General military questions thread

[Buba]

cool looking is important for tanks!

Yes, Real Men get aroused when looking at Attractively Shaped Tanks!

PZL P.320F Scorpion would be much better

Actually it were dreams about the PZL I-22 Iryda which made Poland turn down the Su-25 license. I'd prefer a hijacked licensed Su-25 to napkinwaffe projects ...

would Poland get those customers? Considering the record with selling the ex-Soviet tech it was making, wouldn't bet my money on it.

True - Poland managed to fuck up contracts involving T-72 based vehicles.

 

[ATP]

But would Poland get those customers? Considering the record with selling the ex-Soviet tech it was making, wouldn't bet my money on it. Georgia's sale records don't seem to be great either. As usual, good fucking luck competing with China in this kind of stuff, especially with all the other crap China is willing to throw into these deals.

Sweden is a good example of complexity and economies of scale cutting the number of tank manufacturers that can keep up with the tech and market at the same time. In the end, despite having own industry that was keeping up for a time and not being in NATO, in the end they shut that down and went with Leo 2.

First - it was PZL.P 230F Scorpion,not P.320.sorry.
Second - we still need at least 100 of them for our air forces.And,from 1990 others would buy this,too.
Third - That is why we could take over their almost made tank and produce it.

 

[Marduk]

First - it was PZL.P 230F Scorpion,not P.320.sorry.
Second - we still need at least 100 of them for our air forces.And,from 1990 others would buy this,too.

Not need. Even "want" is questionable. Remember, we need an air force for fighting Russia, not Libya or Syria. They would be great for fighting Libya or Syria. For Russia, we want something like F-35 though. Anything less will be stuck flying very close to the ground and very carefully, like Ukraine's aircraft.

Third - That is why we could take over their almost made tank and produce it.

We couldn't, it would be a completely different tank, made of completely different parts. Their designs are based around Swedish parts after all.

 

[ATP]

Not need. Even "want" is questionable. Remember, we need an air force for fighting Russia, not Libya or Syria. They would be great for fighting Libya or Syria. For Russia, we want something like F-35 though. Anything less will be stuck flying very close to the ground and very carefully, like Ukraine's aircraft.

We couldn't, it would be a completely different tank, made of completely different parts. Their designs are based around Swedish parts after all.

1.Ukrainians are still using Su25.
2.Then,we buy machines to made swedish parts.It still would be worth it.

 

[Marduk]

1.Ukrainians are still using Su25.

And just like us with Su-22, it's because what they have, not because that's what they want to be using. Look how are they using them.

2.Then,we buy machines to made swedish parts.It still would be worth it.

Will they sell? For what price? Would it get us a working tank? Again, there probably are reasons why they want with Leo 2.

 

[ATP]

And just like us with Su-22, it's because what they have, not because that's what they want to be using. Look how are they using them.

Will they sell? For what price? Would it get us a working tank? Again, there probably are reasons why they want with Leo 2.

1.Then remade it into big drones later.Doable,too.
2.If we propose to made program of their tank with them - yes.They prefered to made tanks on their own as long as it was possible.
With Poland joining it,they could afford their own tank.
If we buy their older JA37 fighters and later J.39,they would have reasons to stick to Poland.

 

[Marduk]

1.Then remade it into big drones later.Doable,too.

And that in turn would also be "it's what they have, not what they want to use", as these would be rather expensive and overly large drones. Something like 75% of "drone magic" effect people see now is that many drones are practically semi-stealth aircraft out of their unusually small size and speed (in comparison to the average tac jet), messing with some less capable and less professionally operated air defense systems with this alone.

2.If we propose to made program of their tank with them - yes.They prefered to made tanks on their own as long as it was possible.
With Poland joining it,they could afford their own tank.
If we buy their older JA37 fighters and later J.39,they would have reasons to stick to Poland.

And why would we limit ourselves like that to not exactly the greatest supplier?
JA37 was obsolete in 1990 when its production ended, it would be stupid to buy it afterwards, worse than the old Mig-29's we have.
As for Grippen, we couldn't afford a main fighter with no NATO supplier and less than 300 in operation - we would have no idea if, when and what upgrades and spare parts will be available, and if we could get more during a war. As opposed to F-16, the most common of NATO fighters, built in thousands, with hundreds of whole spare fighters standing in American desert.

 

[ATP]

And that in turn would also be "it's what they have, not what they want to use", as these would be rather expensive and overly large drones. Something like 75% of "drone magic" effect people see now is that many drones are practically semi-stealth aircraft out of their unusually small size and speed (in comparison to the average tac jet), messing with some less capable and less professionally operated air defense systems with this alone.

And why would we limit ourselves like that to not exactly the greatest supplier?
JA37 was obsolete in 1990 when its production ended, it would be stupid to buy it afterwards, worse than the old Mig-29's we have.
As for Grippen, we couldn't afford a main fighter with no NATO supplier and less than 300 in operation - we would have no idea if, when and what upgrades and spare parts will be available, and if we could get more during a war. As opposed to F-16, the most common of NATO fighters, built in thousands, with hundreds of whole spare fighters standing in American desert.

1.Ukrainians are building big drones just now.Modified hull of P.230 would do.
2.Becouse Sweden would not cut us if some idiot in USA decide so.Problem with USA - they could do that for most stupid reasons.

 

[Marduk]

1.Ukrainians are building big drones just now.Modified hull of P.230 would do.

Again, war improvisation, not an effecient, long term product. We could and should make own drones, properly (and we have some successes there). We could also make cruise missiles, but we could probably buy better *and* cheaper commercial engines for them than we could possibly build, while the interest is low because USA will sell us ATACMS, JASSM and other toys like that, but not to Ukraine so far. We don't need second rate cruise missiles with the price tag of a second rate plane, only the richest could afford that.

Also reminder that Ukraine has more of a domestic aerospace industry, including the whole Antonov company and Motor Sich, Poland didn't have anything like it to begin with.

2.Becouse Sweden would not cut us if some idiot in USA decide so.Problem with USA - they could do that for most stupid reasons.

I'm pretty sure Sweden can be more easily pressured by Russia than USA. Stupid reasons? Come on, it's Sweden. It's an even bigger problem there.
If we are talking planes, USA, UK and South Korea are all safer options than that.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Sweden has similar attitude towards weapons exports as Switzerland, so they will sell you weapons, but with many caveats and will cut you off if weapons actually get used. Not to mention, as you mentioned, that they are very susceptible to the pressure from the big powers, but then who isn't.

 

[Buba]

Swedish jets come with US engines. That says all about "freeing oneself from Great Power pressure" ...

 

[ATP]

Swedish jets come with US engines. That says all about "freeing oneself from Great Power pressure" ...

Fuck,i forget about that.So no matter what we choose,USA could cut at least parts for our planes.
Well,unless we choose China planes - but i would not like to be dependent on them.
USA,even with Biden and deep state,is still lesser evil.

 

[bintananth]

Swedish jets come with US engines. That says all about "freeing oneself from Great Power pressure" ...

The Swedes bought copies of the blueprints. Volvo makes the jet engines their air force uses.

 

[Buba]

no matter what we choose,USA could cut at least parts for our planes.

Exactly.
At some point any jet plane has some important elements sourced (or licensed with caveats) from USA, Russia or China.
AFAIK Rafale offers a quite high rate of independence from USA etc.

 

[Marduk]

Exactly.
At some point any jet plane has some important elements sourced (or licensed with caveats) from USA, Russia or China.
AFAIK Rafale offers a quite high rate of independence from USA etc.

But you get dependence on France instead. Which in case of Russia problems can be even worse.

 

[Buba]

But you get dependence on France instead. Which in case of Russia problems can be even worse.

"No matter how you turn, ass always behind" - Ancient Polish wisdom.
Like I said - no matter which Fast Jet you buy, you end up being to some degree dependent upon some Sinister Outside Power.

 

[Marduk]

"No matter how you turn, ass always behind" - Ancient Polish wisdom.
Like I said - no matter which Fast Jet you buy, you end up being to some degree dependent upon some Sinister Outside Power.

True, the trick is to pick one who doesn't give a damn about Russia being butthurt, or better yet, will give you bonuses for that.

 

[Buba]

True, the trick is to pick one who doesn't give a damn about Russia being butthurt, or better yet, will give you bonuses for that.

Amen.
BTW - what are you doing out of bed, eh? My excuse is that I'm old and got up to pee/changes in weather give me insomnia. What's yours?

 

[Marduk]

Amen.
BTW - what are you doing out of bed, eh? My excuse is that I'm old and got up to pee/changes in weather give me insomnia. What's yours?

Advanced night owl.

 

[bintananth]

True, the trick is to pick one who doesn't give a damn about Russia being butthurt, or better yet, will give you bonuses for that.

Most countries can't do what the US did during WWII before Pearl Harbor:

Britain: "We need more destroyers"
The US: "We can give you 50"
Britain: "Thank you"
The US: "You're welcome"