PC Gaming Doom is Eternal

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
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Obozny
I only started playing the original DOOM a few days ago, but I think this has to do with how Doomguy is a Memetic Badass and they wanted to show how much of one he is

I think that's the idea, the problem is that badassry loses something when the reason the slayer is so successful when he's just so much better than anyone else could ever be. Since you bring up goblin slayer, would goblin slayer be as intresting of a character if he had loads of magic powers and gear, was superhumanly strong, and could just easily 1 v 1 even the biggest, toughest goblins in a straight fight without effort?
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
I think that's the idea, the problem is that badassry loses something when the reason the slayer is so successful when he's just so much better than anyone else could ever be. Since you bring up goblin slayer, would goblin slayer be as intresting of a character if he had loads of magic powers and gear, was superhumanly strong, and could just easily 1 v 1 even the biggest, toughest goblins in a straight fight without effort?

Less without effort, but I’d expect something closer to how Guts and other melee oriented fantasy characters can end up extremely bloodied or injured or even a non-magical soulsborne MC fighting

Thing is, I tend to see Memetic Goblin Slayer-Badass types fail to realise that GS is NOT that sort of “Badass Normal”

As in, he’s NOT so good with actual Fighting Skills(melee & ranged)ESPECIALLY against stronger/faster/durable opponents and even SKILLED opponents.

Yeah, he can easily slaughter large numbers of small goblins, but turns out from the series so long as they’re not caught by surprise almost everybody else can too without being even Silver class(before being overwhelmed)

Anything higher than those small mooks needs planning and/or improvisation rather than an actual duel
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
For ceremonial armor it works. But for actual service boob armour like that is inpractical and sort of shot trap, where cold steel weapons can transfer the full energy of the blow/thrust. A singular bulge without dangerous corners is much better.
But since this fiction we are talking about the rule of cool/lewd trumps all.
Sorry to resurrect an old post but
"shot trap"
this would matter if it was tank armor.
Assuming the armor isnt skin tight, i.e. assuming the breasts on the outside are not actually lining up to the breasts on the inside, it wouldnt make any real difference when struck.
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
I think that Doom really needs to decide how powerful Doomguy is, because while anyone with a brainstem can accept a disconnect between gameplay and "lore", when the Lore is saying "you effortlessly slaughtered your way through armies of boss monsters unarmed, and now you're even stronger, you have literally never been harmed or challenged even once" and the gameplay has you struggling your way to well earned victories against handfulls of demons, it just disconnects you from the story entirely.


Like, you have a guy who thinks it's worthwhile to use pistols, shotguns, and assault rifles that are not outrageously out of line with real world guns, but then he fires himself out of a railgun through a building without a care in the world and is described as so strong that a bag of rocks would be a more efficient ranged weapon for him than a shotgun.
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
Less without effort, but I’d expect something closer to how Guts and other melee oriented fantasy characters can end up extremely bloodied or injured or even a non-magical soulsborne MC fighting
Thing is, I tend to see Memetic Goblin Slayer-Badass types fail to realise that GS is NOT that sort of “Badass Normal”
As in, he’s NOT so good with actual Fighting Skills(melee & ranged)ESPECIALLY against stronger/faster/durable opponents and even SKILLED opponents.
Yeah, he can easily slaughter large numbers of small goblins, but turns out from the series so long as they’re not caught by surprise almost everybody else can too without being even Silver class(before being overwhelmed)
Anything higher than those small mooks needs planning and/or improvisation rather than an actual duel
I suspect he'd still win thanks to "muh competence" as he's portrayed as one of the only people in the setting who isnt a complete brainlet.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sadness...



Less Fire Emblem. More Doom Guy. Or they'll lose him to Animal Crossing. :cry::p
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
I think that Doom really needs to decide how powerful Doomguy is, because while anyone with a brainstem can accept a disconnect between gameplay and "lore", when the Lore is saying "you effortlessly slaughtered your way through armies of boss monsters unarmed, and now you're even stronger, you have literally never been harmed or challenged even once" and the gameplay has you struggling your way to well earned victories against handfulls of demons, it just disconnects you from the story entirely.
The thing is that his power is described as an inexhaustible will. In doom 2016 he is described as having chosen the path of eternal torment.

The lore isn't that he effortlessly slaughters his way through armies, its that he struggles through everything and no matter how close you wear him down to the line, he never stops.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
There's also the doom slayer as a character. Eternal really crystallized something that 2016 had started. In Doom 1 through 3, you were just a guy. Maybe a more stubborn, lucky, skilled, or iron willed guy than average, but still at core just a regular guy. Anyone could have been doomguy. The Doom Slayer is not just a guy. The Doom slayer doesn't save the world because he's just lucky, because he's more experienced, because he was the right man in the right place at the right time. The Slayer saves the world because he's just flat out better than anyone else, because he has super armor and super weapons and VEGA and a doom fortress and superpowers and access to all this stuff that no one else has. In 2016, you could go "eh, they had those elite guards, and they had all these weapons, and they just got sucker punched, if they'd had a bit more time to reorganize, maybe they could have won without you". In Doom Eternal, you are the only person that could possibly save the earth, the best that regular people can do is not die while you do all the work. And there's something....off about that narrative.
Doomguy has always been able to carry more weapons and ammunition that any human being could ever realistically carry; not sure how you could call someone like that "just a guy". His appeal has never been that anyone could be him, it was that fact that playing as him made you feel like you were an action movie hero; the one guy who was strong and skilled enough to survive and take the fight to the demons.
 

Husky_Khan

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Doom guy taking on small numbers of demons or whatever isn't too concerning to me when compared to the lore. That's pretty much standard with most heroes and the like on their level such as Kratos or whatever. They take on small groups of random mooks and then engage in epic monster encounters and are constantly described as unstoppable awesomesauceness. Not everything can be awesome foe filled valleys like Serious Sam. :sneaky:

The thing is that his power is described as an inexhaustible will. In doom 2016 he is described as having chosen the path of eternal torment.

The lore isn't that he effortlessly slaughters his way through armies, its that he struggles through everything and no matter how close you wear him down to the line, he never stops.

Yeah it basically seems like the lore Doom Slayer is basically doing a game equivalent of a Nightmare run through Hell's Legions without dying. He's being challenged and pressed in every battle but he still manages to come out on top, whether he wins by an inch or a mile. So yeah, not like a Superman, just an epic level super soldier. The fact his Praetor Suit is nigh invulnerable magitech according to Lore helps, even if he is still "Human" underneath it all, can probably help with the more esoteric elements of his longevity like when he was entombed for so long.
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
Doomguy has always been able to carry more weapons and ammunition that any human being could ever realistically carry; not sure how you could call someone like that "just a guy".

I'm not talking about gameplay logic, I'm talking about how the game presents him. Classic doomguy was not presented as being a blatantly superhuman death machine who's head and shoulders above everyone else in the settings. The doom slayer is.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
I'm not talking about gameplay logic, I'm talking about how the game presents him. Classic doomguy was not presented as being a blatantly superhuman death machine who's head and shoulders above everyone else in the settings. The doom slayer is.
"Story in a game is like a story in a porn movie. It's expected to be there, but it's not that important." - John Carmack, Co-founder of id Software

Classic Doomguy was almost never presented as anything other than a vehicle for the gameplay. And even the few times a half-assed attempt at presenting a story was made, at no point was Doomguy ever portrayed in the way you're insisting he was in the first two games.

Now, you might have a point if we were just talking about Doom 3; in that game, they did try to make your character come across as just a regular person. Unfortunately, it was that very attempt that made the game so disliked amongst fans of the previous games. Can you really blame the people behind Doom 2016 for wanting to go with a completely different direction for their game?
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
I'm not talking about gameplay logic, I'm talking about how the game presents him. Classic doomguy was not presented as being a blatantly superhuman death machine who's head and shoulders above everyone else in the settings. The doom slayer is.
The Doomslayer is the classic doomguy after spending countless years in hell. There is an element of growth over time here.
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
Classic Doomguy was almost never presented as anything other than a vehicle for the gameplay. And even the few times a half-assed attempt at presenting a story was made, at no point was Doomguy ever portrayed in the way you're insisting he was in the first two games.

Ok, so how was he portrayed, then? As far as I know, the text interludes every few levels paint him as, while badass, violent, and enraged, as still just a regular human.

Now, you might have a point if we were just talking about Doom 3; in that game, they did try to make your character come across as just a regular person. Unfortunately, it was that very attempt that made the game so disliked amongst fans of the previous games. Can you really blame the people behind Doom 2016 for wanting to go with a completely different direction for their game?

As I understand the issues with Doom 3, the characterization of the PC was not the biggest issue that people had with it. When I've seen complaint, issues with lighting, gameplay pace, lighting, weapon design, amd lighting come up far more often than the characterization of the PC.

The Doomslayer is the classic doomguy after spending countless years in hell. There is an element of growth over time here.

I am aware of that, but I don't think it changes my point. If the Slayer was only remarkable because he was just extremely experienced rather than being a superhuman killing machine, I think I would view him more favorably.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
Ok, so how was he portrayed, then? As far as I know, the text interludes every few levels paint him as, while badass, violent, and enraged, as still just a regular human.
Like an action hero, in the vein of characters portrayed by Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sylvester Stallone; someone who could kill thousands of enemies, without getting a single scratch on him.
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
The thing is that his power is described as an inexhaustible will. In doom 2016 he is described as having chosen the path of eternal torment.

The lore isn't that he effortlessly slaughters his way through armies, its that he struggles through everything and no matter how close you wear him down to the line, he never stops.
The problem is you cant have statements like "Then he instantly fucked an entire army to death, and beat a giant into smithereens, just like the dozens of armies and giants that tried before" and "No known force to a space age civilization can even put a millimeter crack in the weakest part of his armor" and then pretend he's having a guts-like struggle against every new enemy. Either the demons were completely helpless against him no matter how ridiculously they stacked the engagement and could only imprison him like some kind of Godzilla god monster (what they literally admit to) or his fights against squads of barons and imps are like, really hard, man, and it's a good thing he has his guns.

Basically, it was a mistake to have both the demons and the scientists, in lore, talk about him like he's literally invincible, like no matter how much they pile on, no matter what they try, they see zero impact and feel completely helpless to even do him harm let alone kill him.
 

Guardian Box

Radioactive Cognitohazard
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So you haven't played it then.

For example, the new system where you can cripple monsters by targetting key weak points to disable their weapons. That's pretty cool. What's perhaps not so cool is it's not so much a "can" do as it is a "must", because if you don't shoot the tail off every arachnotron, the flamethrower off of every mancubus, etc, they'll wreck you in short order
Absolute nonsense. You can dodge the arachnotron's guns and wear it down from a distance, redeploy to a different part of the combat arena to focus on another threat, break line of sight, or just get really close so the gun can't track you, and kite that fucker down. Or ice blast him.

The mancubus? You can easily fight it normally from a distance. The flamethrower only comes into play when you get too close, and even then you can ice blast him, and every other enemy, so you could unload all the guns you want from point blank. There are other weapons to stagger enemies, as well as the blood punch.

You do not have to target the weak points on monster, but you can if you like precision shooting.

I prefer dashing, dodging and repositioning, so I very rarely felt the need for precision shooting like that, just redeply and unload all my guns from a different spot.

Finished the game on Ultra-Violence Extra Life Mode with over 40 lives to spare. It may be possible that Nightmare difficulty requires precision shooting like that, but for anything less than the hardest difficulty, you absolutely do not need to targed weak spots.

The same thing comes up with the ammo/armor/health system. Ammo particularly, because now that the chainsaw basically has infinite fuel, getting more ammo is just a chore now. You have effectively unlimited ammo, you just have to push a button every once in a while to maintain it. It starts feeling really, really regimented and managed, which is ironic for a game that's trying to get away from the modern shooter system of highly regulated, samey combat.
It's the exact opposite. Normally you'd find one gun you like and just use that thorough the game. Low ammo count forces the player to use different weapons in a frantic firefight. A chainsawable enemy isn't always on hand, so you may need to use a weapon you aren't that comfortable with, and get used to it quickly if you want to survive the encounter.

In Doom 2016, at later parts of it, you had enough ammo for everything in a single fight and you could just circlestrafe around the arena and never run out. Sure, you needed to get stuck in to replenish health (and ammo from time to time), but in Eternal it's much more pronounced. You need to be aware of the battlefield, figure out where the easy targets are to chainsaw, which ones to avoid (like a mancubus), and plot your route to the walking ammo-pack on the fly, and maybe freeze the problematic enemies for a few moments with your ice grenade, or pull yourself to them with your supashooty. When out of ammo you need to dash, jump, and weave around the battlefield like a butterfly to get to the ammo that will make you sting like a nuclear bee.

It gets the player into the thick of the action much better than 2016 ever did (and 2016 was already fucking amazing at doing that)

The gameplay also keeps escalating, and I'm not sure how long the franchise can maintain that. Doom Eternal's combat is even more frantic and fast paced than 2016 in general. It starts out more intense and peaks higher, and adds more and more stuff. In 2016, you had to manage just the combat, your weapons, your ammo, and maybe your grenades but people tend to not use those because you have that on your shotgun and it's way better. In Eternal, you have all that, plus more intense combat, plus having to do some precision shooting mid combat, plus your dash, plus your shoulder gun which is now key to the health/armor system, plus your blood punch. It's borderline too much, and I can't imagine they can go up from here because then it will be too much.
That's actually a valid concern.

To which I reply that at least the player is using those. I never bothered with grenades in 2016, and not much in Eternal at the start, but now I consider them essential.

Let's wait with how will ID resolve this in the hypothetical sequel when we actually get to play that.
 

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