Italian and because Russia wants to be able to blackmail Europe in order to do what ever they want.
They could have gone nuclear power, but thier greens decided against that
How much purchasing power would you be willing to lose to support Ukraine?
- Thread starter Agent23
- Start date
They could have gone nuclear power, but thier greens decided against that
King Arts
Well-known member
All nations use their influence to make others do what they want. America used it's influence to stop Europe from condemning the Iraq invasion. But why should Italy, and Germany care about Ukraine? Can you tell me why they should care if those two are fighting?
Because it means Russia is closer to the West as well as has abandoned to undermine NATO, and try and destroy NATO by showing it doesn't work.
And doing that leaves a lot of countries don't want that because they would be invaded.
Russia won't stop unless you stop them.
Russia would go for Poland, the Balkans, and more, pushing to then THREATEN the West.
But guess what? NATO said "Fuck no" and supplied Ukraine
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
Because Russia under Putin has clearly demonstrated that it's still perfectly willing to gobble up chunks of neighboring countries if you let it. Putin said that the collapse of the USSR was a tragedy.
Anyone in Europe who doesn't want to be ruled from Moscow should be happy to see the Russians stopped in Ukraine, rather than letting them move further West.
King Arts
Well-known member
While Russia WANTS Poland and Eastern Europe, it's in NATO and that IS our bussiness/interest so that is something to care about, Russia even in it's wildest dreams would not be able to push and take Italy for example none of it's empires ever did so. Taking Germany would also be too much danger and work. They only managed after world war 2 because Germany idiotically wasted so much of it's energy starting a world war.
Also there is nothing wrong with giving supplies to Ukraine, I support that. This thread though is about how much to sacrafice on behalf of Ukraine. Giving weapons for Ukraine to use against Russia won't directly hurt America, like sanctions for example have. If sacrafice is truly neccesary like many militarists say, why can't we postpone the sacrafice until later? Why risk nuclear war NOW? Why not let us enjoy 10 more years and then consider it?
Anyway @Agent23 your poll is not very good. You give percentages of purchasing power, but what does that mean? Like what does 10% vs 20% look like? If you put it in terms of gas prices, if before this gas was 3 dollars a gallon, I'd be ok with a 50 cent increase to 3.50 a gallon for a year or two.
I mean yes it was bad for Russia, just like the fall of the British Empire was bad for the UK. Many English still wax poetic and are nostalgic for the days of empire, India though doesen't have a big chip on it's shoulder like Americans do about a country half way around the world that did not even oppress them.
Also Russia being stopped in Ukraine would be great, but again for Germans or Italians it's not worth losing economic prosperity since a Russian Empire would be not that much of a bigger threat to them than the Americans or Chinese and their hegemonic dominance.
Rejectionist is an Italian IIRC.
Bear Ribs
Well-known member
Can I just comment on how Dadaist absurd it feels to see somebody complaining about how Israelis and Nazis are allied together in their paranoid rant?
You do not need to lost anything - only use coal again.Easily done - if EU would not be ruled by leftist and germans - who are Moscov allies.
Germans do not gave anything - they still want rule Europe.This time,with Moscov as allies.And it would worked,if putin do not started war.Well,there must be some hidden plot,he is kgb so he could not be stupid.
And about energy - germans had enough coal and technology to turn it into gas.
And,@Bear Ribs ,Izrael/nazis alliance isperfectly logical from marxist point of viev - thesis/Izrael/,antithesis/nazis/ ,synthesis/Alliance/
KilroywasNOTHere
"BEEP!"
Because at the end of the day when crap goes down it ends up being the American hand and fist that's always asked to clean crap up. It's US that supposed to clean up the environment, it's US that are supposed to stare down Asia and the middle east it's US that have been keeping the Global economy afloat and it's been like that since the first world war. You want the USA to stop playing Nanny empire, stop sucking off our breast. Form your own military and atop asking us to speak at your political meetings.
King Arts
Well-known member
You do realize that your empire is your own creation? Germany and Europe at large did not ask you to become hegemon of the world? Maybe Britain did, but you decided to get involved all the way back in world war 1 yourselves. You can't really blame someone else for what Americans keep doing and wanting done themselves? I mean it's not Europeans who are voting in your elections and putting in people who want to expand their empire, it's you.
KilroywasNOTHere
"BEEP!"
And when in the last I don't know 80 some odd years have any of the European powers said "Hey look thanks for the help a while back but we don't need it now you worry about your own house." as far as I am aware the answer is zero and guess what the Warhawks in Washington keep using that as an excuse to keep the status quo. Trump tried to level the playing field a bit and he was branded a fascist by both the American and European powers that be. How's that Brexit thing going by the way? Has germany been doing better since gutting it's nuclear program?
TheRejectionist
TheRejectionist
I didn't vote Green. I couldn't even vote until 2013 and influence politics.
Usually those who said that weren't able to get close to politics.
Our politicians haven't represented the interest of the national working class in decades. How do you expect us to tell the US to sod off?
TheRejectionist
TheRejectionist
Paranoid rant to who ? Israel has supported their brother-in-president Zelensky, and Ukraine has explicitly Neo-Nazi militias who pogromized anyone who wasn't a full blooded Ukranian.
bintananth
behind a desk
Not really. The US public wanted to stay the fuck out of both WWI and WWII but oh no, we weren't left alone and a very grumpy dragon woke up and said "enough of this shit".
With WWI it was the Zimmerman Telegram ... which had some German leaders facepalming when they found out about that bit of nonsense.
With WWII it was Pearl Harbor. The American response could be compared to an angry guy from the 'hood who hates you going "Now some shit's about to go down."
KilroywasNOTHere
"BEEP!"
now whatever happened to all that talk about how if the Right had stones, they'd start a civil war?
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King Arts
Well-known member
You do realize that world war 1 the US leadership actively provoked itself into the war. The American upper class were sympathetic towards the British, and manipulated things to get America to declare war.
TheRejectionist
TheRejectionist
Oh for fucks sake. I am not Right or Left.
And the European right never had balls since after WW2. And the left sold out.
None of our politicians want to make Italy sovereign because they are in the American elite pocket.
SO HOW THE FUCK I AM SUPPOSED, UN-ARMED, EVEN WITH OTHERS, TELL TO THE US SOLDIERS AND THE POLITICOS THAT WE WANT THEM OUT ?
WE WOULD AT BEST RECEIVE A TALK THAT AMOUNTS TO A CEASE AND DESIST BUT WITH THE THREAT TO MAKE OUR LIFE MISERABLE.
At WORST, GUNNED DOWN IN A FUCKING BACK ALLEY.
bintananth
behind a desk
I'm aware of that, but the US public wasn't when the US got dragged into both World Wars.
King Arts
Well-known member
They still chose who to make their elites. They had more knowledge and power over their elites than Germans, Russians, Iranians, or Chinese ever did.
KilroywasNOTHere
"BEEP!"
You don't think the same won't happen to those of us in the states? We have been trying to clean up our house guess whatever single attempt has been undermined either by people who straight up lie about their positions and don't reveal themselves until after they are already elected (like every neeocon and rhino ever) and or people who get backstabbed like DeSantis and trump and we have seen what happens when people make their disdain publicly known (Jan 6th) but no we don't get support or empathy from our European "allies" we get mocked, cursed and blamed for the mistakes our great great grandparents made. well, guess what your ancestors sold you out as much as our ancestors have sold us out. Curse your mother and your father and those that came before them as well as ours if you want to properly blame someone so for your present troubles.
or you know we could go with my preferred option and just all have a drink and persevere together in all of this.