Finland's and Sweden's NATO accession following thread.

[Marduk]

I want to address this, after cooling off from how pissed I was at this shit continuing to be held up by Turkey/Erdogan.

I didn't say wipe the Turk's out , just shift them to Turkmenistan/partition Turkey if they continue to be intransigent about trying to force anti-Kurd laws (not just anti-PPK, which is what people here have ignored) in other nations in order for them to get into NATO, and I was wrong about how the Turk's ancestors ended up in Asia Minor. However Turk's are still invaders, and there is a reason Vlad Dracule is still a hero in Eastern Europe for his fight against the Ottomans, and WW1/'end of the Ottoman Empire' wasn't that long ago. Not breaking up Turkey/returning the Bosphorus to Greece during the WW1 peace agreements is a massive mistake of the Sickes/Picot maps/Versailles/Woodrow Wilson.

Maybe trying to 'shift them to Turkmenistan' would be unfeasible without a genocide, and maybe a partition would be untenable, however letting Erdogan and his friends play these games with Finland and Sweden has every possibility of undermining NATO in the long term worse than Berlin's cowardice or French duplicity ever could.

Not ever Kurd is a commie, and playing off ignoring their plight with that line just feels like hanging out yet another 'ally' out to dry for political convenience. Particularly after how we screwed them over after the Gulf War, which saw a lot of Kurds and other minor ethnic groups get massacred by Saddam.

As i said before, this is not even an Erdogan problem, this is Turkey problem. Other governments of Turkey would usually take the same position regarding Kurds anyway.
And one good look at a map lets you understand why Turkey as a country is stuck with sticking by a big NO on the question of Kurdish separatism.
I'm not sure if anyone said in public what exactly the hold-up is currently, but the rumors are that it is about extradition of people accused of supporting terrorism, not some random "forcing other countries to have anti-Kurd laws".
From Turkey's perspective, Sweden, a potential NATO country, is the one undermining the security of a current NATO country - Turkey, and Turkey has a legitimate issue with its lack of intent to stop that.

 

[Bacle]

As i said before, this is not even an Erdogan problem, this is Turkey problem. Other governments of Turkey would usually take the same position regarding Kurds anyway.
And one good look at a map lets you understand why Turkey as a country is stuck with sticking by a big NO on the question of Kurdish separatism.
I'm not sure if anyone said in public what exactly the hold-up is currently, but the rumors are that it is about extradition of people accused of supporting terrorism, not some random "forcing other countries to have anti-Kurd laws".
From Turkey's perspective, Sweden, a potential NATO country, is the one undermining the security of a current NATO country - Turkey, and Turkey has a legitimate issue with its lack of intent to stop that.

And Turkey doesn't undermine Greek security with it's antics in the Aegen or on Cypress?

Turkey doesn't get to use the 'undermining security' card for the Kurds when Turkey itself is still actively undermining a fellow NATO member's security on a routine basis.

 

[Marduk]

And Turkey doesn't undermine Greek security with it's antics in the Aegen or on Cypress?

Turkey doesn't get to use the 'undermining security' card for the Kurds when Turkey itself is still actively undermining a fellow NATO member's security on a routine basis.

Turkey could use the same argument regarding Greece. This is overall a messier situation, but it's what you get for having historically hostile countries in the same alliance. NATO is lucky Turkey and Greece joined at the same time, otherwise they would probably veto one another.

 

[Cherico]

Turkey could use the same argument regarding Greece. This is overall a messier situation, but it's what you get for having historically hostile countries in the same alliance. NATO is lucky Turkey and Greece joined at the same time, otherwise they would probably veto one another.

Kind of tells you just how assholish the Russians are that the Greeks and turks historical enemies for hundreds of years looked at each other and said truce at the same time.

 

[Bacle]

Erdogan upset over a Quran burning, so won't support Sweden entering NATO; it is plain Erdogan wants to force other EU/NATO nations to enforce Islamic laws on their own soil as a condition of entering NATO.

How long till someone decides the easiest way to get Sweden and Finland into NATO is to remove Erdogan/Erdogan's power from the equation.

 

[Buba]

Another moral from the story - that Danish politician is either a moron or is working for Moscow.

 

[Batrix2070]

Another moral from the story - that Danish politician is either a moron or is working for Moscow.

Why not both?

 

[Marduk]

Erdogan upset over a Quran burning, so won't support Sweden entering NATO; it is plain Erdogan wants to force other EU/NATO nations to enforce Islamic laws on their own soil as a condition of entering NATO.

How long till someone decides the easiest way to get Sweden and Finland into NATO is to remove Erdogan/Erdogan's power from the equation.

I'd say it's a silly cover for his real gripe - he didn't get what he wanted from USA.

White House, Congress standoff over F-16 sale to Turkey returns to the fore

Sen. Bob Menendez is vowing to block the arms sale to the NATO ally; he’s supported by a bipartisan group of lawmakers, as well as the American Jewish Committee

jewishinsider.com

 

[Buba]

Why not both?

True. Could be a useful idiot with some money thrown his way.

 

[Cherico]

Erdogan upset over a Quran burning, so won't support Sweden entering NATO; it is plain Erdogan wants to force other EU/NATO nations to enforce Islamic laws on their own soil as a condition of entering NATO.

How long till someone decides the easiest way to get Sweden and Finland into NATO is to remove Erdogan/Erdogan's power from the equation.

Turky controls the straits, while getting sweden and Finland closes the baltic sea the fact is we can do that now with the danes and Norway in place. Quite simply put because of geography Turkey is more valuable.

Second get used to Turkey being a major player in the region quite simply put their demographics are stable, they have industry and every one around them is some flavor of fuck up, and their in the middle of the action so they are going to be the important hedgemon of their region.

Don't like it? The time to deal with Turkish power was just after WW1 it is already too late.

 

[Zachowon]

Erdogan upset over a Quran burning, so won't support Sweden entering NATO; it is plain Erdogan wants to force other EU/NATO nations to enforce Islamic laws on their own soil as a condition of entering NATO.

How long till someone decides the easiest way to get Sweden and Finland into NATO is to remove Erdogan/Erdogan's power from the equation.

That is how you basically allow MORE migrants into Europe.

 

[Skallagrim]

Turky controls the straits, while getting sweden and Finland closes the baltic sea the fact is we can do that now with the danes and Norway in place. Quite simply put because of geography Turkey is more valuable.

Second get used to Turkey being a major player in the region quite simply put their demographics are stable, they have industry and every one around them is some flavor of fuck up, and their in the middle of the action so they are going to be the important hedgemon of their region.

Don't like it? The time to deal with Turkish power was just after WW1 it is already too late.

The best time to deal with Turkey was back then, sure. But your analysis (combined with their demonstrable pattern of behaviour) shows precisely why it is still vital that Turkey be dealt with (even at a less-than-ideal juncture, such as now)... and why waiting is a bad idea. The conflict (of interests, and ultimately of arms; one being merely an extension of the other) is inevitable. You have outlined why. Now, when time is to your advantage, you must delay a clash for as long as possible. But when time is to the enemy's advantage, you must force a confrontation as soon as you can-- so as to minimise their advantage, which will only increase with time. Note that this decision will also minimise losses (of all kinds) on your side.

As you correctly state: the Straits have value. The question of its current ownership, however, is merely a problem to be solved. Those who presently pander to the Turks (excepting complete idiots and willing traitors) do it only because the Turks control the Straits, and they're too afraid to force a military conflict over the matter (even though that would resolve it in our favour, because the Turks can't hope to beat us at present).

Anyone sane would prefer the Greeks or some other Western people to have control of that region. If we were to facilitate a change of ownership of the Straits (in the process removing the Turks therefrom), there would no longer be a reason to accomodate the Turks. Everyone in the West (again excepting complete idiots and willing traitors) would be quite satisfied with the outcome. Hell, we could carve out a Kurdistan and reduce Turkey to a powerless Central Anatolian rump state.

So let's make that happen. The interests of the Turks are fundamentally hostile to ours, and pandering to them only gives them more power that they can (and will) ultimately use against us. Better we use our power against them now, than allow them to use their power against us later. The clash is coming anyway, so it should happen on our terms, not theirs.

Every delay is to their advantage... and to our detriment.

So don't delay.

 

[strunkenwhite]

Every delay is to their advantage... and to our detriment. So don't delay.

I'm not convinced that delaying a NATO-Turkey conflict exclusively benefits Turkey. (Or, for that matter, that the straits are the only asset Turkey brings to NATO; though now that the US is extricated from its middle eastern/central Asian misadventures, it may be the only reason Turkey's membership is seen as a net positive.)

NATO is, after all, currently preoccupied with supporting Ukraine against Russia, which would be complicated to say the least by a live war of its own.

Though we may disagree with History Learner's assessments of Western materiel depletion, it is undeniable that certain stockpiles are at or on their way to a low ebb which will be repaired in good time. On this score, perhaps the "best" time to force a confrontation would be a few years after the resolution of the aforementioned conflict, when stockpiles are most likely to be back up to snuff but before all the factories are again decommissioned.

Also, having stable demographics is good but it's not everything. Turkey's finances have been mismanaged pretty badly in the recent past; this may get worse not better. If Turkey is surrounded by fuckups, they might get better instead of worse. Even if you believe Erdogan being overthrown for economic incompetence wouldn't improve the long term clash of interests, it may well result in a short term warming of relations that enables everyone to kick the can down the road indefinitely. Decades from now, Europe may be weakened by its demographic trends but at least it will have adapted to them instead of being in a messy transition. However much Europe is weakened by said transformation, it will still be comfortably ahead of Turkey for any contest in which at least half of Europe has the will for it and the other half has not the will to oppose the other half. (By "Europe" I mean excluding Russia-world, which will be diminished to a similar or greater degree.) Or maybe they'll put aside their differences to face down an ascendant Africa or something.

So ... idiot? traitor? coward?

 

[Marduk]

This is all a solution completely detached from the reality of the problem, so much that if the solution was realistic, the problem would have never existed in the first place.
Namely, NATO, USA or whoever turning against a questionable NATO ally, with a huge army and some considerable political utility, going full Russia with demographic engineering at gunpoint,... over merely being a questionable ally?

Dude, the West didn't even do that to fucking Pakistan, and they are full of islamists who sabotaged the Afghanistan mission and hid Osama themselves.
Also didn't do it to massively corrupt and generally useless Afghan government, even when a Taliban takeover was the alternative.
Didn't even split Iraq after regime changing Saddam even though they could and politically it would be far easier to justify.

If post 60's West was willing to act like this, then its allies and enemies would be both far better behaved and actually scared. Including Turkey. Probably with Kemalists still in charge.
Not that there would even be a Ukraine war now. Not after the NATO intervention in Georgia, Belarus or Donbas in 2014. There would be no migrant crisis either, migrants would be getting deported to NATO controlled Libya and Syria, so Turkey could not blackmail anyone with migrants even if they dared to. It would be a very different world. Perhaps a better one. But it's not the way things are. And things are such that Turkey has a big army, strategic position and willingness to do things most of NATO would have a dozens more or less stupid decisionmaking blocks about... But only for a price of course. Which you can hate, but it's still better than those who won't do things that need to be done and don't even know themselves what price would change that.

 

[Airedale260]

Erdogan upset over a Quran burning, so won't support Sweden entering NATO; it is plain Erdogan wants to force other EU/NATO nations to enforce Islamic laws on their own soil as a condition of entering NATO.

How long till someone decides the easiest way to get Sweden and Finland into NATO is to remove Erdogan/Erdogan's power from the equation.

I'd say it's a silly cover for his real gripe - he didn't get what he wanted from USA.

White House, Congress standoff over F-16 sale to Turkey returns to the fore

Sen. Bob Menendez is vowing to block the arms sale to the NATO ally; he’s supported by a bipartisan group of lawmakers, as well as the American Jewish Committee

jewishinsider.com

It’s partly the failure to get what he wants from the U.S. and also partly that he’s really, really pissed off about the moralizing Sweden has been doing about welcoming Kurds and Turkish dissidents for the past several years. Some of his gripes are just him throwing a tantrum, sure, but as Sweden is finding out the hard way, kicking someone around to score domestic political points has a real cost when you need that someone down the road for something far more important.

Until Turkey officially votes to reject Sweden’s application, though, it’s still possible something might happen behind the scenes. Ultimately we do need Turkey as the sort of gateway to the eastern Med, Black Sea, and the Middle East, so they aren’t going anywhere. Plus Erdogan is up for re-election in May, so unless he can point to a significant win in exchange for approving Sweden’s accession, I wouldn’t expect him to just roll over.

Snip.

Yeah this pretty much hits the nail on the head. If we were (and are) still willing to tolerate Pakistan’s shit (which includes actively cozying up to both the Taliban and China), we aren’t going to try and do what the Soviets did in the bad old days.

Quite simply, that isn’t who we are, and it’s not at all in our interests to put that kind of pressure over a diplomatic kerfuffle. Note that Erdogan hasn’t said shit about rejecting Finland, who at this point is arguably the bigger concern given that they sit right on Russia’s northwest border*.

The U.S. has gotten where it is by virtue of not invading its allies or putting guns to their heads every time they do something we don’t like. That’s earned us a lot of credibility in the world, and even with the various bumps, it’s why countries bordering our adversaries tend to prefer to align with us. Sure, they have to do some accommodation, but that’s a lot different from being a puppet.

Edit: *-Technically speaking so does Norway, but only on a tiny strip and NATO war plans envisaged the Soviets rolling into northern Norway pretty much unopposed. And while there are Soviet naval facilities on the Kola peninsula (including nuclear sub bases), Finland is ideal because they could easily sever the only road and rail link between the Kola and St. Petersburg (and Moscow), and being able to credibly threaten St. Petersburg and its environs means Russia has even less room to maneuver.

 

[Marduk]

Yeah, everything is still in the air, guess this meme is going to have its second golden age now:

 

[History Learner]

It's based how a single Russian(?) journalist is cucking the entirety of Sweden right now and there's really nothing they can do about it.

 

[Bacle]

Fucking Islamists; trying to dictate what the religious laws are in another nation in order to get them in NATO.

I hope every citizen of Sweden burns a quran on camera and on tv, so Erdy can see how little this is going to help him.

Edit:


Vengeful Finns are something that should give Russia nightmares.

 

[Terthna]

Edit:


Vengeful Finns are something that should give Russia nightmares.

Apparently, the memorial was only built three years ago, in a town that hasn't been part of Finland since 1947, and was demolished by court order; so not quite as controversial as implied, but still rather petty and in bad taste.

 

[Zachowon]

Dude my people hate the Turks we fought them for centuries when they actually were an empire and tried to impose Islam. But they are better than the Swedes. I swear I hope conservacucks end up having their children raised by gay or trans couples because every action you take makes those leftists stronger so you and your children should suffer for it.

Seriously America won’t be affected by Sweden it is not Mexico or Canada. The only reason people Stan for it is either because it’s super liberal or they love to suck up the blonde blue eyed whitetype. I don’t give a shit about race so I see how liberal and disgusting Sweden is it’s so bad that Islamists are preferable. Why do you care about Sweden?

Or because it basically allows NATO full control over Europe except for Austria, Switzerland and Serbia