Human & Vampire Equality

[ShieldWife]

Can vampires and humans openly live as equals in a society without a Masquerade or the equivalent? Something like True Blood?

I see a lot of discussion about that idea and I always think it’s ridiculous. Vampires and humans can’t live as equals, because the existence of vampires is such a fundamental game changer with regard to how we perceive reality and what possibilities exist, that either vampires and vampirism comes to utterly dominate society OR humanity violently reacts to vampires and we are able to win a conflict against them and vampires are either wiped out or hunted into hiding.

A major reason for this is immortality. If vampires are unaging, as they are in almost all fiction, then almost everybody is going to want to become a vampire, if not when they are young then when they are facing down death. Humans will serve vampires in the hopes of being transformed or demand to become vampires too. If vampires have supernatural powers at all, especially mind control powers, then humans are going to fear and hate them and it might be justified.

What does everybody else think? Can humans and vampires openly coexist and, if so, how?

 

[Darth Robbhi]

The issue isn't immortality. Our literature is full of stories of immortality as a curse, not a blessing. There are major downsides to being immortal amongst those who are not.

The big issue is predator/prey. If vampires treat humans as prey, we will kill them. Humans are VERY good at ruthlessly dealing with existential threats. The only ones we have not killed are tornadoes, earthquakes and hurricanes.

Yet.

 

[ShieldWife]

Though vampires don’t strictly need to deal with humans as prey. They could simply buy human blood, assuming they need it, and that could theoretically work.

Even if there are downsides to immortality, humans don’t want to die and are going to do what it takes to survive, including becoming vampires.

 

[Darth Robbhi]

Though vampires don’t strictly need to deal with humans as prey. They could simply buy human blood, assuming they need it, and that could theoretically work.

Even if there are downsides to immortality, humans don’t want to die and are going to do what it takes to survive, including becoming vampires.

Humans don't want to die meaninglessly. We're quite willing to die when it matters. Lots of humans also recognize there is a time to die. Few people can handle losing everything and everyone they love, repeatedly.

Vampires don't have to treat humans like prey. The question is whether they are willing to bend the knee, or they think because we are tasty we are inferior.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Coexistence with vampire drops us down a rung on the food chain. Humanity didn't struggle for millenias to be on the top of the chain, just to give up the first place to humanoid mosquitos.

 

[S'task]

Coexistence with vampire drops us down a rung on the food chain. Humanity didn't struggle for millenias to be on the top of the chain, just to give up the first place to humanoid mosquitos.

Humans in a pure state of nature are hardly on the top of the food chain. There's plenty of predators that can take down an adult male human in peak physical condition with little risk, to say nothing of women or children.

Vampires are akin to those predators, they either cease to predate on humans, or we would wipe them out, but as others note, vampires certainly could still feed on human blood for exsistence they just would have to do it in a non-predatory fashion via payment or compensation.

A large part of the question entirely depends on how powerful the Vampires in question are and which platter of supernatural abilities do they get? The greater the power differential, the less likely coexistence is. If Vampires are just a bit stronger, faster (within reasonable physics), and immortal... then sure, I can see coexistence playing out fairly reasonably. But if they have the laundry list of supernatural powers like turning into mist, mind control, etc., well... then no, I really don't think we could.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't think it would last. Enough people want immortality to destabilise the situation. It is the ultimate vanity, particularly in the modern atheistic age.

 

[prinCZess]

Depends on the style of vampires, and perhaps even more-so depends on what kind of 'vampire culture' has propped up (or cultures, I suppose).

Superpowers and turning-into-fog plus immortality are going to cause a lot more problems, obviously, because people would be jealous/afraid. But on the same token, if there is some outright 'Satan cursed us with this' sentiment in vampire society--or even a strong enough sense of 'Actually being immortal kind of sucks (heh). There was this restaurant in Constantinople that made the best baclava. And don't even get me started on how succulent dodo was. but am I ever going to get to have it again? Nooooo' (only...perhaps more serious). In those cases, spreading the 'curse' might have impetus against it among vampires, and that would make society adjusting for them much easier.
If, on the other hand, they're closer to being the 'monsters of instinct and passion' they get presented as oftentimes...Not going to have it.

 

[Deleted member]

What if there’s enough diversity that some Vampires can be good as a choice, ala the cow blood drinking Detective Nick Knight of the Toronto PD?

 

[Big Steve]

I'm also thinking Black Ribboners from Discworld.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm also thinking Black Ribboners from Discworld.

When was that book from? I almost wonder if there was cross-pollination from Forever Knight.

 

[Big Steve]

When was that book from? I almost wonder if there was cross-pollination from Forever Knight.

I'm talking about the late Sir Terry Pratchett's Discworld series. Over several of the books he established vampires moving into Ankh-Morpork (along with virtually everything else) and that they all became Black Ribboners. Basically "Alcoholics Anonymous" for vampires swearing off the blood of sapient species like Humans and Dwarves, with the vamps buying animal blood from butchers instead and seeking to exist in normal society. Well, save for the whole problem about crumbling into ash in intense sunlight or under bright light, but they have protective clothes and kits of animal blood for those kinds of issues (when they crumble up the bottle smashes and the blood brings them back).

Like most things in Discworld (well, all, I suppose), Pratchett plays it both humorously and with seriousness.

I don't remember the first book to mention the Black Ribboners, so there might've been some cross-pollination.

If they ever get that Ankh-Morpork city watch series going, maybe they'll adapt Sally (aka Salacia) and she'll invoke some Forever Knight memories. Otto Chriek (vampire photographer for the Ankh-Morpork Times) could also be adapted.

 

[Deleted member]

The difference is that instead of humour, Forever Knight was High Gothic Melodrama.

 

[Sailor.X]

The issue isn't immortality. Our literature is full of stories of immortality as a curse, not a blessing. There are major downsides to being immortal amongst those who are not.

The big issue is predator/prey. If vampires treat humans as prey, we will kill them. Humans are VERY good at ruthlessly dealing with existential threats. The only ones we have not killed are tornadoes, earthquakes and hurricanes.

Yet.

We could always say to the Vampires. You remember the Greek Mythological Monsters that use to hunt us. Yeah when was the last time you seen one of them. What you say you haven't seen them in a few thousand years. Yeah keep that in mind if you decide to fuck with us.

 

[Lanmandragon]

I doubt it severely we've fought each other over stupid crap literally forever. I 100% don't think humans will magically cooperate with another species. Whether it be vampires or aliens our reactions going to be violent.

 

[Deleted member]

I doubt it severely we've fought each other over stupid crap literally forever. I 100% don't think humans will magically cooperate with another species. Whether it be vampires or aliens our reactions going to be violent.

Yes. Vampires either hiding from humans or ruling them has always made perfect sense to me because of this, it's actually a quite grounded part of the stereotypical mythos.

 

[FriedCFour]

Though vampires don’t strictly need to deal with humans as prey. They could simply buy human blood, assuming they need it, and that could theoretically work.

Even if there are downsides to immortality, humans don’t want to die and are going to do what it takes to survive, including becoming vampires.

Some would. A whole lot of others believe that a place awaits for them after death, and committing to an aberration like Vampirism would certainly be against that. It's why Catholics are the natural enemy of Vampires. To actively decide you want to be a vampire you'd need to be pretty committed to being willing to murder to survive. Either way Vampire hunters >>>> Vampires.

 

[Deleted member]

Some would. A whole lot of others believe that a place awaits for them after death, and committing to an aberration like Vampirism would certainly be against that. It's why Catholics are the natural enemy of Vampires. To actively decide you want to be a vampire you'd need to be pretty committed to being willing to murder to survive. Either way Vampire hunters >>>> Vampires.

The other possibility of course is that a Vampire is in fact a demon inhabiting a dead body; Sunglasses after Dark (the Sonja Blue chronicles) directly takes that approach.

 

[ShieldWife]

I’m not necessarily saying that everybody will want to be a vampire, but there can’t be much middle ground between immortality and damnation. If you think vampirism is no big deal but you’d rather not be one, you will soon change your mind when your own mortality becomes more evident. You will only say no to immortality if you think death is preferable to being a vampire.

Can there be a stable society when some humans would do anything to become a vampire and others think they it is better to die than be a vampire with very little middle ground? Something has to give.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

The first question is what power(s) (and weaknesses) the vampires have.

There is a large difference between, say, a BtVS minion vamp and a Twilight vamp.

Since the OP mentioned True Blood, vampires on that level (absent supernatural opposition) would have been openly and perpetually ruling humanity for eons before the modern day.

A newborn True Blood vampire is still superhumanly strong and fast, is only really weak to silver and sunlight (a stake through the heart kills humans just as well as vamps so is irrelevant), and has mind control abilities.

One of them against a 19th century (or earlier) human society is akin to a god. Wear a heavy curriass (without need to care about weight, endurance, or heat they can wear very heavy armor), grab a sword, and you can kill an entire battlefield without issue.

A vamp on par with Eric or Godric? Who have reaction speeds so fast that they can literally dodge supersonic shrapnel, sensory abilities beyond any modern technology, strength enough to crush steel in their bare hands, and flight?

Eric or Godric could depopulate a city in True Blood, after the population is aware of vampires, pretty much with impunity.

And note that this doesn't include serious use of the two most powerful abilities of True Blood vamps; their ability to create progeny that can not disobey their orders and their ability to mind rape regular humans. A single vampire who wants to could co-opt pretty much any human power structure and build their own perfectly loyal army of super humans.

Humans might well be vicious bastards when faced with anything that preys on us, but vampires were (or are) human too and they combine that with fairly top tier superhuman abilities.

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Realistically speaking, humanity is ruled by an immortal vampiric aristocracy long before the modern age and/or the technology is developed that is needed to potentially oppose them.

As for vampires showing up and actual equality occuring; no. Either vampirism offers benefits sufficiently attractive that you are going to see it spread like wildfire across the population as people are willingly embraced or it is a threat to be exterminated without hesitation or mercy