Fictional "Villains" Who Did Nothing Wrong Thread

[Megadeath]

Weren't Dragonflyz the male version of those Sky Dancer flying toy dolls?

Yes! The toys gave rise to a tv show to advertise them. It's unclear why they thought the best ad would be a post apocalyptic fascist dystopia thoroughly stricken with nepotism, fighting against radiation mutants in a grey on grey morality war to the death...

 

[What's the sitch?]

The humans from Avatar. They tried to negotiate and likely had the technology to actually mine cleanly, but the Navi refused to deal and were constantly being assholes while the humans kept bending over backwards to work with them.

Realistically that area is just gonna get hit from orbit with a massive defensive kill radius establised and future negotiations with tribes in other areas will be done in a more forceful manner if at all.

It seems that the humans really needed that mineral to survive, and did make good faith effort. So as a human I have to side with them.

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The people/hunters trying to kill the "main character vampires/monsters" in many series when said vampires/monsters continue to accrue body counts(beyond self defense).

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Also the lady that killed the Crystalline entity in Star Trek enterprise. It was scourging planets and Picard wanted to somehow negotiate with it.

 

[Megadeath]

The humans from Avatar. They tried to negotiate and likely had the technology to actually mine cleanly, but the Navi refused to deal and were constantly being assholes while the humans kept bending over backwards to work with them.

Realistically that area is just gonna get hit from orbit with a massive defensive kill radius establised and future negotiations with tribes in other areas will be done in a more forceful manner if at all.

It seems that the humans really needed that mineral to survive, and did make good faith effort. So as a human I have to side with them.

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The people/hunters trying to kill the "main character vampires/monsters" in many series when said vampires/monsters continue to accrue body counts(beyond self defense).

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What makes you think they needed it to survive? All I remember is the cartoonishly evil business guy basically doing the thing where his eyes turn to dollar signs when we're introduced to it as a paper weight on his desk. I also don't remember the humans "bending over backwards"?

Regardless, when you show up in someone else's solar system, and tell them to move so you can have the minerals on their planet, under their home, and then go for murder when they say no, you did in fact do something wrong no matter how politely you asked.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

That world and everything on it rightfully belong to its sentient native inhabitants, the Na'vi. The humans are violent thieves and morally in the wrong from start to finish. If the Na'vi do not want to deal, the only ethical thing for humans to do is go the fuck away and leave them alone.

 

[Arlos]

No, the planets belong to itself, since it’s actually sentient, even the Na’vi are here on a lease.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

That world and everything on it rightfully belong to its sentient native inhabitants, the Na'vi. The humans are violent thieves and morally in the wrong from start to finish. If the Na'vi do not want to deal, the only ethical thing for humans to do is go the fuck away and leave them alone.

Too bad.

Unobtanium is essential to human space travel, without which our civilisation is in serious trouble. That aside, the Na'vi have something we want, they won't deal, and they are primitive. Law of empires comes into effect here, which is default geopolitics alas.

If the Na'vi were smart, they'd have traded unobtanium for technology and other such things so they could catch up and add more cards to their bargaining hand. Also, compliance and respect could somewhat put them in a "friend of Rome" scenario where they are mostly left to their own devices. Some tribes probably did that with the RDA, mind you, and shook their heads in disbelief at Omaticaya pride and stubbornness ("guys, they can rain death from the sky, let's not piss them off").

 

[Megadeath]

Too bad.

Unobtanium is essential to human space travel, without which our civilisation is in serious trouble. That aside, the Na'vi have something we want, they won't deal, and they are primitive. Law of empires comes into effect here, which is default geopolitics alas.

If the Na'vi were smart, they'd have traded unobtanium for technology and other such things so they could catch up and add more cards to their bargaining hand. Also, compliance and respect could somewhat put them in a "friend of Rome" scenario where they are mostly left to their own devices. Some tribes probably did that with the RDA, mind you, and shook their heads in disbelief at Omaticaya pride and stubbornness ("guys, they can rain death from the sky, let's not piss them off").

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual point of the thread. "The strong do what they want and the weak endure what they must." does not mean there's nothing wrong in the actions of the strong. And personally, if you ascribe to that model of ethics I sincerely hope you find yourself in a weak position and suffer horribly for it, so that you might inadvertently come to embrace a less disgusting paradigm.

Also, ironically to your point, those oh so mighty corporate pirates got their ass kicked by the backwards natives and if you think the bad guys will win round two in the next movie I've got an investment opportunity in a bridge I'd love to talk to you about.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual point of the thread. "The strong do what they want and the weak endure what they must." does not mean there's nothing wrong in the actions of the strong.

They aren't usually being inherently immoral either. Conquest happens, it is in our nature. And as far as conquerors go, the RDA were being unbelievably restrained. We've been there for decades by the time Sully shows up, and we're still trying to do diplomacy. How do you think a spacefaring version of the Mongols, the Timurids or the Assyrians would have handled the Na'vi?

And personally, if you ascribe to that model of ethics I sincerely hope you find yourself in a weak position and suffer horribly for it, so that you might inadvertently come to embrace a less disgusting paradigm.

That "disgusting paradigm" has been default geopolitics from the Kings of Sumer to the 20th century, and will likely be so again after this odd intermission. Pax Americana has given the West some very odd ideas about the world.

You don't have to like it, but it is what it is. Accept it or be flattened by it.

Also, ironically to your point, those oh so mighty corporate pirates got their ass kicked by the backwards natives and if you think the bad guys will win round two in the next movie I've got an investment opportunity in a bridge I'd love to talk to you about.

Did we watch the same movie? The Na'vi were getting reamed so hard in the finale that Eywa herself had to intervene, mere minutes before the humans were about to carpet bomb the tree of souls. A veritable act of god was necessary to stop a few hundred private security. That's not a good showing for the natives, especially given that man will return with proper military force and likely weapons of mass destruction: we need that unobtanium.

 

[Megadeath]

They aren't usually being inherently immoral either. Conquest happens, it is in our nature. And as far as conquerors go, the RDA were being unbelievably restrained. We've been there for decades by the time Sully shows up, and we're still trying to do diplomacy. How do you think a spacefaring version of the Mongols, the Timurids or the Assyrians would have handled the Na'vi?

That "disgusting paradigm" has been default geopolitics from the Kings of Sumer to the 20th century, and will likely be so again after this odd intermission. Pax Americana has given the West some very odd ideas about the world.

You don't have to like it, but it is what it is. Accept it or be flattened by it.

So? Taking what you want because you can without regard for the people you're taking from is still wrong. Saying "Oh, but everyone does it!" doesn't actually change that. You're using this thread to grandstand about some entirely irrelevant point, and it's stupid. The question is "Which fictional villains did nothing wrong." and your answer is "Well, these guys are no worse than the mongel scourge!"

Here's still hoping you lose everything you care about to someone with more power who doesn't give a shit about you.

Did we watch the same movie? The Na'vi were getting reamed so hard in the finale that Eywa herself had to intervene, mere minutes before the humans were about to carpet bomb the tree of souls. A veritable act of god was necessary to stop a few hundred private security. That's not a good showing for the natives, especially given that man will return with proper military force and likely weapons of mass destruction: we need that unobtanium.

Blah, blah, blah... *Insert justification and excuses here.* And, oh look! The bad guys lost. And they will again in the next movie.

 

[Battlegrinder]

That "disgusting paradigm" has been default geopolitics from the Kings of Sumer to the 20th century, and will likely be so again after this odd intermission. Pax Americana has given the West some very odd ideas about the world.

It still is the default, it's just that the strong don't admit that's what they're doing.

So? Taking what you want because you can without regard for the people you're taking from is still wrong.

This wasn't "without regard", the humans tried to resch some sort of arraignment to trade for years, only resorting to force as a last resort (and even then, the trade deals only failed because the entire situation was contrived to force them to fail).

Here's still hoping you lose everything you care about to someone with more power who doesn't give a shit about you.

This is getting close to a rule violation, I suggest you ease off.

 

[Megadeath]

This wasn't "without regard", the humans tried to resch some sort of arraignment to trade for years, only resorting to force as a last resort (and even then, the trade deals only failed because the entire situation was contrived to force them to fail).

If I spend years pursuing your anal virginity but you're unwilling to give it up, am I justified in using force to take it so long as it's my last resort? I'm prepared to make some tremendous concessions if I get to fuck you in the ass.

This is getting close to a rule violation, I suggest you ease off.

Haha! If he's arguing that the humans did nothing wrong, how can it be against the rules to suggest that I hope that what they did is done to him?

 

[Battlegrinder]

If I spend years pursuing your anal virginity but you're unwilling to give it up, am I justified in using force to take it so long as it's my last resort? I'm prepared to make some tremendous concessions if I get to fuck you in the ass.

Come up with a less disingenuous analogy.

If he's arguing that the humans did nothing wrong, how can it be against the rules to suggest that I hope that what they did is done to him?

Hm, yes, quite a mystery why the rules might frown on unwarranted hostility directed against imaginary space aliens, but have less tolerance toward doing the same thing to fellow posters.

 

[Husky_Khan]

The humans from Avatar. They tried to negotiate and likely had the technology to actually mine cleanly, but the Navi refused to deal and were constantly being assholes while the humans kept bending over backwards to work with them.

Realistically that area is just gonna get hit from orbit with a massive defensive kill radius establised and future negotiations with tribes in other areas will be done in a more forceful manner if at all.

It seems that the humans really needed that mineral to survive, and did make good faith effort. So as a human I have to side with them.

Did Jake Sully ever just tell those Smurfs why they wanted the tree or was he too busy banging the Princess?

I mean srsly, I get we needed an artificial time limit of three months or whatever but it was like seven years or whatever to even get there. It's clear their operatiom was highly localized in a jungle of all places. If they had six months or a year they could be learning about that Eywa network and finding a way of responsible strip mining the Moon.

Or maybe if like Jake Sully did his job and Doctor Ripley didn't whisk them away from regularly reporting in.

 

[Megadeath]

Come up with a less disingenuous analogy.

It's a vanishingly rare resource. You don't even consider it a resource but an important part of your identity. Trading for it goes beyond morally repugnant to you. I want it. I don't share your beliefs or morality, and therefore think your lack of willingness to trade is backwards and quaint.

I can think of other parallels too. Why do you think it's disingenuous for me to compare the humans asking the Na'vi to bend over and take it up the ass to me asking you the Same?

Hm, yes, quiet a mystery why the rules might frown on unwarranted hostility directed against imaginary space aliens, but have less tolerance toward doing the same thing to fellow posters.

Well then we'll have to agree to disagree about how warranted hostility towards someone who espouses a shameful and odious ethical framework is. I didn't realise the rules required me to keep quiet about it when I think someone said something disgusting.

 

[Battlegrinder]

It's a vanishingly rare resource. You don't even consider it a resource but an important part of your identity. Trading for it goes beyond morally repugnant to you. I want it. I don't share your beliefs or morality, and therefore think your lack of willingness to trade is backwards and quaint.

See, thats precisely why this is disingenuous, because the Na'vi don't consider trading unobtainium to be morally repugnant or holding it to be part of thier culture, they doeven know it's there in the first place.

Well then we'll have to agree to disagree about how warranted hostility towards someone who espouses a shameful and odious ethical framework is. I didn't realise the rules required me to keep quiet about it when I think someone said something disgusting.

The rules don't require you keep quiet, they require you to express your disagreement in a civil manner.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

See, thats precisely why this is disingenuous, because the Na'vi don't consider trading unobtainium to be morally repugnant or holding it to be part of thier culture, they doeven know it's there in the first place.

Not to mention that we really need that stuff. It's a superconductor for energy that is essential to space travel, without which we're stuffed.

 

[Megadeath]

See, thats precisely why this is disingenuous, because the Na'vi don't consider trading unobtainium to be morally repugnant or holding it to be part of thier culture, they doeven know it's there in the first place.

That's pretty disingenuous or forgetful of you. They neither know nor care about the unobtanium, but they do about their tree which sits above the contested minerals. Thus in fact the contention. They consider giving up that tree sacrilegious, it's basically their gateway to a God that actually talks back.

The rules don't require you keep quiet, they require you to express your disagreement in a civil manner.

I didn't think I was uncivil insofar as is possible for the issue. How would you have phrased things to do better?

 

[Battlegrinder]

Not to mention that we really need that stuff. It's a superconductor for energy that is essential to space travel, without which we're stuffed.

In fairness to the film, that particular fact was cut from the final script.

In fairness to the film's critics, it was cut because leaving it in got in the way of Cameron's ability to slant the narrative entirely against the humans at every point.

That's pretty disingenuous or forgetful of you.

We were talking about the humans wanting mining rights, and the na'vi not wanting to give them those rights. I read your analogy as applying to rights, not the specific issue of the tree, because you were more focused on coming with the most vulgar analogy you could devise rather than making a clear point.

How would you have phrased things to do better?

I would have said "you are wrong to believe that might makes right, because X", rather than "I hope someone stronger does something bad to you".

I would also have read what he said more charitable. Sovereign did not say "the world runs on might makes right, as it should" he said "geopolitics runs on might makes right, because it does". He was making an argument based on realpolitik, not on moral idealism.

 

[Megadeath]

-Snip-
We were talking about the humans wanting mining rights, and the na'vi not wanting to give them those rights. I read your analogy as applying to rights, not the specific issue of the tree, because you were more focused on coming with the most vulgar analogy you could devise rather than making a clear point.

1. I considered the involvement of the tree implicit, since the issue is rather central to the conflict.
2. No, I wasn't. I went with literally the first rough analogy that came to mind. It had to be something I could assume you'd have deep moral issues with to the point of true repugnancy, but which would seem entirely pointless under another plausible and easily imaginable moral framework. Without knowing more about you, I was forced to devolve to the lowest common denominator.
3. Now that you do understand the analogy do you understand why I would consider it repugnant to suggest that it's okay for humans to steal the land and minerals and murder the inhabitants so long as they make a "reasonable" attempt at negotiation first?

I would have said "you are wrong to believe that might makes right, because X", rather than "I hope someone stronger does something bad to you".

I would also have read what he said more charitable. Sovereign did not say "the world runs on might makes right, as it should" he said "geopolitics runs on might makes right, because it does". He was making an argument based on realpolitik, not on moral idealism.

Fair enough. I should at least make allowance for the possibility someone is stupid rather than malicious. I just assumed that when he suggested the Avatar humans for the thread "Fictional 'Villains' Who Did Nothing Wrong" he was supporting the ideology he proposed that espouses they did nothing wrong.

An argument based on the Realpolitik has no place in a thread for discussing morality. Really you ought to be warning him off the derail rather than giving me shit for not being nice to people who say awful things.

 

[Battlegrinder]

I completely understand why the humans were in the wrong in avatar, the entire film was designed to make an in-universe defense of them impossible (at the cost of making an out of universe defense trivially easy), which is not what I intended to do, my point was just "no, they did have some regard for the na'vi", not they were therefore morally right.

An argument based on the Realpolitik has no place in a thread for discussing morality.

Realpolitik in this context would be acting in the best interest of mankind (as sovereign is factoring in cut content that explains the RDA's actions), which is close enough to a general moral question that I consider it reasonably on topic.

Really you ought to be warning him off the derail rather than giving me shit for not being nice to people who say awful things.

Allowing widespread personal attacks is worse for the health of the forum then allowing relatively minor drift within a topic.