-will?

 

[Terthna]

I don't know where you got the idea of shaving one's beard being against OT law, let alone crop rotation.
But your point is that you don't believe that Leviticus was really dictated by God.
Well, that's tangential to the debate about free will.

I tend to go on tangents, and this is supposed to be a thread for arguing about religion in general, not just about free will. I guess I took the opportunity to get something unrelated off my chest; sorry about that.

Okay, so "not allowed" means "not possible". Now how does being unable to go FTL deny you free-will?

This is what I was responding to, when I said it meant there was no free will;

You are not allowed to do anything in order to avert death. If you were to violate your body, God's temple, to stay alive, that would be immoral.

Now clearly, we are capable of averting death; that's what the entire field of medicine does. Therefore, we are allowed to make that choice; but then that jerk comes along, presuming to speak for god, and says "no, you're not allowed to do that". Oh yeah; well who's going to stop me! Not god, and certainly not that fanatical loon! I reject that notion every time I hand someone a Band-Aid and Neosporin at the church, or help my dad with his glaucoma eye drop medication; and I do so gladly!

If god says we are free to choose, makes a choice available to us, but then tells us we are "not allowed" to choose it; how is that anything other than denying us our free will? In then end though, I know it's not god saying that; god never says anything. It's always other people, who want to impose their views on what is right and what is wrong on others, that use his name to try and force you to give up your free will. Well screw them; I know what's right, and letting people die because it's "natural" isn't.

 

[Scottty]

I tend to go on tangents, and this is supposed to be a thread for arguing about religion in general, not just about free will. I guess I took the opportunity to get something unrelated off my chest; sorry about that.

Just remember here that if you want to learn anything, you need to stay on topic a bit, and not jump into something else whenever anyone starts to reply to you.

This is what I was responding to, when I said it meant there was no free will;

Now clearly, we are capable of averting death; that's what the entire field of medicine does. Therefore, we are allowed to make that choice; but then that jerk comes along, presuming to speak for god, and says "no, you're not allowed to do that". Oh yeah; well who's going to stop me! Not god, and certainly not that fanatical loon! I reject that notion every time I hand someone a Band-Aid and Neosporin at the church, or help my dad with his glaucoma eye drop medication; and I do so gladly!

If god says we are free to choose, makes a choice available to us, but then tells us we are "not allowed" to choose it; how is that anything other than denying us our free will? In then end though, I know it's not god saying that; god never says anything. It's always other people, who want to impose their views on what is right and what is wrong on others, that use his name to try and force you to give up your free will. Well screw them; I know what's right, and letting people die because it's "natural" isn't.

Okay, I think that you and he have miscommunicated there. Obviously he does not mean that human beings are incapable of taking any actions that avert death. That's an absurd reading. We avoid dying from lack of Oxygen every time we take another breath.
What he probably meant is that for the cause of prolonging life, not every possible action is morally permissible. There are things one could do in order to postpone death, that would be wrong to do.
For example: behaving like that alien species in Star Trek Voyager who go around killing other people and harvesting their organs in order to replace their own. Nope.

 

[Terthna]

Just remember here that if you want to learn anything, you need to stay on topic a bit, and not jump into something else whenever anyone starts to reply to you.



Okay, I think that you and he have miscommunicated there. Obviously he does not mean that human beings are incapable of taking any actions that avert death. That's an absurd reading. We avoid dying from lack of Oxygen every time we take another breath.
What he probably meant is that for the cause of prolonging life, not every possible action is morally permissible. There are things one could do in order to postpone death, that would be wrong to do.
For example: behaving like that alien species in Star Trek Voyager who go around killing other people and harvesting their organs in order to replace their own. Nope.

But he didn't clarify his position in that way; he said "You are not allowed to do anything in order to avert death." That a pretty clear blanket statement. According to him, I'm not even allowed to put a Band-Aid on an open wound.

 

[Lanmandragon]

I don't know where you got the idea of shaving one's beard being against OT law, let alone crop rotation.
But your point is that you don't believe that Leviticus was really dictated by God.
Well, that's tangential to the debate about free will.



Okay, so "not allowed" means "not possible". Now how does being unable to go FTL deny you free-will?

Doesnt tge old testament literally lay out tye concept of letting fields lie fallow to recharge them? Assuming that's true then why in the world would crop rotation be bad? Considering both things are agricultural science to increase yeilds

 

[Terthna]

Doesnt tge old testament literally lay out tye concept of letting fields lie fallow to recharge them? Assuming that's true then why in the world would crop rotation be bad? Considering both things are agricultural science to increase yeilds

It has been many years since I last read the bible; maybe I'm misremembering. But I was sure there was something about how you're forbidden from using the same land to plant different crops; it was one of my go-tos for examples of crazy stuff in the bible.

 

[Lanmandragon]

It has been many years since I last read the bible; maybe I'm misremembering. But I was sure there was something about how you're forbidden from using the same land to plant different crops.

I don't think that's accurate. What you may be thinking of is not mixing different fabrics. Like linnen and wool.

 

[Scottty]

But he didn't clarify his position in that way; he said "You are not allowed to do anything in order to avert death." That a pretty clear blanket statement. According to him, I'm not even allowed to put a Band-Aid on an open wound.

Well, my sanity-filter parses that sentence as a negative of "you are allowed to do anything - anything whatsoever - in order to avert death".
Suppose you wanted to play the bagpipes on the street at night when people are trying to sleep. And we told you "no, you can't do that anytime of day or night!" - would we be forbidding you from playing the bagpipes at all?

To state that something is not infinite is not the same as limiting it to zero.

Doesnt tge old testament literally lay out tye concept of letting fields lie fallow to recharge them? Assuming that's true then why in the world would crop rotation be bad? Considering both things are agricultural science to increase yeilds

It does.
Exodus chapter 23 verses 10 to 11:
For six years you are to sow your fields and harvest the crops, but during the seventh year let the land lie unplowed and unused. Then the poor among your people may get food from it, and the wild animals may eat what is left. Do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove.

 

[Terthna]

I don't think that's accurate. What you may be thinking of is not mixing different fabrics. Like linnen and wool.

Maybe; I'd have to check, and I'm not sure I want to dig through that thing again. At least, not just so I can prove that I was right about something so minor.

Well, my sanity-filter parses that sentence as a negative of "you are allowed to do anything - anything whatsoever - in order to avert death".
Suppose you wanted to play the bagpipes on the street at night when people are trying to sleep. And we told you "no, you can't do that anytime of day or night!" - would we be forbidding you from playing the bagpipes at all?

To state that something is not infinite is not the same as limiting it to zero.

Perhaps; but that's not the impression I got. Besides, even if that's the case; he and I clearly have different ideas on where that limit should be, and I don't think this difference can be reconciled.

 

[Scottty]

It has been many years since I last read the bible; maybe I'm misremembering. But I was sure there was something about how you're forbidden from using the same land to plant different crops; it was one of my go-tos for examples of crazy stuff in the bible.

There were commands against mixing together things that are supposed to be apart. Many scholars believe the underlying point was spiritual - it was about purity and holiness, and not mixing the clean and unclean.

What was the significance of the commands against mixing different things in Deuteronomy 22:9–11? | GotQuestions.org

What was the significance of the commands against mixing different things in Deuteronomy 22:9–11? Do any of the laws regarding mixing given in Deuteronomy 22 apply today?

www.gotquestions.org

Atheists who keep a collection of "oh but what about" verses from the depths of the Old Testament tend, in my experience, to not really be interested in learning the answers.