CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
How would history go with him in charge instead of Stalin?
Lenin instead of Stalin as the Soviet Union’s leadership
- Thread starter CarlManvers2019
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Aaron Fox
Well-known member
Not much, the reason that Stalin pushed collectivization as hard as he did was that Lenin's program failed miserably. Not only that but Lenin was in poor health at the time and the only other person with enough clout to take over without Stalin in the picture would be Leon Trotsky aka the Jewish Red Butcher.
It would be problematic to say the least.
It would be problematic to say the least.
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
The thing is Lenin was just pragmatic enough to try to get Russia in its feet using small scale capitalism, that failed miserably. Then again, Russia has this tendency to require it to go into modernity (of the time period) one way and only one way: kicking and screaming.
I thought that the NEP was a success story? It was War Communism that was a huge failure, to my knowledge.
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
From my readings... absolutely not, even when filtering for propaganda. Why do you think Stalin was able to implement the 5-year plans? Because the NEP just ended up not working.
As I said, Russia has this tendency to only become 'modern' one way and one way only: kicking and screaming.
I thought that the 5 Year Plans were implemented because Stalin wanted them to be implemented, not necessarily because the NEP was not working? Though I suppose that if one wanted a quick industrialization and didn't care at all about extremely massive losses of life, well, ...
Lenin never planned NEP as something permanent - used it,becouse he feared that people would topple them.
But,he always planned to made kolchoz after genociding farmers,and go to war and take Europe after that.
So,nothing would change - unless he manage backstab Hitler before he backstabbed him.Then,we would have red Europe.
It worked much better tyhen communism which Sralin introduced.
And Stołypin reforms worked,and started turning Russia into first world economy.
Why do you think Wall Street paid Trocky&thugs to go to Petersburg and kill Russia? becouse tsar killed jews? tsar was arleady defeated,and jews from Wall Street do not cared about poor jews from Europe getting killed.
sillygoose
Well-known member
Ideology and brutality. Millions died for something that wasn't really working as well as advertised. The NEP wasn't followed because ideologically it wasn't supposed to work, so couldn't be allowed to continue working.
Stalin thought that small producers couldn't create the necessary amounts of grain needed to raise money via exports to institute the 5 year plan and insisted on collectivization to boost output, completely ignoring that output was higher under the NEP than even in 1914. Instead production collapsed with the end of the NEP and institution of collectivization. So the NEP was working very well, but Stalin turned it into a disaster by replacing it.
This.Soviet system worked only if you purged people regullary,including your army and secret police.Without that,it must fall,like in OTL.
There is soviet joke about that:
Sralin,and Breżniew ride train,but it stopped.It was malfunction,Sralin ordered schoot half of crew,and they were running again.
When train stopped again and it was Brezniew turn,he said that they would pretend that train is still working.
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
Problem, Russia needed to industrialize quickly, or have you forgotten that those five-year plans were Trotsky's idea in the first place? Stalin only implemented them.
When Trotsky -Lenin's right-hand man and far closer to Lenin in ideology than Stalin- recognized the need to crash-industrialize...
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if Trotsky supported Stalin on this issue and only disagreed with him on some other issues.
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
He was like, 'they're my idea, it's just Stalin implemented them horribly' when he was asked about them. Though, given the aforementioned resistance to modernization... you're still going to be on top of a pile of bodies by the end of it.
Yes, hence my cartoon from above:
I thought that the NEP was a success story? It was War Communism that was a huge failure, to my knowledge.
And this one as well:
Another good cartoon about this topic:
Tsarist modernization was nowhere near as bloody and brutal as Bolshevik modernization was.
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
That... isn't entirely the case. You would be surprised at how bloody Russia was during the Tzarist industrialization era, though that kind of ended prematurely with Nicky's predecessor's untimely demise.
The worst pre-Communist Russian famine had less than half a million total deaths:
And the number of people whom Tsarist Russia jailed and executed over its last 100 years was also relatively low:
The Russian Empire: Too Nice For Its Own Good
What everyone thinks the Russian Empire was like. \
www.unz.com
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
Can that be validated, mainly because we've had some lousy academia in that department? Just checking because we've had some groups pulling some 1984 shit on Tzarist Russia.The worst pre-Communist Russian famine had less than half a million total deaths:
And the number of people whom Tsarist Russia jailed and executed over its last 100 years was also relatively low:
The Russian Empire: Too Nice For Its Own Good
What everyone thinks the Russian Empire was like. \www.unz.com