Discussing Communism

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Deleted member 88

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There is nothing that has done to make evil people act like civilized men than capitalism. The one lesson of utilitarianism is that capitalism is the best environment to make evil act in a way that resembles good.

Also, a majority of problmes that are blamed on capitalism are actually the result of governments or other violent actors disrupting capitalism by coercing actions. For example, the Love Canal disaster was the result of a local government forcing a private company to sell a toxic waste dump. The capitalists that originally owned the toxic waste dump did everythign in their power to prevent people from being harmed by toxic waste. It was the government beurocrats that were fully responsible for the harm done and even more dispicably used their power to pass the blame.
That’s just not true. We have two hundred years of history, and the destruction of capitalism.

Look at the massacres of striking workers, the environmental damage, the sheer contempt for human flourishing.

Your defending a system dude, that sees you as a resource to be expended and then thrown out.
 

absenceofmalice

Well-known member
Temporarily Banned
You get all that and so much more before it so that means nothing. It's like you have someone who's on fire and being stabbed and you get rid of the one stabbing him and he says your help made things worse because he's on fire now and he just pretends he wasnt on fire before or getting stabbed. Thats the argument here.
 

Basileus_Komnenos

Imperator Romanorum Βασιλεύς των Ρωμαίων
Communism is big gay.

I have spoken.
Meanwhile in Eastern Europe during the 90's....

Son always remember dying and Communism are gay.

based on this meme:


That’s just not true. We have two hundred years of history, and the destruction of capitalism.
Two hundred years of history? History of what? For most of those two centuries, at least in terms of US history, Capitalism was the main force responsible for the US's meteoric rise and expansion into an economic and military power. This was facilitated by strong governmental institutions.

the environmental damage
That's unfortunately a natural consequence of industrialization. Though thankfully through capitalism rather than heavy government initiated programs, we're better able to find more environmentally sound energy sources. Keep in mind that developing nations like China or India with their large populations, are doing what took the west over a century, in the span of a few decades.

the sheer contempt for human flourishing.
I think you mean contempt for human suffering.

Your defending a system dude, that sees you as a resource to be expended and then thrown out.
Um could you clarify this. I feel like there's a lot of nuance that you're missing here.

Capitalism has defeated starvation and created a society with a hundred times the economic mobility of any state that ever existed.
Its been the greatest uplifting force for people in developing countries out of poverty. Going back to India where my family is from, is a vastly richer and more developed place than it was in the 70's when my parents were kids. Back then India with its quasi socialist policies stunted its own economic growth. The old village where my Dad grew up now has reliable electricity and proper roads/infrastructure with more of a middle class lifestyle becoming more accessible to people.

This was literally how China managed to slowly build itself back up from its low state into what it is today.

It’s creative destruction yes, but it is one of the most damaging things to Man spiritually, socially, and psychologically that ever existed.
No not really. At its most basic and fundamental principle, its essentially the Biblical quote: "He who shall not work, neither shall he eat."
 
D

Deleted member 88

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Two hundred years of history? History of what? For most of those two centuries, at least in terms of US history, Capitalism was the main force responsible for the US's meteoric rise and expansion into an economic and military power. This was facilitated by strong governmental institutions.
I’m super tired at the moment. But let’s see. Let’s talk about every industrial accident, every incident where workers were exploited in company towns, every time tenement housing collapsed, let’s talk about living conditions in 19th century working class England, or modern day Indian textile factories. That doesn’t begin to include the environmental damage, the cultural debasement, and the psychological effects-including messing up natural human sleep cycles.

I think you mean contempt for human suffering.
Read any articles today about how too much life in the life work balance is bad. A good employee today is one that literally has no life outside the company, and whose whole identity is built around it.

Um could you clarify this. I feel like there's a lot of nuance that you're missing here.
Fundamentally there is no innate value to human life in capitalism-beyond the ability to work. And even then, you aren’t valued. Man’s social being, his spiritual being, his intellectual being-all these things are degraded and utterly ruined by the grind and rat race of capitalism.

*I believe Capital needs to be regulated, the machine of Capitalism needs to serve Man, Man doesn’t serve it.
 

Abhorsen

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I’m super tired at the moment. But let’s see. Let’s talk about every industrial accident, every incident where workers were exploited in company towns, every time tenement housing collapsed, let’s talk about living conditions in 19th century working class England, or modern day Indian textile factories. That doesn’t begin to include the environmental damage, the cultural debasement, and the psychological effects-including messing up natural human sleep cycles.
... But workers have always been exploited. How do you think serfs were treated before capitalism? What about under communism? And if you are looking for environmental damage, look no further than the Aral Sea. Oh, wait, you can't see it anymore, because its gone, thanks to communism.

And you talk about negative psychological effects, but have you heard of the negative effects of starvation? And what stopped this across the world? Capitalism.
 

absenceofmalice

Well-known member
Temporarily Banned
I’m super tired at the moment. But let’s see. Let’s talk about every industrial accident, every incident where workers were exploited in company towns, every time tenement housing collapsed, let’s talk about living conditions in 19th century working class England, or modern day Indian textile factories. That doesn’t begin to include the environmental damage, the cultural debasement, and the psychological effects-including messing up natural human sleep cycles.
Sure you got beaten to death building pharaoh's tomb but hey at least you diddnt get paid for it thank goodness you might have lost sleep deciding how to spend that money.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
Sure you got beaten to death building pharaoh's tomb but hey at least you diddnt get paid for it thank goodness you might have lost sleep deciding how to spend that money.

As I understand it, workers's wages and living standards went up after the Industrial Revolution. It's almost like living standards are heavily dependent on technological progression...
 

Basileus_Komnenos

Imperator Romanorum Βασιλεύς των Ρωμαίων
*I believe Capital needs to be regulated, the machine of Capitalism needs to serve Man, Man doesn’t serve it.
Of all the places we disagree, I feel like we've found some common ground here. I agree with you on this point which is why I'm not an anarcho-capitalist. Capitalism on its own won't discourage human ambition, greed, or pure selfishness. This is why we have actual laws and regulations in place to help ensure market fairness so that the "invisible hand of market forces" can actually operate. This was how the US has historically taken down monopolies and regulated the quality of goods/services.

In our modern society, technology has far outpaced legislation, and as such many companies that grew in the 90's and early 2000's are now monopolizing their section of the market. We have laws in place to prevent this, but these laws were written well before something like the internet was even theorized. Even worse, most of our legislators in the US are old and thus completely out of touch when it comes to the reality of the situation.

let’s talk about living conditions in 19th century working class England,
The whole reason it got so bad was because so many people were fleeing life as peasant farmers to go into the cities. As such the supply of affordable housing was not even nearly enough to satisfy demand. This led to cramped cities. And in the early/mid 19th Century before proper sanitation was a thing, this led to disease spreading.

However once these problems were recognized we went to work trying to solve them and alleviating these conditions. And considering where we now, I'd say Capitalism has overall been a net positive with social stratification being very reduced from where it was 200 years ago.

Read any articles today about how too much life in the life work balance is bad. A good employee today is one that literally has no life outside the company, and whose whole identity is built around it.
This is pretty much your opinion rather than anything really objective. I'm sure for every dissatisfied company employee, there are probably hundreds of thousands of other corporate employees perfectly content with how they are living. The people dissatisfied are often a very vocal minority of people.

Besides, if not capitalism, what sort of economic system would you prefer? Before capitalism we had what was essentially serfdom and no-one wants to go back to that (well except for some crazies who want a "Great Reset").

Fundamentally there is no innate value to human life in capitalism-beyond the ability to work. And even then, you aren’t valued.
Again these are opinions. I mean there are millions of people perfectly content with their own professions.

Man’s social being, his spiritual being, his intellectual being-all these things are degraded and utterly ruined by the grind and rat race of capitalism.
I mean company culture can't really be blamed on Capitalism. Besides over time news will get out about how bad it is to work for a certain company which will see it lose out on potential new hires and thus profits. This would motivate even the shallowest of companies to change their ways.

As I understand it, workers's wages and living standards went up after the Industrial Revolution. It's almost like living standards are heavily dependent on technological progression...
Exactly! John D. Rockefeller whose net worth adjusted for inflation today is over $400 billion, would be utterly marveled by our world today. Rockefeller who grew up poor in the 19th century would be astounded well poor people in the 21st century live compared to those in his time (he died in 1937). From his point of view people today live like Kings with access to cars, heating/cooling, running water, etc.

As opulent as Louis XIV and his court was, he'd be envious of us today. For all the grandeur of his court in Versailles, he didn't have actual plumbing in it which meant he wined and dined in a foul smelling palace. Louis XIV late in life nearly died from various infections because of the poor hygiene accompanying his own living accomodations.
 
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Deleted member 88

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Besides, if not capitalism, what sort of economic system would you prefer? Before capitalism we had what was essentially serfdom and no-one wants to go back to that (well except for some crazies who want a "Great Reset").
Heavy regulated and neutered capitalism. That is capitalism that can’t destroy forests or wetlands, can’t savage communities, and can’t demand more than is required from employees.

I think the problem here-is everyone is arguing from the implicit belief that the economic system is the end goal. “What brings the most GDP”. Is such a materialistic and outright degenerate view of how society ought to operate.

The machinery of the economy-should serve Man, not Man serving the Machine.
 
D

Deleted member 88

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You keep using the word "Capitalism" but I don't think you know what that word means.
I do know what the word means. Capitalism is an economic system built on the pursuit of profit. That is the function of every firm, every corporation, and every business. Modern capitalism is international, and is no longer based on any sort of mercantilist restrictions, due to free trade around the world.
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
Capitalism is an economic system built on the pursuit of profit.
So no, you do not: Economies are the subset of human behavior based on the pursuit of profit.

Capitalism is an economic system based on the voluntary exchange of goods and services.

Colonial-Mercantilism, slavery, serfdom, and palace economies are all distinct from the capitalist system because they use coercion.
 

absenceofmalice

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That is capitalism that can’t destroy forests or wetlands
Forests worldwide have made a comeback of goofy proportions because of companies looking to long term investment rather than short money. Guess what kinds of economies are the only ones still destroying forests.

Heavy regulated and neutered capitalism.

oopsie doodles.
 

Abhorsen

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Arrggh. Dude, I’m well aware of libertarian shibboleths. They’re nonsense.
... no, they really aren't. Just pursuing profit does not capitalism make. A king demanding taxes from his nobles pursues profit. So does Mercantilism, slave labor, etc. None of those are Capitalism.

Capitalism is when private property is respected and trade is done freely.
 
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Deleted member 88

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Capitalism is when vulture fund parasites strip whole towns bare, capitalism is calls from your employer on vacation at 10:00 PM because that project is just so much more important than your family. Capitalism is Bernie Madoff, Charles Ponzi, and HSBNC banks laundering drug cartel money because hey-it boosts the bottom line.

Look-communism failed clearly. But it’s fallacious to say capitalism is not itself a highly destructive system.
 

Abhorsen

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Capitalism is when vulture fund parasites strip whole towns bare, capitalism is calls from your employer on vacation at 10:00 PM because that project is just so much more important than your family. Capitalism is Bernie Madoff, Charles Ponzi, and HSBNC banks laundering drug cartel money because hey-it boosts the bottom line.
Somebody is watching too much of Fox News' closet commie Tucker. Vulture capitalism? Thats a good thing, else when the company that was to be bought out died instead, no one would have a job. But instead, thanks to vulture capitalism, some of the employees keep their jobs.

Neither Madoff nor Ponzi were capitalists, as they didn't hold up their end of the bargain. Instead, they are great examples of why property rights need to be respected.

Meanwhile, capitalism is saving the environment. The percentage of land that is forested is increasing, because of more efficient ways to produce food, for example.
 
D

Deleted member 88

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Somebody is watching too much of Fox News' closet commie Tucker. Vulture capitalism? Thats a good thing, else when the company that was to be bought out died instead, no one would have a job. But instead, thanks to vulture capitalism, some of the employees keep their jobs.
Vulture fund capitalists have bought whole towns worth of industrial assets and companies then sold them for scraps. Leaving them devastated.

Are you familiar with the Pfizer family and the opioid crisis by chance? Capitalism is fucking killing the American heartland.

Neither Madoff nor Ponzi were capitalists, as they didn't hold up their end of the bargain. Instead, they are great examples of why property rights need to be respected.
Nothing in the capitalist system requires “holding up the end of the bargain”-that’s an issue of social trust and individual character. Cheating people is quite profitable so long as you don’t get caught or your too powerful or well protected for your victims to retaliate.

Meanwhile, capitalism is saving the environment. The percentage of land that is forested is increasing, because of more efficient ways to produce food, for example.
Are you paying attention? Species are going extinct, the Chinese are fucking hunting Jaguars, because there is a market for their superstitious retarded aphrodisiacs. Palm plantations are burning jungles in Indonesia, and fisheries worldwide are being depleted.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Neither Madoff nor Ponzi were capitalists, as they didn't hold up their end of the bargain. Instead, they are great examples of why property rights need to be respected.
Didn't mean to be rude and wanted to explain my Haha, it just really tickled me that your response was "That wasn't real capitalism." I don't think I've seen that one turned around before.
 

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