Business & Finance Economic Fallout: Pandemic, Brandon, Money Printer Go Brr, Ukraine.

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Try some math with that dooming, it's good for you.


Let's take a small semi like that, not the most optimal, as our baseline option. 25l of diesel is about 20kg of diesel, which is about 11,000 kcal per kg, so 220,000 kcal per 100km.
1kg of potatoes has about 700 kcal. That means 16 tons of them that our baseline truck carries have 11,200,000 kcal.
Conclusion being, that in order to move around a common staple food by one of less energy efficient but common means (trains, ships and river barges take less energy for the same distance and cargo), you would need to carry it for ridiculous 5090 km to reach 1:1 caloric cost ratio of transport fuel to cargo, which means that to get to double digits, you would need to circumnavigate the Earth and then drive some more. I'm not a logistics expert, but i think that would be a pretty stupid way to supply potatoes to anywhere. A more reasonable distance in US context is 1000-2000 km, and that's already pretty pessimistic scenario avoidable for most states if things get rough (the idea of California being a major food exporter may suffer).
yeah,no, keep dreaming and maybe read a book in your life, rather than digging for whatever straw fits your narrative:

But often it is the state’s incompetence that can help save us from the grip of statism and modernity—inverse iatrogenics. The insightful author Dmitri Orlov showed how calamities were avoided after the breakdown of the Soviet state because food production was inefficient and full of unintentional redundancies, which ended up working in favor of stability. Stalin played with agriculture, causing his share of famine. But he and his successors never managed to get agriculture to become “efficient,” that is, centralized and optimized as it is today in America, so every town had the staples growing around it. This was costlier, as they did not get the benefits of specialization, but this local lack of specialization allowed people to have access to all varieties of food in spite of the severe breakdown of the institutions. In the United States, we burn twelve calories in transportation for every calorie of nutrition; in Soviet Russia, it was one to one

You do realize that the fertilizers for the crops need to be transported, the corps need to be harvested, packaged, put through various forms of shipping in a long and complex supply chain just to get to the supermarket, then bought and taken home, right?

"I'm not fat, I'm just big boned."

More seriously, a lot of Americans simply don't have the time or money for a proper diet and American meal portions are also enormous.

I'm not sure what it's called in Bulgaria, but a "large" Big Mac combo with a Coke from a McDonald's drive-through is 1,400kCal all by itself and that's just lunch.

Heck, if you're going cheap and have a BOGO coupon 2 triple cheeseburgers and a cup of water is 1,100kCal for three dollars. That's my McDonald's lunch order.
I experienced the portions size difference when I was in the UK a few times.

I think the portions were triple the size of what I am accustomed to, and we are hardly the gold standard for healthy eating.

Like the staple tripe stew and raki diet, coupled with very lax oversight on stuff like HFCS and transfats.

And I have it on good authority that US portions are even bigger than UK ones.

Also, I just had a light dinner of lent and rice and now I am suffering for my sins on the treadmill.
 
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LordsFire

Internet Wizard
yeah,no, keep dreaming and maybe read a book in your life, rather than digging for whatever straw fits your narrative:



You do realize that the fertilizers for the crops need to be transported, the corps need to be harvested, packaged, put through various forms of shipping in a long and complex supply chain just to get to the supermarket, then bought and taken home, right?

Can you quote some actual calculations for how that works, or are you purely making an argument from authority, with some rando book as said authority?
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Can you quote some actual calculations for how that works, or are you purely making an argument from authority, with some rando book as said authority?
Considering that I am responding to a rando half-assed rebuttal based on one factoid brought out of context?

No.

You and the bronekokoshka can contact Taleb, or check the book's bibliography if you disagree with him and his sources, I am sure that he will be very eager to hear from you. 😂
No, seriously, please do and remember to post a link to the twatter thread, I want to see all the flying feathers and blood.:love::devilish::cool:

In any case, I'd rather put my trust in his figures, even if he is a massive arrogant ass, because a highly successful quantative analyst with his various qualifications is orders of magnitude superior to the bitching and moaning of a few randos on the net.
 
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LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Considering that I am responding to a rando half-assed rebuttal based on one factoid brought out of context?

No.

You and the bronekokoshka can contact Taleb, or check the book's bibliography if you disagree with him and his sources, I am sure that he will be very eager to hear from you. 😂
No, seriously, please do and remember to post a link to the twatter thread, I want to see all the flying feathers and blood.:love::devilish::cool:

In any case, I'd rather put my trust in his figures, even if he is a massive arrogant ass, because a highly successful quantative analyst with his various qualifications is orders of magnitude superior to the bitching and moaning of a few randos on the net.

No, actually he or she isn't. I've never heard of the person before, and his claim fails basic credibility checks. If it took that much energy to ship food, it'd be a hell of a lot cheaper to keep producing locally for most areas.

His claim is extraordinary. You are the one basing your argument on his or her claim. Provide some evidence.

There's a simple rule; assertions made without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

And that's before we get into the shifting of goalposts of 'energy to ship' to 'energy of the entire production, packaging, *and* shipping chain.'
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
No, actually he or she isn't. I've never heard of the person before, and his claim fails basic credibility checks. If it took that much energy to ship food, it'd be a hell of a lot cheaper to keep producing locally for most areas.

His claim is extraordinary. You are the one basing your argument on his or her claim. Provide some evidence.

There's a simple rule; assertions made without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

And that's before we get into the shifting of goalposts of 'energy to ship' to 'energy of the entire production, packaging, *and* shipping chain.'
Oh, yes, I shall defer to your wisdom, rando on the interwebz.

Note, that was sarcasm.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
yeah,no, keep dreaming and maybe read a book in your life, rather than digging for whatever straw fits your narrative:
That's a very unspecific statement that can be interpreted in at least 2 ways more likely to be correct than the interpretation you took out of it. With the lack of caveats given, he could mean anything really. Transportation? Not "transportation of food" nor "transportation in agriculture" could even mean the absolute total of transportation sector, as in everything from passenger planes to trucks moving construction materials, for which the figure may actually be plausible considering the massive difference between amount of consumer goods, personal transport and general amount of activity involving moving people and stuff around in USA vs USSR.
Or he's just simply wrong, he's a statistician, not an engineer :D
All depends on how you interpret the statement. But the fact is, the way you have chosen, "it takes double digit calories in energy to ship single digit calories in food to end consumers in the USA ", it is simply wrong.

You do realize that the fertilizers for the crops need to be transported, the corps need to be harvested, packaged, put through various forms of shipping in a long and complex supply chain just to get to the supermarket, then bought and taken home, right?
That still does not explain the ridiculous number, but don't let that get in the way of your dooming.
You and the bronekokoshka can contact Taleb
If you think you are being clever trying to sneak by pleasantries like that in foreign languages, think again, onuco.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
That's a very unspecific statement that can be interpreted in at least 2 ways more likely to be correct than the interpretation you took out of it. With the lack of caveats given, he could mean anything really. Transportation? Not "transportation of food" nor "transportation in agriculture" could even mean the absolute total of transportation sector, as in everything from passenger planes to trucks moving construction materials, for which the figure may actually be plausible considering the massive difference between amount of consumer goods, personal transport and general amount of activity involving moving people and stuff around in USA vs USSR.
Or he's just simply wrong, he's a statistician, not an engineer :D
All depends on how you interpret the statement. But the fact is, the way you have chosen, "it takes double digit calories in energy to ship single digit calories in food to end consumers in the USA ", it is simply wrong.


That still does not explain the ridiculous number, but don't let that get in the way of your dooming.

If you think you are being clever trying to sneak by pleasantries like that in foreign languages, think again, onuco.
cope-meme-idlememe-2.jpg
 

bintananth

behind a desk
I experienced the portions size difference when I was in the UK a few times.

I think the portions were triple the size of what I am accustomed to, and we are hardly the gold standard for healthy eating.

Like the staple tripe stew and raki diet, coupled with very lax oversight on stuff like HFCS and transfats.

And I have it on good authority that US portions are even bigger than UK ones.

Also, I just had a light dinner of lent and rice and now I am suffering for my sins on the treadmill.
When I was hospitalized for a most of April and May I actually had to try just to get a meal from the hospital menu that came close to two McDonald's triple cheesburgers and a cup of water. The food was tasty (it has to be or a patient won't eat it) but it wasn't calorie dense and I was ordering a second meal the moment the first one got to my room.

I still lost weight despite being basically bedridden for a month and the doctors thought I was diabetic because my blood sugar went haywire for three days while they were trying to get me into an OR.

EDIT: I'm 5'11 and weigh about 190bs. That's on the border of healthy and overweight for soneone my height and nowhere close to what could be called obese.
 
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Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
When I was hospitalized for a most of April and May I actually had to try just to get a meal from the hospital menu that came close to two McDonald's triple cheesburgers and a cup of water. The food was tasty (it has to be or a patient won't eat it) but it wasn't calorie dense and I was ordering a second meal the moment the first one got to my room.

I still lost weight despite being basically bedridden for a month and the doctors thought I was diabetic because my blood sugar went haywire for three days while they were trying to get me into an OR.

EDIT: I'm 5'11 and weigh about 190bs. That's on the border of healthy and overweight for soneone my height and nowhere close to what could be called obese.
Yeah, if you can use civilized measuring systems, that would be great.

There is no need to advertise your shame, but it is kind of you to do us the favor.
Sorry, dude, all I hear from you and the DebilZov crybabies is:


I don't even have to look at what just happened in Lisichansk to know that you are losing and you need to vent your frustrations somewhere.

Anyway, a quick google search shows some interesting findings

Fossil fuels and industrial farming
A 2002 study from the John Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health estimated that, using
our current system, an average of three calories of energy were needed to create one calorie of
edible food. Some foods require far more, such as grain-fed beef, which requires 35 calories for
every calorie of beef produced.1 However, the study did not include the energy used in
Home
Refrigeration &
Preparation
31.7%
Food Retail
4.0%
Packaging 6.9%
Restaurants &
Caterers 6.9%
Transport
13.9%
Agricultural
Production
20.8%
Processing
15.8%
Energy Expenditures
Related to Food Production

Energy and food production April 2010
2
processing and transporting food. Studies that do include such factors estimate that it takes an
average of 7 to 10 calories of input energy to produce one calorie of food.2
Accounting for most of this wasteful equation are the industrial practices upon which our food
system is built. These include inefficient growing practices, food processing and storage, as well
as our system of transporting food thousands of miles between the field and the end consumer.
Growing practices
The biggest culprit of fossil fuel usage in industrial farming is not transporting food or fueling
machinery; it is the production of chemicals for fertilizers. As much as 40% of energy used in
the food system goes towards the production of artificial fertilizers and pesticides.1 Fertilizers are
synthesized from atmospheric nitrogen and natural gas, a process that takes a significant amount
of energy. Producing and distributing them requires an average of 5.5 gallons of fossil fuels per
acre.3
.....
Packaging, processing, and storing food
Approximately 23% of the energy used in our food production system is allocated to processing
and packaging food.4 Another 32% is burned in home refrigeration and cooking.4 While no study
has quantified the potential energy savings of buying locally, the practice of eating whole foods
generally decreases the use of fossil fuels for processing, packaging, and storing foods. For
example, compare all the energy and packaging behind a can of tomato sauce to simply buying
some tomatoes, basil, and garlic, and making it oneself.
Food transportation
As a result of industrial farming, our food is increasingly grown in concentration in specific areas
of the country. This is so common that it has shaped much of our country’s geographic
identities—the western Plains are wheat country, the Midwest is the Corn Belt—but it has
reached extremes. For instance, approximately 90% of all the fresh vegetables consumed in the
United States are grown in California’s San Joaquin Valley.3
This national-scale system is possible only because it uses large quantities of fossil fuels to
transport food products to the consumer. It is now common practice to ship food not just around
the country, but around the world. As a result, the average American food travels an estimated
1,500 miles before being consumed.1
Energy inputs in the food production system5
The three main purposes for which oil is used worldwide are food, transport, and heating.
Agriculture is almost entirely dependent on reliable supplies of oil for cultivation and for
pumping water, and on gas for its fertilizers. For every calorie of energy used by agriculture
itself, five more are used for processing, storage and distribution.
 Oil refined for gasoline and diesel is critical to run the tractors, combines and other farm
vehicles and equipment that plant, spray the herbicides and pesticides, as well as harvest
and transport food and seed
Food processors rely on the just-in-time (gasoline-based) delivery of fresh or
refrigerated food

Food processors rely on the production and delivery of food additives, including
vitamins and minerals, emulsifiers, preservatives, coloring agents, etc. Many are oil-
based. Delivery is oil-based.
Food processors rely on the production and delivery of boxes, metal cans, printed paper
labels, plastic trays, cellophane for microwave/convenience foods, glass jars, plastic and
metal lids with sealing compounds. Many of these are essentially oil-based.
Delivery of finished food products to distribution centers in refrigerated trucks. Oil-
based, daily, just-in-time shipment of food to grocery stores, restaurants, hospitals,
schools, etc., all oil-based; customer drives to grocery store to shop for supplies, often
several times a week
Uh, oh.
Looks like food production and distribution is a lot more complex than the cost of a sack of potatoes being driven on a truck.

10 Calories in, 1 Calorie Out - The Energy We Spend on Food
 
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bintananth

behind a desk
Yeah, if you can use civilized measuring systems, that would be great.
I prefer to use American customary units. I do not use French metric bullshit unless I absolutely have to and do convert between measurement systems with ease.

My height is damn near exactly six nano light-seconds if that's the measurement system you wish to use.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Uh, oh.
Looks like food production and distribution is a lot more complex than the cost of a sack of potatoes being driven on a truck.

10 Calories in, 1 Calorie Out - The Energy We Spend on Food
Funny, from sticking to your idiotic statement that it takes 10:1 calories to ship food, you have backtracked that it takes that much to produce, process, store *and* ship the food :D
And even that figure, considering that it's not referring to specific foods, is most likely skewed by luxury foods people don't need for their calories, like lettuce and heated greenhouse out of season tomatoes.
You could just admit that you have conjured the figure out of poorly understood statement in a book and not doing own research to check instead of attempting a bait and switch here.
But then again, it would be humiliating to be so wrong while calling people morons in process of your DOOMDOOMDOOMing.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Funny, from sticking to your idiotic statement that it takes 10:1 calories to ship food, you have backtracked that it takes that much to produce, process, store *and* ship the food :D
And even that figure, considering that it's not referring to specific foods, is most likely skewed by luxury foods people don't need for their calories, like lettuce and heated greenhouse out of season tomatoes.
You could just admit that you have conjured the figure out of poorly understood statement in a book and not doing own research to check instead of attempting a bait and switch here.
But then again, it would be humiliating to be so wrong while calling people morons in process of your DOOMDOOMDOOMing.
Keep reeing and making pathetic attempts at lawyering, that is all you are good at.
The USA has to burn over 10 calories for every single calorie that is consumed, add wasted food and the situation gets worse.
A far cry from your little nonsense about trucks.
I have cited multiple sources, you have nothing.
Now, back to your DumbAss circlejerk.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Keep reeing and making pathetic attempts at lawyering, that is all you are good at.
The USA has to burn over 10 calories for every single calorie that is consumed, add wasted food and the situation gets worse.
So consumed, produced\processed\shipped in total (which would include waste), or just for shipping it? :D
If you are going to sling figures like that you need to make up your mind as to what these figures are supposed to be for.
Since it takes double digit calories in energy to ship single digit calories in food to end consumers in the USA that "free" meal might also be affected severely.
A far cry from your little nonsense about trucks.
I have cited multiple sources, you have nothing.
Now, back to your DumbAss circlejerk.
Guess i'm disrupting your DOOM! circlejerk, sorry but not sorry.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!

Ok, dude. 😂
Keep spamming derails and butthurt you are entertaining, pathetic but entertaining.
I have dealt with even bigger coping lawyers and opinionated crybabies before you, you are decidedly 'weak beer' bronekokoshka.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
And seems like you have a rather limited pool of memes to post when you get caught doing a stupid too.
Pffttt, as if I'd spend anything but the minimal amount of time on your nonsense.
You ain't worth the squeeze.
 

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