Fallout Fallout General Thread - War, War Never Changes. Nor do game engines.

[Duke Nukem]

SO, notes from the first few hours of modded Fallout 4:

Better Locational Damage has proved to be a bit of a mixed bag, though still overall quite enjoyable. One the one hand, it makes combat against even just a handful of raiders feel tense, since you can die really easily if they catch you off guard (particularly since BLD makes headshots an instant kill if you don't have a helmet, and I don't have a helmet), and the same applies in reverse. But I am a bit worried about how this will work in the long run, as it seems like it could very easily force you into a single combat style by making more aggressive tactics too dangerous. I've got a full suit of light combat armor that I stumbled into, and even with that it feels really, really dangerous trying to play aggressively. Maybe I should get some flashbangs....

As a side note, BLD gives miniguns a substantial buff, so the fight in concord against the deathclaw is hilarious one sided. I'm not sure precisely how one sided, since it was dark at the time (and I use the darker nights mod, so dark is really dark), and between that and the smoke from the minigun I couldn't exactly see what I shootings at all that well, but the 'claw certainly seemed to die pretty fast.

The Misriah armory mod has been working out very well. I can't say their attempt to provide a justification for halo weapons in fallout is all that great, but it's nice that they tried (particularly given several creation clubs mods are just "some dude out in the glowing sea has a BFG, go get it"). Right now all I've found is an M6D and...some kinda battle rifle/DRM hybrid thing )not sure which one it's supposed to be because fallout 4's scheme where weapon modifications update the gun's name makes it a bit hard to tell), and they look great. Not that's "look" and not "shoot", because right now I can't afford to use them, since the M6 is .50 cal handgun (which it seems to live up to based on the damage values listed) and I only have about 3 rounds of that, and the rifle is in .308 and locked to a 3 round burst, so it would burn through all my .308 in 4 burst. I also like that Misriah guns have a slot in the mod station that lets you increase or decrease their damage, since I can adjust them to be balanced with other fallout 4 guns without having to open up the game files and tinker with damage values that way.

The Useful Crank mod for laser muskets has also been really handy. It reworks the laser musket to no longer use ammo, and instead it's actually crank powered and you have effectively unlimited ammo. Which is nice, it gives the musket a niche and makes it much more useful early game, since it's accurate enough to headshot people (hm....I don't know how BLD handles laser weapon headshots on tough things, I'll have to check that).

The various texture, lighting, etc mods are working great, no performance issues of any kind, which was the one thing I was really worried about.

The wasteland codex is a fun little mod if you're a fan of the storyteller series, and it provides a bit of setting info that the game doesn't. The storyteller himself is actually a recruitable companion, though I don't know where he is.

I also ran the anime character mod. It's a bit hard on the immersion, but since there's every chance I spend a fair bit of this playthrough in space marine armor shooting people with an MA5, I think that ship has long since sailed. So far, my only real issue with it is that one of it's required submods, 512 hair colors (or something like that) is a massive pain to use, because scrolling through hundreds of hair colors looking for the shade you want (they're not organized in any apparent order, presumably due to some mod conflict I don't care to sort out) is a massive pain in the neck. I ask you, what's wrong with some simple R/G/B sliders?

This actually covers most of the mods I've been using, the only ones left are power armor mods (which I can't test quite yet, I just don't have the resources to tinker armor with power armor), sim settlements (haven't unlocked those yet, though it's my #1 priority), and a few weapons I haven't found yet. I'm really interested in getting my hands on a Plasrail, I've always hated fallout plasma weapons but this one seems like it fixes most of the issues I have with them. I'm somewhat pumped about getting my hands on an R91, though as that mod apparently has some sound bugs, that excitement is slightly dampened.

An enclave mod called Fallout: America Rising is good mod if your looking for a new faction to play as. it's not 100% finished but its good as it is, it has its own voice acting for characters too.

 

[Battlegrinder]

An enclave mod called Fallout: America Rising is good mod if your looking for a new faction to play as. it's not 100% finished but its good as it is, it has its own voice acting for characters too.

I considered it, but it's mutually exclusive with joining the brotherhood. I do have Outcasts and Remnants installed and it doesn't have that issue (as far as I know), so I'll be reviewing that when I get to it.

As far as the enclave in general goes, I'm not really a fan. "The pre-war government trying to reassert authority, but it's evil" is a cliche that I really can't stand, and fallout implements it really, really poorly.

 

[Duke Nukem]

I considered it, but it's mutually exclusive with joining the brotherhood. I do have Outcasts and Remnants installed and it doesn't have that issue (as far as I know), so I'll be reviewing that when I get to it.

As far as the enclave in general goes, I'm not really a fan. "The pre-war government trying to reassert authority, but it's evil" is a cliche that I really can't stand, and fallout implements it really, really poorly.

Enclave arent 100% genocidal crazies in the mod.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Enclave arent 100% genocidal crazies in the mod.

Yes, but that's not the big issue, it's that whole "locks you out of the brotherhood" thing. I generally don't like it when a mod or DLC gets too intrusive into the main game, I'd rather that they either remain their own thing, or integrate so thoroughly you don't notice, and interfering with the base game storyline crosses a line for me. One of my favorite NV mods, New Vegas Bounties III, can hit you with a perk that permanently lowers your draw speed and fire rate, while upping your damage. DPS wish it's wash, but you can feel that change in every fight later one. It's a very bold move, but it earned that after hours of very well made, very well written, very carefully designed storytelling. If it had just done that after a little bit, or had just been "alright" instead of amazing, I would have been seriously irked because it's the mod author basically going "wooho, look at me, look at what I did" every single time you shoot someone, and they didn't earn the right to do that.

A mod that's a not entirely finished first act of a 3 part story cannot, by definition, have earned the kind of respect from me it would need in order to permanently lock me out of joining the BoS.

 

[Navarro]

I considered it, but it's mutually exclusive with joining the brotherhood. I do have Outcasts and Remnants installed and it doesn't have that issue (as far as I know), so I'll be reviewing that when I get to it.

As far as the enclave in general goes, I'm not really a fan. "The pre-war government trying to reassert authority, but it's evil" is a cliche that I really can't stand, and fallout implements it really, really poorly.

That's because in FO2 they're nothing but cartoon villains and in FO3 they're schizophrenically written. And FO3's plotline in general is a piece of nonsensical trash that only works because of its emotional beats and falls apart at the slightest logical interrogation.

(FO2 in general suffers from being too silly and from being FO1 BUT MORE SO! with a completely different supervillain lair you have to journey to and blow up).

 

[Battlegrinder]

That's because in FO2 they're nothing but cartoon villains and in FO3 they're schizophrenically written. And FO3's plotline in general is a piece of nonsensical trash that only works because of its emotional beats and falls apart at the slightest logical interrogation.

(FO2 in general suffers from being too silly and from being FO1 BUT MORE SO! with a completely different supervillain lair you have to journey to and blow up).

Essentially, yes. The idea of the Enclave works as a villain, if a cliche one. But making them an actually good villain means you have to basically throw out everything about them but the name, the concept, and the the armor and gear, and the rewrite them from the ground up with new motives and history.

And you can certainly rewrite them to work better (and in fact you have done so), but as a consequence they're going to be very obviously a heavily reworked of the Enclave, as compared to a faction like the NCR that's got a solid enough background you can just use them as they are and they'll work.

 

[Spartan303]

Say what ya'll want about Fallout 4 but I love the game.

 

[Navarro]

Essentially, yes. The idea of the Enclave works as a villain, if a cliche one. But making them an actually good villain means you have to basically throw out everything about them but the name, the concept, and the the armor and gear, and the rewrite them from the ground up with new motives and history.

I mean, it depends on if you want a shooting gallery full of bad guys. FO2 does that quite well. But that's not really a great villain (unless you're using the standards of NMA, who consider two variations of "I'm going to kill you now" really epic dialogue worthy of Shakespeare).

And you can certainly rewrite them to work better (and in fact you have done so), but as a consequence they're going to be very obviously a heavily reworked of the Enclave, as compared to a faction like the NCR that's got a solid enough background you can just use them as they are and they'll work.

The best way to rework them is to subvert the post-apoc cliche you mentioned, which I did. Remove the genocide, gray them up, allow the player to potentially join them. There are all sorts of questions you can ask. Can we really trust them to rebuild America? Do their methods in doing so go beyond the pale? Is rebuilding America (which involves forcefully conquering a lot of people) even a good idea?

 

[Navarro]

Basically, the Enclave works better as a force analogous to the BoS in 4 than as straight-out bad guys for the player to defeat.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Say what ya'll want about Fallout 4 but I love the game.

I'd still place it below 3, but it's still a great game. My big sticking point is that it takes ideas from the past games just a little bit too far.

For example, 3 had guns, and you could kinda shoot them but not all that well. Modders came in, and added weapon mods so you could upgrade and tinker with those guns.

NV didn't do much for the gunplay (I don't consider ADS to be an improvement), and added weapon mods, but they were kinda crappy, and it added more guns and more ammo types...to excess, honestly. Modders came, added even better weapon mods.

4 cut down the number of guns to a reasonable amount. Then it made them all super modular and customizable, so you could not only upgrade them, but you could upgrade them and customize them to suit your style. And your can shoot regular bullets, or you can go play something else. And it finally improved the gunplay to actually be fun. But then they cut a few too many guns, and the new SPECIAL system means that skills are no longer useful for actually using guns, your skill with guns is based on how good you are at FPS games.


A lot of the game is like that, it makes massive improvements in several areas, and then stumbles just a tiny bit at the end. I don't think it ever makes a design decision that I think is fundamentally wrong, just a number of them that are sub-par.

The best way to rework them is to subvert the post-apoc cliche you mentioned, which I did. Remove the genocide, gray them up, allow the player to potentially join them. There are all sorts of questions you can ask. Can we really trust them to rebuild America? Is rebuilding America (which involves forcefully conquering a lot of people) even a good idea?

I think the issue with a rework of them, either officially or in a mod, is that they already have too much baggage from 2 and 3. The enclave are pretty well cemented as badly written bad guys who are bad, and I'm not sure if you could sell "no, no, we're totally not like the old, cartoon bad guy enclave, trust us, and also go crush all that stand against us beneath your heel" to the players.

 

[Navarro]

I think the issue with a rework of them, either officially or in a mod, is that they already have too much baggage from 2 and 3. The enclave are pretty well cemented as badly written bad guys who are bad, and I'm not sure if you could sell "no, no, we're totally not like the old, cartoon bad guy enclave, trust us, and also go crush all that stand against us beneath your heel" to the players.

See how many side with the BoS in 4 pretty much because of their swag (i.e. the best weapons and PA in the game). Hell, there are peeps who unironically support Caesar's Legion, and they don't even have the swag!

 

[Battlegrinder]

See how many side with the BoS in 4 pretty much because of their swag (i.e. the best weapons and PA in the game). Hell, there are peeps who unironically support Caesar's Legion, and they don't even have the swag!

I see a lot more justifications in terms of "well, they're not that bad" or "they're still the best choice out of the 3", rather than just talking up their gear, plus the BoS in 4 is really riding on the coatails of the BoS in 3. Take that away, and I don't think they'd get that much support. The BoS in NV certainly gets a lot more flak and a lot less support, probably because they don't have that postive connection that the chapter in 4 does.

As for the legion, I think I've seen exactly one person openly support them, and I still can't tell if they were serious or not.

 

[Navarro]

I see a lot more justifications in terms of "well, they're not that bad" or "they're still the best choice out of the 3", rather than just talking up their gear, plus the BoS in 4 is really riding on the coatails of the BoS in 3. Take that away, and I don't think they'd get that much support.

Put Enclave in 4, have them carry out exactly the same actions as the BoS, and you'd see the same arguments (and the "why Brotherhood bad guys" crowd would be "why Enclave good guys"). Most people don't join factions in video games because they make a deep examination of their moral and philosophical underpinnings. They do it because they look cool, or do something badass, or supply good gear to the player. Look at how many people support the Institute simply because their base is very clean and sciencey.

The BoS in NV certainly gets a lot more flak and a lot less support, probably because they don't have that postive connection that the chapter in 4 does.

The BoS in NV also isn't a major faction, or even a joinable one. If the BOS in FNV got an ending where they took over Hoover Dam and installed a technofeudalist system over the Mojave, I'd bet you'd find people arguing that they were the best choice.

As for the legion, I think I've seen exactly one person openly support them, and I still can't tell if they were serious or not.

The Legion stanning I've seen on Reddit ...





Not to mention all the weird fangirls thirsty for Vulpes Inculta (I think Vulpes/Female Courier is literally the single most shipped FNV pairing). And that in itself is something. When one of the most vile characters in the game has a coterie of fangirls ...

EDIT:

I mean, the two Enclave mods for FNV and FO4 have been very popular even with the latter being unfinished, and one of the main selling points of Fallout Miami is "you get to join the Enclave!".

 

[Duke Nukem]

Put Enclave in 4, have them carry out exactly the same actions as the BoS, and you'd see the same arguments (and the "why Brotherhood bad guys" crowd would be "why Enclave good guys"). Most people don't join factions in video games because they make a deep examination of their moral and philosophical underpinnings. They do it because they look cool, or do something badass, or supply good gear to the player. Look at how many people support the Institute simply because their base is very clean and sciencey.



The BoS in NV also isn't a major faction, or even a joinable one. If the BOS in FNV got an ending where they took over Hoover Dam and installed a technofeudalist system over the Mojave, I'd bet you'd find people arguing that they were the best choice.



The Legion stanning I've seen on Reddit ...

Not to mention all the weird fangirls thirsty for Vulpes Inculta (I think Vulpes/Female Courier is literally the single most shipped FNV pairing). And that in itself is something. When one of the most vile characters in the game has a coterie of fangirls ...

I like Enclave not just because of their aesthetic but also because they seemed like they had the best chance of restoring america if they weren't so genocidal. Colonel Autumn didn't seem to bad though i wish i could have joined him in FO3.

 

[Tyzuris]

Say what ya'll want about Fallout 4 but I love the game.

Played New Vegas yet? That one is the best.

 

[Spartan303]

Played New Vegas yet? That one is the best.

Not yet no.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Put Enclave in 4, have them carry out exactly the same actions as the BoS, and you'd see the same arguments (and the "why Brotherhood bad guys" crowd would be "why Enclave good guys"). Most people don't join factions in video games because they make a deep examination of their moral and philosophical underpinnings. They do it because they look cool, or do something badass, or supply good gear to the player. Look at how many people support the Institute simply because their base is very clean and sciencey.

I've also met only one person who openly backs the insitute, so I'm not exactly convinced by that. At least in my experance, this is not how people engage with fallout factions.

The BoS in NV also isn't a major faction, or even a joinable one. If the BOS in FNV got an ending where they took over Hoover Dam and installed a technofeudalist system over the Mojave, I'd bet you'd find people arguing that they were the best choice.

You actually can join the BOS in NV, though it's complicated.

The Legion stanning I've seen on Reddit ...

I see...like 3 or 4 actually pro legion dudes there. Not a great showing.

Played New Vegas yet? That one is the best.

I would heavily dispute that.

NV has better writing for the main quest (sidequests are tied or perhaps even giving an edge to 3), The amazing Old World Blues DLC, unique weapons that are actually unique looking and feeling, and a slightly better repair and crafting system. Those are it's only strong points, in every other category 3 wins.

3's strong points are:
-NV's quest design is aggressively terrible, and off the top of my head I can think of a dozen ways you can screw yourself over entirely by accident or by doing something players would logically do. 3 doesn't have that problem.
-A much more interesting, enjoyable wasteland to explore, with a ton more things to search for and collect.
-a much wider range of allowable play styles. NV pushes you hard toward level actions and other semi-autos
better DLC in general. OWB is great, the others are mixed and Dead money is just awful, while 3's DLCs are generally less good but as not as bad
-NV has better unique weapons, that the player has to cheat or steal to obtain, because they're often in the hands of NPCs and not up for grabs via exploring (important, character based, quest giving NPCs too, not people you can just murder in the course of adventuring and loot the items). 3's aren't as unique looking, but it's much easier to get ahold of them, off hand I can only recall 3 that are held by someone you don't want to kill.
-3 has a better and wider enemy variety. NV has like 3 kinds of wildlife, raiders, and then roving hit mobs of which faction you've ticked off. 3 has basically the same, plus enclave dudes, plus mutants, plus robots, which appear rarely in NV if at all.


It's also much easier to fix 3's weakness via mods than NV. You can certainly fix the weapons and backport some of NV's mechanics. You can do a little bit to fix NV's railroady combat system, but a lot of the other points are impossible or minor. You can maybe get it to the point you only screw yourself over eight ways instead of twelve.

 

[Aaron Fox]

I like Enclave not just because of their aesthetic but also because they seemed like they had the best chance of restoring america if they weren't so genocidal. Colonel Autumn didn't seem to bad though i wish i could have joined him in FO3.

Personally, I wanted the option of asking him to have him and those who are with him defect from the Enclave or something like that. Autumn isn't a genocidal idiot, has a decent head on his shoulders given that you can convince him to surrender if you got a decent enough speech skill...

Played New Vegas yet? That one is the best.

If you want lots of nothing between important spots? Yeah, it's the best. Fallout 3 and 4 gave new life into Fallout because they gave you a lot of stuff to do that isn't tied to the main storyline. In Fallout 4 you can explore the entire commonwealth or fight raider camps or annihilate supermutant bases or scavenge shit for your ultra-awesome combat rifle or...

... its a lot of things to do.

Fallout 3 is similar just without all the settlement building and weapon construction bits.

 

[Navarro]

FNV just feels ... empty, yeah. I guess they're applying the FO1/FO2 model in a game set in a much smaller space.

 

[TyrantTriumphant]

While Fallout New Vegas is still my favorite Fallout game, I will admit there are things that Fallout 4 does better.

Fallout 4's crafting system is just great. I was constantly searching for new scrap to upgrade my stuff. It just really brought out my inner scavenger.

The combat was better. Particularly what they did with grenades. It was just such a pain to have to switch manually from guns to grenades in NV and 3.

That still doesn't make up for the awful story, side MMO like side quests, and general blandness of the world. It's still better than 3 though. I can't even play that on Steam anymore.