How much purchasing power would you be willing to lose to support Ukraine?

[bintananth]

You do realize that world war 1 the US leadership actively provoked itself into the war. The American upper class were sympathetic towards the British, and manipulated things to get America to declare war.

It's not as simple as that. The "I like money" you get from Idiocracy and 1910s America was not universal among the wealthy.

 

[King Arts]

You don't think the same won't happen to those of us in the states? We have been trying to clean up our house guess whatever single attempt has been undermined either by people who straight up lie about their positions and don't reveal themselves until after they are already elected (like every neeocon and rhino ever) and or people who get backstabbed like DeSantis and trump and we have seen what happens when people make their disdain publicly known (Jan 6th) but no we don't get support or empathy from our European "allies" we get mocked, cursed and blamed for the mistakes our great great grandparents made. well, guess what your ancestors sold you out as much as our ancestors have sold us out. Curse your mother and your father and those that came before them as well as ours if you want to properly blame someone so for your present troubles.

or you know we could go with my preferred option and just all have a drink and persevere together in all of this.

This is a stupid argument. I mean the rejectionist is Italian. His ancestors did not sell him out to American hegemony, the only ones you could argue are responsible are the British, and maybe the French. The Germans, Italians, and Japanese fought hard against that, they just lost because they weren't, big enough, strong, enough, or technologically advanced enough to beat America back.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

This is a stupid argument. I mean the rejectionist is Italian. His ancestors did not sell him out to American hegemony, the only ones you could argue are responsible are the British, and maybe the French. The Germans, Italians, and Japanese fought hard against that, they just lost because they weren't, big enough, strong, enough, or technologically advanced enough to beat America back.

this argument isn't just for him it's for people like you and agent23 as well.

 

[Marduk]

The Germans, Italians, and Japanese fought hard against that,

Don't tell me what hegemony they were fighting against, tell me what hegemony they were fighting for

 

[King Arts]

this argument isn't just for him it's for people like you and agent23 as well.

Umm I'm not pro Russian, so what are you trying to get at?

Don't tell me what hegemony they were fighting against, tell me what hegemony they were fighting for

Nazi Germany I'll grant you. But were the other two some new thing? They were basically trying to build colonial empires. Yes they were brutal and oppressive, but that was all stuff done historically.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Umm I'm not pro Russian, so what are you trying to get at?

I thought you were one of the people going on about how based Russia was for fighting against us "Dirty globalist Americans" who is it that I'm thinking of?

Nazi Germany I'll grant you. But were the other two some new thing? They were basically trying to build colonial empires. Yes they were brutal and oppressive, but that was all stuff done historically.

and if you had your way and your dream world came to pass, your family probably would have been wiped out and you would have never been born. Does that not at least disturb you in some way?

 

[King Arts]

I thought you were one of the people going on about how based Russia was for fighting against us "Dirty globalist Americans" who is it that I'm thinking of?

???
No, I am against Russia invading all of Eastern Europe. The invasion of Ukraine is wrong, and Russia did many war crimes, Ukraine may not be a "democracy" or not corrupt but I think they are the lighter shade of grey here compared to Russia. I support giving aid to Ukraine, but I'm against sanctioning Russia.
As for dirty globalist. I would not mind a stronger Russia or China, because I think letting one empire gain supreme power over the earth is bad because it will get turned against you by antichrists. You can just look at how America's government is oppressing some of it's citizens. If they get full power then no where is safe to run, and you are fucked.

 

[bintananth]

this argument isn't just for him it's for people like you and agent23 as well.

I would like to point out that "not technologically advanced enough" applied to the Allies just as much as it did to the Axis.

Japanese torpedoes and optical rangefinders (especially at night) were the best in the world. A WWII Japanese Type 93 torpedo and a modern American Mk.48 ADCAP have about the same maximum range.

(21nmi @ 55kts v. 22nmi @ 35kts)

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

???
No, I am against Russia invading all of Eastern Europe. The invasion of Ukraine is wrong, and Russia did many war crimes, Ukraine may not be a "democracy" or not corrupt but I think they are the lighter shade of grey here compared to Russia. I support giving aid to Ukraine, but I'm against sanctioning Russia.
As for dirty globalist. I would not mind a stronger Russia or China, because I think letting one empire gain supreme power over the earth is bad because it will get turned against you by antichrists. You can just look at how America's government is oppressing some of it's citizens. If they get full power then no where is safe to run, and you are fucked.

alright then I'll admit I was wrong regarding your stance. my apologies.

 

[History Learner]

And the topic is a false framing, especially for those of us here in the US.

As I explained in my first post on the thread, it is leftist environmentalist and budgetary policies that are causing inflation and loss of PPP. If the Dems hadn't cheated their way to control of the White House and Senate (probably the House of Representatives too), we'd still be expanding our oil production gangbusters, and the downturn in production elsewhere would be an economic positive for the US as we sold more into those markets.

Basic laws of supply and demand are at play here as well; you don't remove production without causing demand inflation. What caused the price of Natural Gas to spike in the U.S. after January of this year, I wonder?

Other nations do not have so clear-cut an advantage, but for example if the German government hadn't insisted on their suicidal dependence on Russian oil, they wouldn't be in so much trouble either.

So instead they could be dependent on more expensive U.S. energy supplies, thus beholden solely to American interests and overriding economic logic to sabotage their own industrial base? If you are Pro-Free Market, this is line of thinking isn't tenable to your professed values.

To make it more clear, No loss of Purchasing Power Parity is necessary to aid the Ukrainians at all.

Is that why Europe is de-industrializing as we speak?

 

[WolfBear]

So instead they could be dependent on more expensive U.S. energy supplies, thus beholden solely to American interests and overriding economic logic to sabotage their own industrial base? If you are Pro-Free Market, this is line of thinking isn't tenable to your professed values.

Yeah, I mean, there was some logic in having Germany push through Nord Stream (2) in the past as a way of encouraging good behavior on Russia's part. Germans presumably couldn't believe that Russia would actually be willing to destroy its remaining economic ties with Europe through a full-on invasion of Ukraine. But Germany should have aimed to get something in exchange for this, such as Russian consent to Ukrainian EU and/or NATO membership.

 

[WolfBear]

This is a stupid argument. I mean the rejectionist is Italian. His ancestors did not sell him out to American hegemony, the only ones you could argue are responsible are the British, and maybe the French. The Germans, Italians, and Japanese fought hard against that, they just lost because they weren't, big enough, strong, enough, or technologically advanced enough to beat America back.

And interestingly enough, "US vassals" Germany, Italy, and Japan produce much more elite science per capita than "sovereign" Russia does. Who's the sucker now?

Don't tell me what hegemony they were fighting against, tell me what hegemony they were fighting for

We were fighting to build the Greater American Empire, aka GAE, that also eventually fights for LGBTQ+ rights.

 

[Marduk]

We were fighting to build the Greater American Empire, aka GAE, that also eventually fights for LGBTQ+ rights.

I'm pretty sure that's not something vast majority of the people fighting had in mind at the time.

 

[WolfBear]

I'm pretty sure that's not something vast majority of the people fighting had in mind at the time.

Yeah, US WWII soldiers were pretty hardcore on cultural questions:

 

[WolfBear]

Nowadays Poland is more homophobic than Ukraine is in terms of its policies/situation, which is interesting:

 

[ATP]

Nowadays Poland is more homophobic than Ukraine is in terms of its policies/situation, which is interesting:

Rather we are more normal.And,Ukraine problem is mainly Moscov,when our - also leftist which try to fuck us.

 

[History Learner]

Yeah, I mean, there was some logic in having Germany push through Nord Stream (2) in the past as a way of encouraging good behavior on Russia's part. Germans presumably couldn't believe that Russia would actually be willing to destroy its remaining economic ties with Europe through a full-on invasion of Ukraine. But Germany should have aimed to get something in exchange for this, such as Russian consent to Ukrainian EU and/or NATO membership.

The problem was this was never about geopolitical goals for Germany; Russian gas just made economic sense after they turned against Nuclear following the 1998 elections. American gas isn't competitive naturally against Russian.

 

[Carrot of Truth]

The problem was this was never about geopolitical goals for Germany; Russian gas just made economic sense after they turned against Nuclear following the 1998 elections. American gas isn't competitive naturally against Russian.

If everyone would just pull their heads out of their asses about nuclear energy none of this would even be necessary

 

[WolfBear]

The problem was this was never about geopolitical goals for Germany; Russian gas just made economic sense after they turned against Nuclear following the 1998 elections. American gas isn't competitive naturally against Russian.

Well, having Germany turn nuclear was a mistake, IMHO. What caused their atomophobia? Leftist propaganda?

 

[History Learner]

If everyone would just pull their heads out of their asses about nuclear energy none of this would even be necessary

You still need Natural Gas for industrial process applications and things like fertilizer until Gen IV Fission or Fusion gets sorted out.