Ireland "Flies" with its Earls, 1607 -

raharris1973

Well-known member
Ireland teleports to the Bay of Biscay, Cantabrian Sea, just before the departure of Hugh O'Neill and Rory O'Donnell and other leaders of the Catholic nobility.


What happens with Ireland, with Gaelic Irish, old Anglo-Irish, and new English on plantations over the 1600s and 1700s with the island now being closer to France and Spain. What are the effects on Spain, and especially France with Ireland becoming so much more important to those countries and their coastal shipping routes and weather patterns?
 

Buba

A total creep
Maybe use the Tarrantry AU map?

Cannot attach map as it is "unsafe" - click on link or do a search for Tarrantry saga yourself :)

The effect of dragging Ireland a few hundred kilometers south should be same or similar to what you envision? Or did you wish for a more sunny location, like between the latitudes of Nantes and Bordeaux?

One possibility is things staying the same. Even with the shipping times from Ireland to Britain and France reversed, this still is maritime access. And here the English/British have an advantage. For the traditional reason of not having to spend on large army plus almost certain Dutch support (money!) for reasons given below.

Maybe England/Britain lets Ireland go? It no longer is so vital for the Western Approaches.

A country you did not mention yet with some chestnuts in the fire - United Provinces. A southernly Ireland makes access to Amsterdam from the west even worse. Not only the La Manche to run through, but "narrows" around New Location Ireland to fight through as well.
So, maybe it becomes the eight province? The Netherlanders doubtlessly have the money for such a venture and the local Presbyterians (and more presbyterian minded CoE) could be supportive? Especially with the kafflik leanings of the Stuarts?
 
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Buba

A total creep
I saw the map on the "other site". Indeed between "Nantes and Bordeaux".
Well, the likelihood of France or Spain kicking out the English just went up in my estimation :)
Ireland becoming a battleground between those two powers is also possible.
Yachting for pleasure becomes popular and funds a thriving industry in the Bay of Biscay.

Events can go in many different ways:
- Spanish liberation, flight of all Prots, 100% Roman Catholic. Gaelic survives in better shape than OTL, but still diglossia - now with Castillian as upper code;
- French liberation, maybe a flight of Prots in a generation or two. I say maybe as events in France are derailed and possibly is no revocation of Edict of Nantes. Nevertheless no Protestant Ascendency thus the share of Protestants is lower. Gaelic survives - for a time - in better shape than OTL, but still diglossia - now with French as upper code. May be wiped out by III Republic and later Republics.
- the English hang on. It is now easier for dissenters to flee, maybe serving as safety valve? Would there be even bigger repression of Irishness and/or Catholicism?
- Dutch conquest. Now less likely, as the position is less propitious for such a venture as well as less threatening for Dutch shipping.
 
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Skallagrim

Well-known member
I think there'some confusion as to the scale of Ireland and the size of the Bay of Biscay. You could very conventiently place Ireland there, but it certainly wouldn't become a blockade to Dutch access to the Atlantic. It would instead become almost a defensive shield, turning the Bay into an inland sea, and creating strategic choke-points for entry that would be invaluable to whoever holds them.

IRELANDMOVES.png



There can be no question that Ireland becomes vital to the Franco-Spanish alliance. Any Protestants will be removed by any means necessary.



....Anyway, this is obviously ASB, so you should probably ask the mods to move it there, @raharris1973.
 

Buba

A total creep
A picture is worth a thousand words :)
With such narrow passages - Galician Narrows and Breton Tights - holding the island against the Catholic Powers is extremely difficult.
You could very conventiently place Ireland there, but it certainly wouldn't become a blockade to Dutch access to the Atlantic.
I worded my idea poorly :(
I did not have blocking physical access in mind.
Just as Britain does not block access but - if hostile - makes passage dangerous, an Ireland in the Bay of Biscay extends the length of "running the gauntlet" through the La Manche.
On the other hand - the historically used Northern Route for Dutch convoys around Scotland got safer, no?
Franco-Spanish alliance
Wouldn't that be a hundred years in the future? For most of the XVIIth century the two were at one other's throats. France subsidising England to spite the Spanish - like it did with the Dutch under Henri IV - is quite likely and may keep the Emerald Isle under London Rule.

A possible butterfly of the Event could be Henry IV avoiding assassination and living 10 years longer - 66 is an age which is not outrageous. Years during which he props up England and brings up his son as more Protestant friendly. Although the latter is not that important if Ireland is not part of France's Natural Borders - Louis XIV was pretty Protestant friendly when the Protestants in question were foreigners willing to fight the Habsburgs.
 
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Skallagrim

Well-known member
Wouldn't that be a hundred years in the future? For most of the XVIIth century the two were at one other's throats. France subsidising England to spite the Spanish - like it did with the Dutch under Henri IV - is quite likely and may keep the Emerald Isle under London Rule.
That is certainly true. My thinking (in turn, also phrased inexactly) is that the turn towards France-Spain as an alliance is almost inevitable. Spain is going to be a decaying power, England/Britain an ascendant one. The Anglo-Portuguese link will be drawn ever tighter, too, especially as Portugal is also facing a slow decline. The future seems to be set as a rivalry between France (with Spain as an increasingly junior partner) against Britain.

In the longer term, therefore, a Catholic pact of France, Spain and Ireland seems like the obvious outcome here. Their little "inner sea" would be an excellent an excellent staging... uh... ground?... for a naval build-up. All ports within its confines would be protected, and both points of access would be defended with elaborate fortifications. This would interdict anemy access, while allowing one's own fleet to sortie under heavy artillery cover.



(The shape of the new "sea", incidentally, resembles a stomach. Could it end up being named the "Estomac"? I like that idea; you could even write in the back-story of a British fleet forcing its way in at some point, and then being destroyed and unable to exit safely. Indeed.... "eaten" by the enemy.)
 

Buba

A total creep
Ze eenglish pigdogs enter Le Estomac. Vee eet and sheet zem out. Vive La France!

Future RN blocades of French and/or Spanish coasts got easier? Instead of ALL the Biscany Bay ports now only the two chokepoints.
 

gral

Well-known member
Ze eenglish pigdogs enter Le Estomac. Vee eet and sheet zem out. Vive La France!

Future RN blocades of French and/or Spanish coasts got easier? Instead of ALL the Biscany Bay ports now only the two chokepoints.
Less chokepoints, but close blockade of French and Spanish ports also meant the French and Spanish couldn't sail out to train their men, while the RN could(and did) use the time spent on blockade to train their own men. Here, they have a protected training ground of their own. RN superiority relative to both Spanish and French gets reduced.
 

Earl

Well-known member
Also the religous consuqences because, evidently:

1. Catholcism is the true religon and
2. God really loves Ireland.
 

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