Good medium tanks and tank destroyers for german allies.

[ATP]

Hungary,Italy and Japan have shitty medium tanks.Here,we all could made - in plausible way - made it better.Of course,they would still lost.

I would start with Hungary.
In OTL they made 285 Turan 1,139 Turan 2 and 2 Turan 3 medium tanks.Except last model,useless.
Let assume ,that they wonted Turan 3 from the start and Italy and maybe Romania joined effort.Hungary get Turan 3 and tank destroyers/like Su76/ in 1942,and their army in 1943 retreat in good order instead of being routed.
The same goes for most romanian units.6 army thanks to Hitler linacy is still lost,but both hungarians and romanians keep their armies on front,and becouse they add soviet volunteers,50% of soldiers are soviets there.

Soviet advance slover in 1943,and Dniepr line is hold till early 1944.Romania is attacked in late 44,and change sides in early 45.
Hungary with new tanks/VK 30.01/D/ and tank destroyers /Mersala/ hold long enough to capitulate to british in late 1945.
Althought they still lost most of Transylwania.

Italy nexy.

 

[Buba]

Medium - Pz.IV
Tank destroyer - either Pz.38t or Pz.II - with the centre-mounted engine, i.e.
Marder III Ausf. M, Sd.Kfz. 138 if the Pz.38(t) used
or the Wespe chassis if the Pz.II used
In both cases - 75mm mle97 or equivalent as gun. Of which the Germans have +4K to give away. Good enough until late '42, then can be upgunned with something longer and with higher MV, i.e. the PAK 7,5cm.
All these designs are primitive, but this is what the local industry can handle.
Forget anything "fancy" like welding, torsion bars, mass production, large cast/rolled elements etc.
Must be leaf springs and riveted.

 

[ATP]

Medium - Pz.IV
Tank destroyer - either Pz.38t or Pz.II - with the centre-mounted engine, i.e.
Marder III Ausf. M, Sd.Kfz. 138
or the Wespe chassis.
In both cases - 75mm mle97 or equivalent as gun. Good enough until late '42, then can be upgunned with something longer and with higher MV.
Both are primitive, but this is what the local industry can handle.
Forget anything "fancy" like welding, torsion bars, mass production, large cast/rolled elements etc.
Must be leaf springs and riveted.

Hungary wonted Pz 4,but was rejected,that why they take Skoda design.Which could be turned into Turan 3 from the start,and using 75/97 is excellent idea.
They buy license for swedish light tank and produced it,now they could produce tank destroyers on its chasis from the start.
And - instead of replacing Turan 3 with VK.30.01,they should rather build Skoda T.25 with autoloader.

Still thinking about Italy.

 

[Buba]

Hungary wonted Pz 4,but was rejected

Germany refused to supply complete tanks or the license?

 

[ATP]

Germany refused to supply complete tanks or the license?

Both.And not only them - Sweden refused license of medium tank LAGO,too.So hungarian must stick to czech design.
Which would be not bad thing,if they wanted tank with 75/97 gun from the start.
And if Italy joined project,it would be made faster.
Hungarian armored dyvision with Turan 3 during soviet counter-offensive would save hungarian army.

Especially,if all infrantry dyvisions have Su-76 like tank destroyers.Romanian could do that,too/tank destroyers/
From 1943 - Maresal tank destroyers for both.

 

[ATP]

Italy.They fucked their tank production only becouse FIAT and Ansaldo had monopoly for tanks,but was unable to made real medium tanks.
But - let assume that Mussolini said ,that he want medium tanks and tanks destroyers now,and joined hungarian in developing czech models.
Italy would have Marder 2 like in 1941,and Turan 3 in 1942.T.25 and Maresal in 1943.

How would that change history ? Rommel could take Alexandria in 1942,and maybe rest of Egypt - but that would be all.
Allies would still attack Tunesia and reclaim Egypt.Only difference - Italy would hold in Africa till the end of 1943.

Combined with Italian forces on East not being routed,and Hitler do not stopping Citadel/no Sicyly landing/ soviets would lost at Kursk.

But sicyly would still be taken in early 1944,and after landing in Italy they would switch sizes - let say,in 44 summer.With better army and T.25 tanks,Italy actually manage to hold germans long enough for Allies to come and take almost all Italy till 1944 end.

In the same time,germans would still hold Bug river line and Romanian repel soviets.

In 1945 italian still produce T.25 for their army,and help liberate Slovenia,most of Yugoslavia,and most Hungary when they change sides,too.

All in all - war in Europe would last few month longer,and most of Hungary,Yugoslavia and part of Czech would remain free.
Romania ,Bulgary and Poland would sadly still become soviet puppets.

All becouse of better tanks for german allies.

 

[Zachowon]

Japan focused on mobility and gun over armor.
Italy focused on speed more then anything.
Hungry...well they just used the others tanks for the most part

 

[ATP]

Japan focused on mobility and gun over armor.
Italy focused on speed more then anything.
Hungry...well they just used the others tanks for the most part

And that could still do that - use czech designs with longer gun,they were mobile and have rather weak armour.But would be enough to face T.34 on East and M4 on Pacyfic.

Now - Japan.

First road - build tank destroyer on light tank chasis,and Abadonn Type 97 and start developing Type 3 from 1938.
That way,they could have Type 3 from 1941,Type 3 with Type 4 turret from 1943,and Type 4 from 1944.Maybe Type 5 in 1945.
What more important - tank destroyers with 75mm guns from 1941.

No more easily massacred japaneese troops,american medium tanks stop becoming unstoppable juggernauts there.M3 no longer could kill easily in Birma.
less progress on both fronts,and soviet attack is at least partially stopped.

But - it not stop A bombs,so Japan capitulate on schedule.But soviets never take even small part of Korea,so Korea would be free and united.Aside from that,no changes.Except more american killed.

 

[ATP]

Influence on germans and East front.

Germans was arrogant,but not stupid.If romanian,Hungarian and Italy had their equivalent of Marder 2 in 1941,they would do the same.
When they get Turan 3 with long 75mm gun in early 1942,they would built Pz4 with that,too.
Maresal was inspiration for Hetzer ,with it build from 1943 Hetzer would be built in 1943,too.
T.25 from 1943 for german allies - Skoda would produce it for germans,too.

But more important is influence of 4 more fighting armies on East.Stalingrad would fall thanks to Hitler idiocy,but Kursk would be german victory with more german infrantry and not stopping operation/becouse Italy would still hold in Africa/

soviets would take Dniepr river in summer 44,and attack Romania in autumn.And the same time Italy change sides,and thanks to modernized army hold germans long enough to let Allies go and take all Italy till 1944 end.
Romanian fortyfications are breaked during 1945 winter and they change sides,but Hungary hold.Allies take Slovenia and Croatia,soviets Bulgary during 1945 spring,they also go to Wisla river destroing german Army Group center in process.
During 1945 summer Hungary change sides,most is liberated by Allies.

War end when Berlin get A bomb in autumn,soviets get all Poland,half Czech,and East germany.

 

[Aldarion]

Personally, I think they should have put more emphasis on the Marder series - and not just for Germany but for its allies as well.

 

[ATP]

Personally, I think they should have put more emphasis on the Marder series - and not just for Germany but for its allies as well.

You are right,i think.Since they could not win,loosing slower was only option,and tank destroyers was perfect solution for that.

Maresal would be even better,romanian planned to build 120/montch with their poor economy.
Considering,that Italy in 1943 could made 130 Pz4/montsh if they buy license/they did not/, they could made 300-400 Maresals instead.

P.S italy could build Pz3 from 1942 or Pz4/Panther/Skoda from 1943 - but they choosed wait for tank from FIAT instead.and get 50 or so P.40.It is one of facts which look like joke.