Finnish Military news megathread.

[PsihoKekec]

Modern jet fighters (Gripen, along with it's predecessors Viggen and Draken included ) operating from roads is a myth. In reality those were specially prepared sections of highways built to airstrip standards, along with all the needed infrastructure, like dispersal areas, refueling pipelines... Maintaining all this infrastructure costs money though, so most countries with this kind of airstrips did away with them as Cold War ended, thus operating from roads capability is PR bullshit, because there are almost no roads that can be operated from, Sweden for example only kept one such road airstrip, so they can run a PR exercise every few years. Not to mention that when operating from these airstrips, there is not much difference between aircraft adapted to operation from roads and those that aren't.

 

[Tyzuris]

Modern jet fighters (Gripen, along with it's predecessors Viggen and Draken included ) operating from roads is a myth. In reality those were specially prepared sections of highways built to airstrip standards, along with all the needed infrastructure, like dispersal areas, refueling pipelines... Maintaining all this infrastructure costs money though, so most countries with this kind of airstrips did away with them as Cold War ended, thus operating from roads capability is PR bullshit, because there are almost no roads that can be operated from, Sweden for example only kept one such road airstrip, so they can run a PR exercise every few years. Not to mention that when operating from these airstrips, there is not much difference between aircraft adapted to operation from roads and those that aren't.

Finland maintains 18 known potential roadside base locations. These are lengthened and widened patches of straight road that continues for 2-4 kilometers. In war, the FAF would disperse its aircraft to four fighter jets per roadside base and call the conscripts who served in the Air Force to service to secure the base, act as assistant mechanics, act in logistics of base such as food, medical services, etc... of the base and then the regular service personnel such as more educated mechanics and pilots would work in cooperation with reservists.

This is also exercised every year by the Air Force when they set up a roadside base and do flight operations from there and call up reservists for exercise to keep their skills sharp.

All fighter aircraft in HX competition are capable of lifting off from these roadside bases.

 

[Tyzuris]

Hävittäjähankinta yritetään sulloa 10 miljardiin – puolustusministeriön Puranen: Emme pyydä lisää rahaa

Kahdella ensimmäisellä tarjouskierroksella kaikkien ehdokkaiden tarjoukset ylittivät 10 miljardia euron ylärajan.

yle.fi

So translate this briefly for the thread:

Not a single one of the tenders were able to fit 64 aircraft into 10 billion euro limits and the offers were over the 10 billion euros by one to two billion euros.

But the problem for HX is that they initially gave the politicians the estimate of 7-10 billion euros for the entire 64 aircraft purchase. And now the politicians have green lighted 10 billion euros which will be funded via taking loans so that it doesn't even get taken from the yearly defense budgets from which other defense functions during this decade will be funded. So politicians have given generous terms for HX project and this means that acquisition of 64 aircraft is unlikely as Strategic Acqusitions director Lauri Puranen says that they won't ask over 10 billion euros. So that means getting as many fighter jets as possible to 10 billion euros. The initial 7-10 billion euro estimate in 2014 was based on ongoing fighter jet deals at that period of time.

Which by offers given earlier (11-12 bn €) would roughly mean an acquisition of 54-58 fighter jets. Puranen reveals the cause for the price being so high for the 64 aircraft to be security of supply. Whenever an adequate number of armaments were added to the deal, the price increased to over 10 billion euros even in the latest round of negotiations.

The government will make the acquisition decision based on the recommendation of the military and defense ministry next year.

 

[gral]

Hävittäjähankinta yritetään sulloa 10 miljardiin – puolustusministeriön Puranen: Emme pyydä lisää rahaa

Kahdella ensimmäisellä tarjouskierroksella kaikkien ehdokkaiden tarjoukset ylittivät 10 miljardia euron ylärajan.

yle.fi

So translate this briefly for the thread:

Not a single one of the tenders were able to fit 64 aircraft into 10 billion euro limits and the offers were over the 10 billion euros by one to two billion euros.

But the problem for HX is that they initially gave the politicians the estimate of 7-10 billion euros for the entire 64 aircraft purchase. And now the politicians have green lighted 10 billion euros which will be funded via taking loans so that it doesn't even get taken from the yearly defense budgets from which other defense functions during this decade will be funded. So politicians have given generous terms for HX project and this means that acquisition of 64 aircraft is unlikely as Strategic Acqusitions director Lauri Puranen says that they won't ask over 10 billion euros. So that means getting as many fighter jets as possible to 10 billion euros. The initial 7-10 billion euro estimate in 2014 was based on ongoing fighter jet deals at that period of time.

Which by offers given earlier (11-12 bn €) would roughly mean an acquisition of 54-58 fighter jets. Puranen reveals the cause for the price being so high for the 64 aircraft to be security of supply. Whenever an adequate number of armaments were added to the deal, the price increased to over 10 billion euros even in the latest round of negotiations.

The government will make the acquisition decision based on the recommendation of the military and defense ministry next year.

That's one of the big problems in knowing unit price for any military aircraft - you never buy just the aircraft, there's always a package deal involved.

 

[Tyzuris]

Forgot to update this.

So basically we sent Requests for Best And Final Offers for our new fighter jets to all five manufacturers at the end of January this year following a final round of negotiations and performance verifications at manufacturers' home countries at the end of 2020 which itself was followed by performance evaluation flights in Finland.

The BAFO:s were received at the end of April. Our target is 64 fighter jets and three manufacturers have revealed the number of aircraft they offer. Boeing first with 64 fighter jets including 50 F/A-18E Super Hornets and 14 EA-18G Growlers, Saab with 64 Gripen E and two Global Eye AWACS planes, Lockheed Martin with 64 F-35A. BAE has declined to reveal the number of Eurofighter Typhoons they offer to Finland. The same with Dassault Aviation and their Rafale offer.

And basically the budget for this entire acquisition is 10 bn. € of which 9.4 bn € is available to manufacturers. The remaining 600 million € will be spent domestically in building bases for the new aircraft, integrating the aircraft to our defense systems such as command systems, istar, etc... and training our maintenance personnel and pilots for the new aircraft.

The BAFO:s have to pass through three gate checks to be evaluated:

1. Security of Supply. They need to involve enough weapons and spares and also a maintenance model for us to be able to operate the aircraft in isolation for prolonged periods of time cut off from supplement transportations.

2. Use and Maintenance costs which are at max. 10 percent of our defense budget as a whole.

3. Have 30% of the value of the entire deal worth of industrial cooperation or 3 billion € worth during a decade's time period while we're also acquiring the new aircraft.

After passing these pass/fail gate checks, the BAFO will be evaluated in wargame simulations where the offered systems are tested in various situations and a prolonged two week wargame will be played out simulating a two-week conflict to see which system performs the best. Then evaluations of its capacity in 2025 when the first planes will be delivered and 2030 when the last planes will arrive will be done along with development potential to the retirement year of the new fighter jet which is 2060. The system that performs the best in this evaluation will be chosen. It'll be then given to the Defense Minister an acquisition suggestion and then the Defense Ministry and Foreign Affairs Ministry will assess the security and foreign policy effects of the acquisition and attach that to the final acquisition suggestion which will be then brought to the government and President of the Republic for final approval in either November or December this year. After which the acquisition contract will be signed early on in the year 2022.

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Also another news is that we're in the process of acquiring new air defense missiles that are capable of reaching high altitude and an acquisition decision on that will be made in early 2023. The manufacturers involved are Diehl Defence (Germany), IAI Israel Aerospace Industries (Israel), Konsberg Defence & Aerospace AS (Norway), MBDA (Great Brittain) and Rafael Advanced Systems (Israel). The budget will probably end up around one billion €.

-----

Also our Army is renewing its personnel transport vehicles by acquiring hundreds of new wheeled APCs and all-terrain-tracked-vehicles for an initial budget of two billion € to get some huge improvements to the mobility and survivability of our best performing troops while the older vehicles will be given to the local defense units.

 

[ATP]

Forgot to update this.

So basically we sent Requests for Best And Final Offers for our new fighter jets to all five manufacturers at the end of January this year following a final round of negotiations and performance verifications at manufacturers' home countries at the end of 2020 which itself was followed by performance evaluation flights in Finland.

The BAFO:s were received at the end of April. Our target is 64 fighter jets and three manufacturers have revealed the number of aircraft they offer. Boeing first with 64 fighter jets including 50 F/A-18E Super Hornets and 14 EA-18G Growlers, Saab with 64 Gripen E and two Global Eye AWACS planes, Lockheed Martin with 64 F-35A. BAE has declined to reveal the number of Eurofighter Typhoons they offer to Finland. The same with Dassault Aviation and their Rafale offer.

And basically the budget for this entire acquisition is 10 bn. € of which 9.4 bn € is available to manufacturers. The remaining 600 million € will be spent domestically in building bases for the new aircraft, integrating the aircraft to our defense systems such as command systems, istar, etc... and training our maintenance personnel and pilots for the new aircraft.

The BAFO:s have to pass through three gate checks to be evaluated:

1. Security of Supply. They need to involve enough weapons and spares and also a maintenance model for us to be able to operate the aircraft in isolation for prolonged periods of time cut off from supplement transportations.

2. Use and Maintenance costs which are at max. 10 percent of our defense budget as a whole.

3. Have 30% of the value of the entire deal worth of industrial cooperation or 3 billion € worth during a decade's time period while we're also acquiring the new aircraft.

After passing these pass/fail gate checks, the BAFO will be evaluated in wargame simulations where the offered systems are tested in various situations and a prolonged two week wargame will be played out simulating a two-week conflict to see which system performs the best. Then evaluations of its capacity in 2025 when the first planes will be delivered and 2030 when the last planes will arrive will be done along with development potential to the retirement year of the new fighter jet which is 2060. The system that performs the best in this evaluation will be chosen. It'll be then given to the Defense Minister an acquisition suggestion and then the Defense Ministry and Foreign Affairs Ministry will assess the security and foreign policy effects of the acquisition and attach that to the final acquisition suggestion which will be then brought to the government and President of the Republic for final approval in either November or December this year. After which the acquisition contract will be signed early on in the year 2022.

-----

Also another news is that we're in the process of acquiring new air defense missiles that are capable of reaching high altitude and an acquisition decision on that will be made in early 2023. The manufacturers involved are Diehl Defence (Germany), IAI Israel Aerospace Industries (Israel), Konsberg Defence & Aerospace AS (Norway), MBDA (Great Brittain) and Rafael Advanced Systems (Israel). The budget will probably end up around one billion €.

-----

Also our Army is renewing its personnel transport vehicles by acquiring hundreds of new wheeled APCs and all-terrain-tracked-vehicles for an initial budget of two billion € to get some huge improvements to the mobility and survivability of our best performing troops while the older vehicles will be given to the local defense units.

And Poland would get only 32 F.35.It seems,that you are smarter then us.

 

[Tyzuris]

And Poland would get only 32 F.35.It seems,that you are smarter then us.

To be fair, you also have 48 F-16s purchased.

------

Also another notable acquisition being done is improving the gear of the infantry soldiers from weapons to sensors which is currently going on.

 

[Tyzuris]

Also here's a video from Finnish Defense Forces about how they visualize modern attack against Finland being like:



It has English subtitles.

 

[Tyzuris]

Lauantaivieras | ”Tämä ei ole ollenkaan kuin jokin autokauppa”, sanoo entinen Draken-lentäjä, josta tehtiin hävittäjäkaupan kilpimies

Suomen hävittäjähankkeen puhemies Lauri Puranen muistuttaa, ettei hävittäjien osto ole mitään autokauppaa.

www.hs.fi

So the gist of this news is that the HX Project evaluations of Best and Final Offers are now in their final stages during these weeks where the results of analyses of security of supply, use - and maintenance costs, industrial cooperation and military capability are being graded, reported and memorandums about the evaluations are made. The fighter jet with the best military capability which also passes the security of supply, use - and maintenance costs and industrial cooperation requirements will be selected by the HX organization to be recommended to the government as the system to purchase. The time when the decision will be brought to the government is roughly a couple of months from now on just before Christmas.

After that we'll be negotiating the terms of acquisition contract with the winner, training people for the new aircraft, making structural chances to our bases and taking the new fighter jets into use between 2025-2030.

---------------------------

I'll have to say it's good to have this whole ordeal which I've as a hobby followed closely be so close to the finish line. For like half a decade I've been anxiously following news about HX project and reading and educating myself about the different solutions offered to us. And it's good to be so close to finding out what we will get. Feels like the last mile and a half of a marathon.

 

[Tyzuris]

Apparently there's been a leak to Iltalehti (according to the newspaper itself) from inside government / military sources that the Defence Forces is recommending the F-35 as our next fighter jet. The acquisition recommendation was left from the Defence Forces to the Ministry of Defence during this weekend and then the Defence Minister would then have to decide about what fighter jet to acquire based on the recommendation and bring it to government for a vote after the government's foreign and security policy committee of ministers and the President had accepted the recommendation from the Defence Minister. And only after the government vote where all ministers vote would there be a publicized news of what we're acquiring (which would happen anytime between next Tuesday and September 21st). But apparently there's been a leak to the press and according to the leak the government officials handling foreign and security policy are also aligning with the F-35 choice.

IL:n tiedot: Puolustusvoimat esittää yhdysvaltalaista F-35:ttä Suomen uudeksi hävittäjäksi

Puolustusvoimat esittää Suomen seuraavaksi hävittäjäksi yhdysvaltalaista F-35-konetta. Asia vahvistetaan Iltalehdelle useista ulko- ja turvallisuuspolitiikan lähteistä.

www.iltalehti.fi

‐----------------

Well this is starting to look good and I hope it's true.

64 F-35 funded separately of the defence budget itself by adding 10 billion euros to the defence budget between the HX payment years of 2021-2031. A much better result than I would have anticipated back in 2016 when HX project kicked off.

----------------

Also Finland increased its amount of purchased K9 self propelled howitzers by exercising an option for 10 more K9's bringing the total to 58 purchased K9 howitzers. There's an option left for 38 more allowing us to get a total of 96 K9's with currently existing contracts.

 

[ATP]

You buy twice as much as Poland.Good for you,shame for us.

 

[paulobrito]

"funded separately of the defence budget itself "
Care to explain how that works?

 

[PsihoKekec]

Usually it means that such large purchases are approved and financed outside of regular coalition budget negotiations.

 

[Tyzuris]

"funded separately of the defence budget itself "
Care to explain how that works?

Basically typical Finnish defence budget has been 3 billion euros.

However with our two largest ongoing acquisitions (the HX Project replacing Hornet at 10 bn. € cost and Squadron 2020 ship project replacing 7 of our warships with four new multi role fregates for 1.3 bn. €) it was viewed that the 3 billion euro defence budget is not enough to develop all three branches in a balanced way. So it was decided that the money for these two acquisitions would come from outside the normal three billion euro defence budget and whatever they would cost, would simply be added to the defence budget. So as a result our defence budget has gone from three billion euros to five billion euros in a couple of years.

 

[Tyzuris]

Finland has chosen 64 F-35 as its new fighter jet today!

Hell fucking yeah!

 

[ATP]

Basically typical Finnish defence budget has been 3 billion euros.

However with our two largest ongoing acquisitions (the HX Project replacing Hornet at 10 bn. € cost and Squadron 2020 ship project replacing 7 of our warships with four new multi role fregates for 1.3 bn. €) it was viewed that the 3 billion euro defence budget is not enough to develop all three branches in a balanced way. So it was decided that the money for these two acquisitions would come from outside the normal three billion euro defence budget and whatever they would cost, would simply be added to the defence budget. So as a result our defence budget has gone from three billion euros to five billion euros in a couple of years.

You are lucky.Our idiots are buing Abrams tanks,instead of more F.35.

 

[bintananth]

You are lucky.Our idiots are buing Abrams tanks,instead of more F.35.

Your country has to be prepared for the Russians and/or NATO saying "hi" in ways Finland doesn't because Poland is basically the doormat between Russia and Germany.

 

[ATP]

Your country has to be prepared for the Russians and/or NATO saying "hi" in ways Finland doesn't because Poland is basically the doormat between Russia and Germany.

And they are allied again.If they invade together,nothing would not save us.So,we need consider only scenario with Putin or Germany limited agression - more F.35 would be more helpfull then.

 

[Tyzuris]

Puolustusministeri Antti Kaikkonen TV1:n Ykkösaamussa: Suomi ostaa ilmatorjunta-aseita Israelista, yhteistyötä Britannian kanssa tiivistetään

Kaikkonen kertoi myös, että Suomella on tiedustelutietoa Valko-Venäjän aiempaa suuremmasta roolista sodassa.

yle.fi

So the new Army high altitude air defense system will be an Israeli one Defense Minister Kaikkonen confirms. Now we are seeking to see which one of the offered systems we will be acquiring. We will know whether IAI Israel Aerospace Industries or Rafael Advanced Systems wins the bid to become the Finnish Army's new high altitude anti-air system early on in the year 2023.

 

[gral]

Puolustusministeri Antti Kaikkonen TV1:n Ykkösaamussa: Suomi ostaa ilmatorjunta-aseita Israelista, yhteistyötä Britannian kanssa tiivistetään

Kaikkonen kertoi myös, että Suomella on tiedustelutietoa Valko-Venäjän aiempaa suuremmasta roolista sodassa.

yle.fi

So the new Army high altitude air defense system will be an Israeli one Defense Minister Kaikkonen confirms. Now we are seeking to see which one of the offered systems we will be acquiring. We will know whether IAI Israel Aerospace Industries or Rafael Advanced Systems wins the bid to become the Finnish Army's new high altitude anti-air system early on in the year 2023.

What are the options being offered?