DC Fixing Wonder Woman

AndrewJTalon

Well-known member
Founder
I've always had issues with Wonder Woman, and one of the biggest? A lack of cohesion to her world and villains. I mean, she's been all over the damn place (Who could forget that whole "kung fu detective" thing with her? I've sure as hell tried to). Especially compared to Batman and Superman. I've always felt that, if you are making her the third part of the Trinity, she needs consistency in her rogues and in her general focus. Something to call her own that lets her stand out, not just because of her gender but because of who she is as a character. So, here is my proposal, a general fix and focus for Diana of Themiscyra.

But to do that, it helps to understand how it would contrast with Batman and Superman.

Superman is the Man of Tomorrow, the Future. The majority of his foes are science fiction and space focused, beyond the realms of possibility with science and science so advanced it seems like magic. It is about the fears and possibilities and hopes of tomorrow: That's Superman.

Batman is very much of the Present: Apathy, corruption, and madness. The darkness of men's souls that we can't fully explain. The fears of today. Fears of madness in the form of a killer clown, fear of death and worse things beyond that in the form of Ra's al Ghul, even the fear of fear itself in the form of Scarecrow. And many others: All of his classic foes can be defined in terms of the fear they represent. And Batman fights against this while dealing with his own inner demons. That's Batman.

So let us make Diana of Themiscyra, the Wonder Woman, the Past. Her foes are from, inspired by, or driven by, ancient powers, relics, and entities from a more mystical, feral past. She represents the past ideals of heroes trying to adjust to the present, and with her entry into the Modern World there is an emergence of magic and sorcery from the past. Mythical beings trying to deal with living in the present. Think the tone of Disney's Gargoyles and other urban fantasy settings. That would be Wonder Woman.

She not only has to navigate between her nation and the world, she must also navigate between the magic and mortal worlds, the past and the present, to build a better future. In this way, we can make not only her story but the stories of her foes fit together into this paradigm. And trust me, there are a LOT of crazy foes that can, with a little thought, work properly in this framework.

Cheetah, Circe, The Queen of Fables, and Ares are all good examples of this that would fit into this paradigm, but we can go further. Here are a few ideas of mine, one original villain idea and a few twists on "classics":


-Anansi: He appears to just be a human crime boss, but in fact is the legendary trickster spider himself who wants more humans in his web to gain more power. He enjoys the trappings of the wealthy mortals. He would represent the worst kind of immortal: One who just sees mortals as toys or prey. The spider in his web. Totally self absorbed, the kind of Immortal Diana would hate. Who can present a street level or upper tier threat. As a bridge between the magic and mortal worlds.

I have a mental image of him being accused by one of his rebelling human lackeys of being like "a goddamned spider in his web." Anansi just laughs, turns around, and reveals his spidery form to terrify the lackey, and says:

"A goddamned spider? I am THE GODDAMNED SPIDER!"

He'd be based on Anansi from American Gods, but far less morally ambiguous. Or maybe he is. You just can't tell with him.

-Blue Snowman: Yes, a goddamned snowman. Who is a woman. This chick. Rather than her being the crossdressing poor man's Iron-Man, have her be an amnesiac Skadi, a Norse Jotun who was associate with winter. Have her seek to bring about another end of the gods, like Ragnarok, but in this case she feels that the modern superheroes are the gods that need to be destroyed by another Fimbulwinter. Or perhaps she has been sealed away and now is the last of the Norse deities, and has no direction in life save for violence and battle.

-Egg Fu

This dude... This is... Wow.


Yeah, wow. Just... Wow... But all is not lost! There is a way to take the... Egg of this idea and hatch it into something worthwhile!

... Sorry. The bad yolks just keep coming.

According to the Taoist creation myth, the universe began as an egg. It was hatched by a primeval giant called Pan Gu, or sometimes spelled P'an-Ku. The egg split into two pieces, the Earth and the Sky, and Pan Gu eventually died and his body became the lands of the Earth. The modern day Pan Gu (mistakenly called "Egg Fu" thanks to a botched translation) was once a Chinese archaeologist who was imprisoned by the Communist state. He managed to get his hands on a jade egg from an ancient Chinese tomb, which he broke. He was then possessed by a spirit claiming to be one of Shen Yu, the first Chinese Emperor's, wizards. This wizard granted the man incredible magical abilities, but required that he feed on the spirits of the living to survive. Ultimately, the man took the title of Pan Gu, and seeks to overthrow China, re-establish the imperial system, and become the Emperor with his powers. He would be based on a lot of wushu films, and Big Trouble in Little China, among other sources. Diana could team up with a Hong Kong detective/demon hunter to take him down. Just to keep the egg off their faces.

... Sorry. Not sorry.

-Paperman: This guy, made of actual paper. How embarrassing. So instead, let's take this further. The Paperman is transformed by the Tablet of Thoth, the Egyptian God of Writing and Scribes, into a paper being. But it's not just that he's paper-He is written words. Eventually he would gain the power to access anything written, typed or inscribed. To flow through information-Such as on the Internet. Into secret archives and files. Now he is a major threat, and a magical one at that.

In addition to all of this, Diana would have her foibles. She's still learning new things about the Mortal World/Man's World. But her focus as a leader and diplomat between mortal and magic would open up a lot more story possibilities and her own unique take on things. And she wouldn't just deal with magic, she could deal with mundane crime too. But still having the past perspective, one perhaps more brutal than today's. She lives by the Aristotelian ideal of balance being the true virtue. For instance, if you are too generous you become poor. But if you're too restrained with your money, you are consumed by greed. She seeks balance as she moves through the world, which sometimes requires her to move, and sometimes requires the world to move. Many of her foes could simply be a virtue taken so far it has become vice, to reflect her own struggles with that balance.

In private, she is still a princess, but she is still the tomboy who enjoys a fight or to play with monsters (with her strength and abilities, many monsters are just like overly affectionate dogs). She used to play fetch with Cerberus. She is friends with Athena and Artemis, and has gifts from all of the Greek Gods.

And she often has a host of mythical beings dropping by her embassy home to crash on her couch. Most often other Greek pantheon entities because hey, they are technically family. But because Diana in public has to be the nicest one of the Trinity, she gets the most couchcrashers.

And finally, while she is a warrior, she fights for peace and justice. And if you turn your enemy into your friend, you have still won the battle. So she would try many methods, including her Lasso of Truth, to force the villains to see the truth of themselves. And to start to seek redemption. She would think that defeating someone allows you the means to become their friend, that they just need to listen to you after you've stopped them. And sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. But she keeps trying because she genuinely wants to redeem her enemies.

These are just my musings on Wonder Woman and how to give her an identity beyond "the feminist icon". She can still be that, but also stand on her own as a true heroine with her own identity. What are your thoughts?
 
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BF110C4

Well-known member
Magic should also be an active part of her, not only an excuse for her powers. She is from a culture that witnessed the Gods walking on Earth and imposing their will, for her names like Medea, Agamede and Thrace were people that her mother probably encountered during her life before retreating from the men's world. If you introduce her to magicians and mystical monsters she should know some rituals lost to time and the lack of connection to the modern world to the Gods. Stuff that can get even someone like Constantine on the backfoot.

Also on the path of redemption I think that she should be influence by her knowledge of how it was gained in the ancient times. Back then redemption wasn't something that you worked with the person, but instead it was a very perilious journey in which the former villains (as well as heroes) had to perform multiple task, very dangerous ones at that. So I think that her preferred method to reform a criminal will be to take them under her wing and put them to work towards their freedom. If she catches a weapons dealer that she thinks can be reformed then she is going to take him to the middle of the civil war he armed and force him to help those caught in the crossfire until the matter is settled or the guy gets a sincere change of heart (which is easy to prove thanks to her lasso.
 
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BF110C4

Well-known member
<deleted content>
I think that in her current comic and cartoon form she is first Wonder Woman the heroine of a modern era (with the values of the modern world), then Diana of Themyscira, the amazonian heroine who is still adapting to the values of the men's world, then Princess Diana heir to the throne, and finally Diana Prince, her alias.

I wish that the story would focus on her transformation from Diana of Themyscira to Wonder Woman, which should be a much harder road that comics usually show.
 

Emperor Tippy

Merchant of Death
Super Moderator
Staff Member
Founder
One interesting conflict would have Diana be what she is, a greek Hero. Have her kill and be unapologetic about it.

She has the Lasso of Truth, when she captures someone (be they a petty thief or the strongest of supervillains) she thinks nothing of interrogating them without any regard for privacy or due process and can get honest answers to questions like "What motivated you to commit this crime?" and "If I let you live are you likely, in your own judgement, to reform or commit further crimes?"

And if she doesn't like the answers, she will just kill them without hesitation or qualm. She is the champion of gods who consider it the height of mercy to merely kill being who annoy them.

While I like the idea of focusing her more on mythical enemies and magic, I would also play up the stark contrast between ancient moral values (especially the value of life) and modern western conceptions of the same. And have the very idea of apologizing for her actions be utterly anathema to Diana; she is literally a divinely created being, empowered by a pantheon of gods and charged with being the champion of them and the Amazons. She is not just the crown princess of an absolute monarchy; she is literally the gods anointed and with a faith that would make a fanatic blush (after all she has personally conversed with her gods).

That all could cause a great deal of internal conflict with the rest of the league. On the one hand, she is one of the most powerful entities on the entire planet and can call on literally divine backing and a divine mandate to protect humanity and the Earth. Someone that the League absolutely can't afford to be on the wrong side of. On the other hand, she has some deep and fundamental disagreements with Batman and Superman as she sees the world and their mission through a fundamentally different lens and from fundamentally different starting precepts.

Honestly, one of my biggest issues with the Justice League is how everyone (regardless of backstory) is essentially a modern american liberal when it comes to their moral and ethical sensibilities. They would have been far better off having the League be an organization of very different entities who are united in a common goal but with very different methodologies when it comes to reaching that goal.
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
Honestly, one of my biggest issues with the Justice League is how everyone (regardless of backstory) is essentially a modern american liberal when it comes to their moral and ethical sensibilities. They would have been far better off having the League be an organization of very different entities who are united in a common goal but with very different methodologies when it comes to reaching that goal.

You know, this reminds me of some guy on youtube, maybe The Fourth Age says about how modern superheroes are about “Sociological” Justice

Simply put, your motivations can maybe lessen the degree of your punishment

And you can get out of jail and be accepted if you actually “learned your lesson” instead of that and spending your entire prison term because people still suffered because of you
 

BF110C4

Well-known member
You know, this reminds me of some guy on youtube, maybe The Fourth Age says about how modern superheroes are about “Sociological” Justice

Simply put, your motivations can maybe lessen the degree of your punishment

And you can get out of jail and be accepted if you actually “learned your lesson” instead of that and spending your entire prison term because people still suffered because of you.
Reminds me of Psycho-Pass in which the goverment got access to scanners capable of determining a person's potential to commit a crime and assign a numerical value to it, at a numerical value of a hundred you can be stunned and forced to go to a rehab center for therapy, which last as long as necessary to reduce your number to an acceptable level (including for life). At three hundred you can be executed on the spot, even if you are a victim that was tortured to the point of lashing in blind desperation at anyone.

After all how does the judges can determine if you actually reformed or you are showing only what they want to see? How many times we get to see the comics, cartoon and anime criminals showing remorse just to go back at it the next issue? After seeing the Joker kill a dozen persons for a perfect joke how many cops have been tempted to have an 'accident' while in transit to the court house?

Or in this case at which point Wonder Woman points out that a criminal like the Joker who kills at random and its completely indiferent to punishment deserves that the next time that fights back during his arrest to be treated with lethal force instead of holding back, a standard seen as reasonable by actual cops and military (and more than one member of the League has served as either).
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
Honestly, one of my biggest issues with the Justice League is how everyone (regardless of backstory) is essentially a modern american liberal when it comes to their moral and ethical sensibilities. They would have been far better off having the League be an organization of very different entities who are united in a common goal but with very different methodologies when it comes to reaching that goal.
Diana is also a pagan, and modern liberals are so used to living in a culture founded on Christianity that they have a hard time understanding just how much different the moral values of a pagan religion can be.

She is also from an island full of immortal women who's last interaction with men was likely in the bronze age and have some grudges against men for how women were treated back then (not that men were ever treated much better).
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
Diana is also a pagan, and modern liberals are so used to living in a culture founded on Christianity that they have a hard time understanding just how much different the moral values of a pagan religion can be.

She is also from an island full of immortal women who's last interaction with men was likely in the bronze age and have some grudges against men for how women were treated back then (not that men were ever treated much better).

Not exactly very very very very versed in the entire DCU but I presume that they had people going out of the island a few times

Also, bronze age? I think they were using iron back then, or that’s just due to too many fictional depictions making it so that they look like they’re using iron weapons
 

BF110C4

Well-known member
She is also from an island full of immortal women who's last interaction with men was likely in the bronze age and have some grudges against men for how women were treated back then (not that men were ever treated much better).
To be fair most of the bias Diana has against men is mostly academic, never having seen one or being on the wrong side of machism she is often blindsided by the modern values in which a woman is frequently given preferencial treatment at the cost of being sidelined in various occupations, so while she is not going to be surprised by a pimp hitting a woman in the street she is going to take a while to understand why people are offering jobs in which she literally needs to only stay quiet and look pretty, often while virtually naked, at least until someone gets grabby and she starts breaking fingers.
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
she is going to take a while to understand why people are offering jobs in which she literally needs to only stay quiet and look pretty, often while virtually naked, at least until someone gets grabby and she starts breaking fingers.
No, I'm sure people use sex to sell stuff in the ancient world too. Though back then it was largely limited to appealing to nobles and royalty.

What she will have trouble with is finding the balance between the naive hope she has to prove her elders wrong and the extremes that sent her elders into exile.
 

BF110C4

Well-known member
No, I'm sure people use sex to sell stuff in the ancient world too. Though back then it was largely limited to appealing to nobles and royalty.

What she will have trouble with is finding the balance between the naive hope she has to prove her elders wrong and the extremes that sent her elders into exile.
Yeah, but remember, she didn't live in ancient Greece, she lived her entire life as an amazon princess in a magic island isolated from the rest of the world, and using sex appeal for selling stuff is not nearly as effective when the entire population is composed of female supermodels who often dress lightly and bath in rivers.
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
Yeah, but remember, she didn't live in ancient Greece, she lived her entire life as an amazon princess in a magic island isolated from the rest of the world, and using sex appeal for selling stuff is not nearly as effective when the entire population is composed of female supermodels who often dress lightly and bath in rivers.
Counterpoint: lingerie ads.
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
You know, kinda off-topic but I remember reading a Smallville Comic wherein it looks like Amazons have kids who grow up, not just Diana, no mention of fathers

Hippolyta acted as Steve Carter’s foster parent of a sort when she brought him back to Man’s World

Also, remember some New52 covers with Wonder Woman dual wielding guns and now also remembering some Thor comics where Asgardians are using motherfucking machineguns against the forces of Hel and Marvel’s Ares using a LOT of modern weaponry alongside more ancient stuff

It’d be kinda interesting to see Amazons pick up guns and use em whilst wearing their ancient greece clothes
 

BF110C4

Well-known member
You know, kinda off-topic but I remember reading a Smallville Comic wherein it looks like Amazons have kids who grow up, not just Diana, no mention of fathers

Hippolyta acted as Steve Carter’s foster parent of a sort when she brought him back to Man’s World

Also, remember some New52 covers with Wonder Woman dual wielding guns and now also remembering some Thor comics where Asgardians are using motherfucking machineguns against the forces of Hel and Marvel’s Ares using a LOT of modern weaponry alongside more ancient stuff

It’d be kinda interesting to see Amazons pick up guns and use em whilst wearing their ancient greece clothes
At a personal level every amazon is stronger and with faster reflexes than any human so they can squeeze every ounze of performance out of a large caliber automatic rifle so I can see them using battle rifles and LMG with an attached bayonet as their standard long arm, with .45 semiauto being the smallest pistol they would see as reasonable.

Biggest problem with guns is that to rely on them you need a steady supply of ammunition and spare parts, which is kinda hard to get for an isolated community with limited contact with the world and whose economy still depends on, admittedly some of the greatests and extremely experienced, artisans. Add to that the fact that they can shoot an arrow with far more force than a battle rifle and their shields and other forged assesories are between bullet resistant and impervious to projectile weapons I cannot see more than a couple of them taking modern arms.

That said those that do are going to have a blast adapting their tactics and skills to the use of weaponry, if only to understand their potential enemies better and if for some reason they do adopt those to their doctrine then is probable we get to see a variation of the phalanx that uses FN FAL rifles instead of pikes which a modern sodier would laugh at until they discover than amazonian shield walls can resist autocannon fire and are faster (and hit harder) than an army truck. For their support weapons I can see the use of hand grenades as part of their indirect fire doctrine (they can throw them farther and with more accuracy than a launcher), with horse drawn mortars for longer distance. For antitank work I can see them using molotovs, AT mines and large caliber rifles to prepare ambushes instead of relying in antitank missiles because they would value accuracy and martial skill over firepower.
 

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