Is "Legend of Korra" any good?

Val the Moofia Boss

Well-known member
Do you also think that communists and Nazis had a point? Or did they not make sense?

IIRC the Equalists' theory was that the benders were objectively, undeniably different from the non-benders (true), and this difference was leading to conflict (dubious). The show never really thoroughly examines this idea. It just boils down to "wagh, benders hurt me when I was a kid! All benders must be eradicated!" and a bunch of guys being sucked into his fearmongering and becoming hypocrites as they use technology (read: pretty much superpowers) to go around beating people up just because.

The first season's storyline would have been interesting if - before leaping straight into "Amon bad, let's beat him up!" - the heroes had instead stopped to examine Amon's arguments and then debunk them. For example,
the Equalists claimed that benders got selected over non-benders for certain jobs (ie, Mako's job at the power plant just using his fire/lightning powers to provide electricity, or maybe an earth bender or could spend up construction by manipulating the earth to quickly dig trenches to lay down pipes or build foundations for buildings, etc). The show could have then showed that it wasn't like non-benders were lower class then benders; they'd just do other jobs, like moving crates in warehouses or being pencil pushing clerks who made the bureaucracy of a company or a government function. Also, the claim that "benders cause conflict!" could easily be debunked by pointing out various non-bender nation leaders (such as the royalty of the Earth Kingdom) and others.
 

Stargazer

Well-known member
:rolleyes: And I can see now that it's pointless to argue with you, because you just refuse to accept any criticism of the show or its main character.

There are plenty of criticisms I could mention of the show. I just think your criticisms are off base, and I've given my reasons why.

IIRC the Equalists' theory was that the benders were objectively, undeniably different from the non-benders (true), and this difference was leading to conflict (dubious). The show never really thoroughly examines this idea. It just boils down to "wagh, benders hurt me when I was a kid! All benders must be eradicated!" and a bunch of guys being sucked into his fearmongering and becoming hypocrites as they use technology (read: pretty much superpowers) to go around beating people up just because.

The first season's storyline would have been interesting if - before leaping straight into "Amon bad, let's beat him up!" - the heroes had instead stopped to examine Amon's arguments and then debunk them. For example,
the Equalists claimed that benders got selected over non-benders for certain jobs (ie, Mako's job at the power plant just using his fire/lightning powers to provide electricity, or maybe an earth bender or could spend up construction by manipulating the earth to quickly dig trenches to lay down pipes or build foundations for buildings, etc). The show could have then showed that it wasn't like non-benders were lower class then benders; they'd just do other jobs, like moving crates in warehouses or being pencil pushing clerks who made the bureaucracy of a company or a government function. Also, the claim that "benders cause conflict!" could easily be debunked by pointing out various non-bender nation leaders (such as the royalty of the Earth Kingdom) and others.

It was more "Benders have this unnatural advantage over non-benders, they oppress non benders with that advantage, and they're the source of conflict in the world. Therefore, let's terrorize the city, violently overthrow the government, and forceably remove bending from people". The show could have addressed that argument explicitly, but... I'm not sure it needed to. I don't need the show to spell it out to me to know that view is wrong and evil. And the show only has so much time in 12 half hour episodes to go in depth on that stuff without detracting from the other character stuff and kung fu action going on. But it still makes sense that people would have that kind of irrational, revolutionary attitude if whipped into a frenzy by a charismatic leader capitalizing on discontent (re: revolutionary movements of the 20th century). So I don't think the Equalists needed all of that to still be an interesting antagonist force.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Well at least you're consistent by not much liking Toph either. I love Toph, so I think there's some deeper different strokes going on here than just not liking Korra's attitude. And it's worth noting that that opinion of Toph puts you in the minority of ATLA fans as she's always been a fan favorite.

And I was responding to you specifically mentioning Korra beating three "experienced firebenders"; are you dropping that as part of your point? I've already covered her attitude and why it appealed to me, so we've just got to agree to disagree on that one.
On the contrary, I have a bit more education and background than most for character analysis so I can see it more clearly, but I think most fans would agree with me on Toph. The thing is, your little gotcha won't work. Toph's not a main but rather a supporting character, which like a villain uses a different ruleset than main character heroes, and she can be appreciated (I do enjoy seeing her there) in that role. If they tried to make a Legend of Toph spinoff I suspect it would fail badly because she hasn't the depth to be the main character. Korra would also work well as a supporting character but doesn't work as a main for similar reasons.

The "Three Experienced Firebenders" I did answer when I pointed out Aang defeated zero experienced firebenders in his first episode and only one in his second. Korra was "cool" because she was doing all these extreme badass things in her first five minutes onscreen in a rush to show how awesome and cool she was, bending all these elements and sticking it to those old fogies who couldn't appreciate her awesomeness and running away from home which Katara mysteriously supported even though, with what Katara remembers from Aang running away, she should have been dragging Korra back home by the ear berating her the whole way. Whether Aang also ever defeated three firebenders (yes) is less relevant given we're talking about how the character is introduced and their attitude, and I've mentioned I'm not hung up on raw power levels.

Thought so. No, it makes perfect sense. It's not unprecedented given the rate of advancement in our own world between 1850 and 1920. If anything, our world advanced faster than the Avatar world in that time period. Steam power had just been invented here while the Fire Main already had it for 100 years.
The first industrial steam engine used for work was built by Thomas Savery in 1698, one hundred fifty years before the 1850s. We were playing with steam engines as early as the first century and suspect there were numerous working steam engines centuries before Savery engine, f'rex Taqi ad-Din describes building a turbine engine he used to turn spits in the mid 16th century.

It's not an especially valid criticism in my mind though, Avatar technology is going to be a bit wonky with bending physics, they appear to have invented the tank and zeppelin before the train and automobile somehow so they're not going to follow our timeline very closely. The bigger issue isn't "Is it realistic for this tech to advance" (We can't tell either way because bending's going to change how they advance and in what direction), but "Is it suited to tell stories in the world of Avatar?" A lot of people don't feel the aesthetic just doesn't work for a world of elemental sorcerers who use martial arts and have to be attuned to their environment to prevent spirits from going berserk on them for cutting down too many trees or polluting a river.
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
Do you also think that communists and Nazis had a point? Or did they not make sense?
Actually, it's quite easy to see the underlyijg causes and effects of what lead to both the Nazi takeover of Germany and the Russian Revolution. In a sense, as they took power, both did, in fact, have a point. There WERE bad circumstances their ideologies acted to answer and counter, and you can see how reasonable people could end up going along with it.

That's one of the big underlying problems with the Equalists. We are not shown the underlying problems that the Philosophy is supposed to be addressing. They are, functionally, a revolutionary communist movement, but their target in Benders makes no sense given what we saw... in fact, one can make an argument that a traditional communist movement (focused on wealth and class) would make MORE sense than they do, given the amount of power we see wealthy industrialists throw around. When the show had the opportunity to showcase the kind of things needed to make the Equalist position understandable, it didn't, and in fact tended to send the opposite message. For instance, rather than have the police and Lin just shrug and say something like "they're just non-benders" when we see shopkeepers roughed up by the Triple Threat Triad, instead we see them being actively pursued and Lin calling Korra out not for intervening, but for intervening poorly and causing collateral damage. That indicates that the powers that be care and don't make distinctions between the two types of people.

This is what people mean when they talk about the Equalists not making sense. The show of the setting doesn't mesh with their rhetoric, and it creates a dissonance in the viewer that ends up breaking the suspension of disbelief.
 

Stargazer

Well-known member
On the contrary, I have a bit more education and background than most for character analysis so I can see it more clearly, but I think most fans would agree with me on Toph. The thing is, your little gotcha won't work. Toph's not a main but rather a supporting character, which like a villain uses a different ruleset than main character heroes, and she can be appreciated (I do enjoy seeing her there) in that role. If they tried to make a Legend of Toph spinoff I suspect it would fail badly because she hasn't the depth to be the main character. Korra would also work well as a supporting character but doesn't work as a main for similar reasons.

Now you're changing your tune. A moment ago your were saying you get a kick out of her being "humbled". That's not enjoying a character, and no, most fans aren't with you on that. Fans cheer at the moment Toph declares that she's "the greatest earthbender in the world!" If your education and background gets you to this kind of attitude, that's not "seeing more clearly", it's made you into a stick in the mud.

The "Three Experienced Firebenders" I did answer when I pointed out Aang defeated zero experienced firebenders in his first episode and only one in his second. Korra was "cool" because she was doing all these extreme badass things in her first five minutes onscreen in a rush to show how awesome and cool she was, bending all these elements and sticking it to those old fogies who couldn't appreciate her awesomeness and running away from home which Katara mysteriously supported even though, with what Katara remembers from Aang running away, she should have been dragging Korra back home by the ear berating her the whole way. Whether Aang also ever defeated three firebenders (yes) is less relevant given we're talking about how the character is introduced and their attitude, and I've mentioned I'm not hung up on raw power levels.

How is beating three "experienced", but unnamed, firebenders an "extreme badass thing"? Extreme how? You say I'm hung up on power levels but you're the one using the language of "extreme" when it's peanuts compared to what Aang did. You continue to conflate Korra being introduced at a different point in her training and having a different attitude than Aang with being better than Aang. Words have meaning.

And Korra running off to try to train with Tenzin is more akin to Katara running off to try to save Aang from Zuko after they first met, if anything. She was resolved to do it with or without her grandmother's approval, because she felt it was her responsibility. Also, there was more context about why Korra was held in the compound and how it was unjust. The Avatar traditionally leaves home to travel the world to train when they're 16, that's considered the age of adulthood in the Avatar world. Korra is 17 at the start of the show, not 12 like Aang. If she felt she had the responsibility to go train with Tenzin, the White Lotus had no right to hold her against her will. And it was never Aang's desire for his successor to be holed up in a compound like that anyways.

This is all important context, but for someone who claims "more background than most for character analysis" you don't seem very big on context.

The first industrial steam engine used for work was built by Thomas Savery in 1698, one hundred fifty years before the 1850s. We were playing with steam engines as early as the first century and suspect there were numerous working steam engines centuries before Savery engine, f'rex Taqi ad-Din describes building a turbine engine he used to turn spits in the mid 16th century.

It's not an especially valid criticism in my mind though, Avatar technology is going to be a bit wonky with bending physics, they appear to have invented the tank and zeppelin before the train and automobile somehow so they're not going to follow our timeline very closely. The bigger issue isn't "Is it realistic for this tech to advance" (We can't tell either way because bending's going to change how they advance and in what direction), but "Is it suited to tell stories in the world of Avatar?" A lot of people don't feel the aesthetic just doesn't work for a world of elemental sorcerers who use martial arts and have to be attuned to their environment to prevent spirits from going berserk on them for cutting down too many trees or polluting a river.

Yes, sure, humans were experimenting with steam power long before the industrial revolution hit and it actually became widespread. But when I say the Fire Nation had steam power, I mean that they already had a fleet of metal steam powered warships at the outset of the Hundred Year War. That's way, way ahead industrially and technologically than the our world circa 1750, both in power generation and metallurgy.

Whether or not it's an aesthetic suited for the stories in the world of Avatar is more in the realm of opinion and personal taste. If you don't like it, you don't like it. Me, I liked it from the outset. And it's worth noting that the post-series ATLA comics do a lot to show the industrialization of the Fire Nation colonies in the Earth Kingdom and the conflict that brings (including conflict with spirits) in the years following the end of the war.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
Yeah, one of the biggest problems with LoK is that it's limited to 12 30-minute episodes each season. ATLA isn't that constrained in comparison. Personally, I would have given LoK triple the episode count per season to properly lay out the world (I lost count on how many episodes of ATLA were simply laying out the world).
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Now you're changing your tune. A moment ago your were saying you get a kick out of her being "humbled". That's not enjoying a character, and no, most fans aren't with you on that. Fans cheer at the moment Toph declares that she's "the greatest earthbender in the world!" If your education and background gets you to this kind of attitude, that's not "seeing more clearly", it's made you into a stick in the mud.
There's no change of tune, and I wish you'd quit trying to score these cheap "gotchas." I enjoy the character in large part because she gets humbled from time to time. If Katara didn't take Toph down a peg a few times, if Toph's own stupid arrogance didn't get her captured repeatedly, if she didn't need correction from Uncle Iroh because she had no idea how to train Aang, etc. etc. Toph would be insufferable.

Who are these fans that cheered? How many of them, and why did they cheer? Vague fuzzy appeals to the bandwagon that can't be backed up are weak. Let's talk numbers.

She's also not as popular as you're trying to claim. F'rex on Fanfiction.net, you'll find only 5.1K stories with Toph as the main character vs. 9.8K for Aang, 16.7K for Katara, and an impressive 19.2K for Zuko. Toph is good for memes but lacks actual staying power. How about drawings? Toph has 57.3K Deviations, Aang has 72.5, Katara has 80.8, and Zuko has 91.4. Toph does not actually draw the attention a "Fan Favorite" that everybody cheers for would.

How is beating three "experienced", but unnamed, firebenders an "extreme badass thing"? Extreme how? You say I'm hung up on power levels but you're the one using the language of "extreme" when it's peanuts compared to what Aang did. You continue to conflate Korra being introduced at a different point in her training and having a different attitude than Aang with being better than Aang. Words have meaning.
You realize this isn't an argument you can actually win?

If you want to pull out "different points in training" Korra's over the top because she was bending three elements at once as a five-year-old.

If you don't then she's over the top due to beating down three guys in her first five minutes of screentime compared to Aang taking multiple episodes to win his first fight.

Either way, you lose.
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
She's also not as popular as you're trying to claim. F'rex on Fanfiction.net, you'll find only 5.1K stories with Toph as the main character vs. 9.8K for Aang, 16.7K for Katara, and an impressive 19.2K for Zuko. Toph is good for memes but lacks actual staying power. How about drawings? Toph has 57.3K Deviations, Aang has 72.5, Katara has 80.8, and Zuko has 91.4. Toph does not actually draw the attention a "Fan Favorite" that everybody cheers for would.

These numbers seem pretty confounded by the purpose of a huge chunk of fanfic and drawings on deviant art.

If you want to pull out "different points in training" Korra's over the top because she was bending three elements at once as a five-year-old.

I disagree that this was actually impressive. None of those guys are named or established to be very good. That was barely a step up from someone taking out three fire nation mooks, which I'm pretty sure Aang does fairly casually even in the opening episodes of Season 1.
 
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Bear Ribs

Well-known member
These numbers seem pretty confounded by the purpose of a huge chunk of fanfic and drawings on deviant art.
Yes, generally females get much more work especially in the form of art than males, so Toph losing out to male characters makes her especially weak in popularity. Even Suki has more Deviations than Toph does and Sokka's only a bit behind her.

Legend of Korra, of course, is far, far less popular. There are fewer LOK stories for all characters combined than just ones for Katara alone. Deviations are much harder to quantify: since her name's in the show title a great deal of non-Korra pics still have her tagged and DA doesn't categorize by original work the way FF does.

If you have your own numbers I'd be interested in seeing them if they don't consist of buzzwords and bandwagon appeals. However, all the other ratings for Korra were also quite bad.

The Last Airbender started out with 3.1M viewers and steadily increased, hitting a peak of 5.6M for the finale. How about Korra?
EFubH0s.png


Ouch. Yeah, people steadily dropped it and viewers moved on to other, better shows.

I disagree that this was actually impressive. None of those guys are named or established to be very good. That was barely a step up from someone taking out three fire nation mooks, which I'm pretty sure Aang does fairly casually even in the opening episodes of Season 1.
I'm a touch confused as to why you're bringing up guys who might or might not be good in response to "Korra bending three elements at once as a toddler." I'm guessing you got your wires crossed with a different argument but I'm going to reinforce the one I actually made.

The previous show made a point about how finding the Avatar required mixing the Avatar relics into a collection of thousands of toys, and only the Avatar would unerringly seek the relics out. This process wouldn't be the go-to plan for generation after generation if Korra's bending three elements as a toddler wasn't something way out of left field.

 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
Ouch. Yeah, people steadily dropped it and viewers moved on to other, better shows.
There's some other reasons for Korra's decline in viewship over time, especially the drop between the 1st Season and 2nd, as IIRC, the First Season was actually AIRED on TV, while the 2nd was moved to streaming only with very little fanfare or advertisement. I remember when it actually aired and it was a complete pain to watch the new episodes as the streaming at the time was... poor.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
There's some other reasons for Korra's decline in viewship over time, especially the drop between the 1st Season and 2nd, as IIRC, the First Season was actually AIRED on TV, while the 2nd was moved to streaming only with very little fanfare or advertisement. I remember when it actually aired and it was a complete pain to watch the new episodes as the streaming at the time was... poor.
There are always confounding factors somewhere, but a switch to stream in season 2 wouldn't have caused it to lose a million viewers on the third episode, and never getting all the way back from that.

That said because there are always confounding factors, I prefer to use multiple lines of evidence and see if they all agree. Korra having lower viewership numbers but higher fanfic and deviations would be consistent with a switch to streaming and lots of piracy, f'rex, but Korra having low viewership numbers, low fanfic numbers, and low fanart numbers strongly suggests it just wasn't popular.
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
I'm a touch confused as to why you're bringing up guys who might or might not be good in response to "Korra bending three elements at once as a toddler."

Yeah, I had meant to quote this:

If you don't then she's over the top due to beating down three guys in her first five minutes of screentime compared to Aang taking multiple episodes to win his first fight.



On Toph, what I was pointing out was shipping.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Yeah, I had meant to quote this:
That's... a complete nonsense answer to the point I made given I was talking about how fast into her introduction (less than five minutes) she started beating people up. How strong those people were doesn't figure into it at all.

On Toph, what I was pointing out was shipping.
And this means... what? You think nobody ships Toph?
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
It isn't that she is a Sue. It's that she embodied the Tumblr agenda that people would eventually push so hard it resulted in star wars nearly being banned from China because it's lead actors looked so ugly and androgynous that the CCP considered their casting to be an attack on traditional aesthetics and family values.

And you know what they were right?

Korra isn't a sue, she isn't even remarkable. She's a grotesquely entitled failure, who through sheer entitlement and arrogance manages to fail so spectacularly she literally destroys her own soul and dooms herself and every Avatar.going forward to non existence to where they had to keep a journal of their own lives just so a tiny amount of their personal experiences carry on to the next generation.

Her story arc wasn't about taking the avatar into a modern age but completely deconstructing the mythology of her own universe and bringing this modernistic, hipster speak nonsense that made the Avatar setting bland, ugly and mean.

Korra wasn't a hero, she wasn't a villain, she wasn't even a great bender. She was a failure who dragged society down and unironically proved the Red Lotus right about her.

Edit- for God's sakes she condemns Azulon in the comics not for spending 75 years genociding the fuck out of the Northern Water Tribe and apartheiding parts of earth kingdom but because he criminalized Gay marriage and making Firenation society more traditional and geared towards reproduction and production to ensure that his society y'know had enough soldiers for a century long war.

As if that's the old monster's greatest sin.

All because it effected her thirst for billionaire titty.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
It isn't that she is a Sue. It's that she embodied the Tumblr agenda that people would eventually push so hard it resulted in star wars nearly being banned from China because it's lead actors looked so ugly and androgynous that the CCP considered their casting to be an attack on traditional aesthetics and family values.

And you know what they were right?

Korra isn't a sue, she isn't even remarkable. She's a grotesquely entitled failure, who through sheer entitlement and arrogance manages to fail so spectacularly she literally destroys her own soul and dooms herself and every Avatar.going forward to non existence to where they had to keep a journal of their own lives just so a tiny amount of their personal experiences carry on to the next generation.

Her story arc wasn't about taking the avatar into a modern age but completely deconstructing the mythology of her own universe and bringing this modernistic, hipster speak nonsense that made the Avatar setting bland, ugly and mean.

Korra wasn't a hero, she wasn't a villain, she wasn't even a great bender. She was a failure who dragged society down and unironically proved the Red Lotus right about her.

Edit- for God's sakes she condemns Azulon in the comics not for spending 75 years genociding the fuck out of the Northern Water Tribe and apartheiding parts of earth kingdom but because he criminalized Gay marriage and making Firenation society more traditional and geared towards reproduction and production to ensure that his society y'know had enough soldiers for a century long war.

As if that's the old monster's greatest sin.

All because it effected her thirst for billionaire titty.
Huh, didn't realize it got that bad towards the end after I dropped the show. I just knew Korra had the extremely self-entitled "It's all about me" too-cool attitude that seems to infest modern characters and also terrible self-inserts, and I say that as a person who greatly enjoys reading self-insert fic.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
Huh, didn't realize it got that bad towards the end after I dropped the show. I just knew Korra had the extremely self-entitled "It's all about me" too-cool attitude that seems to infest modern characters and also terrible self-inserts, and I say that as a person who greatly enjoys reading self-insert fic.

I admire your fortitude to be able to read SI fiction. I've always found it incredibly difficult.

But yeah it got bad at the shows end and then the comics went into full depravity town
 

Bassoe

Well-known member
That's one of the big underlying problems with the Equalists. We are not shown the underlying problems that the Philosophy is supposed to be addressing. They are, functionally, a revolutionary communist movement, but their target in Benders makes no sense given what we saw... in fact, one can make an argument that a traditional communist movement (focused on wealth and class) would make MORE sense than they do, given the amount of power we see wealthy industrialists throw around. When the show had the opportunity to showcase the kind of things needed to make the Equalist position understandable, it didn't, and in fact tended to send the opposite message. For instance, rather than have the police and Lin just shrug and say something like "they're just non-benders" when we see shopkeepers roughed up by the Triple Threat Triad, instead we see them being actively pursued and Lin calling Korra out not for intervening, but for intervening poorly and causing collateral damage. That indicates that the powers that be care and don't make distinctions between the two types of people.
This is unironically why the Equalists being a manufactured movement makes sense. It's almost like the actual conflict was between the wealthy and the poor, with some of the wealthy using their money to support puppet organizations among the poor consisting of 'look at that other group of poor people we've scapegoating as responsible for your suffering, go fight them rather than us'. With said fighting between factions of the poor being used by the status quo leadership as a justification for totalitarian crackdowns and acquisition of increased authority 'for the duration of the emergency'.

Oh, wait, that's exactly what happened.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
This is unironically why the Equalists being a manufactured movement makes sense. It's almost like the actual conflict was between the wealthy and the poor, with some of the wealthy using their money to support puppet organizations among the poor consisting of 'look at that other group of poor people we've scapegoating as responsible for your suffering, go fight them rather than us'. With said fighting between factions of the poor being used by the status quo leadership as a justification for totalitarian crackdowns and acquisition of increased authority 'for the duration of the emergency'.

Oh, wait, that's exactly what happened.
Funny thing is that I saw this after several rewatches.
 

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