Military Debate: Is Conscription Moral?

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Because either its not, universally, just as all taxes aren't theft, or if slavery is defined so broadly we are all slaves, so whether its slavery or not is irrelevant.
Slavery has never been defined as "forced labor" except by Libertarians, much in the same way nobody else thinks taxation is theft and nobody else makes a distinction between negative and positive rights to justify why the rights they value are righter than the ones other people value. It's defined as one human owning another. That's why animals can't be slaves. It's also why, f'rex, Roman slaves were owned but their labor often wasn't, allowing them to earn their own money and buy themselves freedom and citizenship.

Thusly conscription is not slavery because soldiers are not property, it is a form of labor.
I didn't say "Justice". I said there was a cost to maintain society. There is work that must be done, in order to keep the society together and effective.

A lot of people aren't doing that, right now. A lot of people who tried have been punished for it. I was going to rant about the current "Justice" system, and why it's slowly falling apart, and why that's bad, but...... The problems are mach larger than that.


People have to feel that they are part of the system, and that the system might not be perfect, but it works, or they stop doing the work needed to keep it in existence.



None of this presumes that justice is anywhere but in our heads, but in most ways, so is civilization.








I think the only argument about that, whether conscription is not slavery, has to be rooted in the local culture, where it's accepted that conscription is something they do, and should, accept, leading to at least the vast majority being willing, thus not noncosenual.

However, that has flaws, in that there'll always be those who aren't willing. Might be a very small percentage, but still there.


So, slavery, yes. Please note, I don't see slavery as near as automatically bad as many do, I'm enough of a historian to understand the variations, exceptions, positives and negatives that make slavery vastly more flexible than most think.



One of the most powerful groups in Ye Olde China (for part of their history, anyway) were slaves, the Imperial Ecununchs. I'd have to check, but I'm pretty sure one of the later Roman Emperors was a former slave. There have been cases where the entire police force were slaves, and trusted as such.




Slavery, like justice, is a much bigger, more complex picture than most realise.
You keep repeating that it's slavery but you can't actually back that up, your definition of slavery is one that either you or some other Libertarian made up to support their point. This tendency you have to use straw definitions for words that mean something else to everybody else, invariably picking an emotionally charged word like slavery or theft in order to take the discussion away from the logical and towards the emotive, is why you keep getting accused of pedantry.

To examine this point we need merely look at Roman slaves, who were most assuredly slaves and yet routinely bought themselves out of slavery. How, if slavery was ownership of their labor, did they acquire money to do so? Simple, they were owned but their labor was still available to them and they could earn their manumission price over a period of years if they worked hard and invested wisely. Labor is not linked to slavery.

We see the same thing in Biblical times, there's specific instructions on how to proceed when a slave has earned enough money to buy their freedom, impossible if slavery is inseparable from the master owning the labor. Labor is not linked to slavery.

Slavery has nothing to do with labor, it's about the ownership of a human being.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
A) This duty is debatable (I disagree with it in such a broad statement), but more importantly b) you do not have the right to force another to do their duty. You can feel compelled to do it yourself, but forcing another to do it is evil.
Your position is bullshit.

Rights come with responsibilties. Responsibilities tend to be expensive.

Libertarians like you don't like getting the bill.
 
Thusly conscription is not slavery because soldiers are not property, it is a form of labor.

I think the Mental and physical statistics of vets after they return to society beg to differ. Soldiers may not be property in the technical and legal sense but they are certainly used and abused as such. Also, ask a conscience objector what happens when they try to politely decline or even compromise. Let's just say it would not surprise me if some that resisted the draft suffered "accidents."
 
Libertariarians like you don't like getting the bill.

to be fair you probably don't want us to get that bill. When the nonviolent people who want to keep to themselves are pushed to a breaking point all of those violent tendencies tend to spew out like an eruption. There is a reason why peasant revolts have left entire societies in ruins and rubble.

it's a case of be very careful what you wish for.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
I think the Mental and physical statistics of vets after they return to society beg to differ. Soldiers may not be property in the technical and legal sense but they are certainly used and abused as such. Also, ask a conscience objector what happens when they try to politely decline or even compromise. Let's just say it would not surprise me if some that resisted the draft suffered "accidents."
Harm does not equal slavery either, else it would have been slavery when I strained my back schlepping packages for UPS.

Now, that this harm means conscription is immoral, that's very much an argument worth having and honestly one I'd agree with. However calling it slavery is just the old communist/leftist trick of "ho ho, I redefined a [word you use] so that now thing you support is called [bad thing], you have to argue on my terms using my loaded words or else you support [bad thing]."

Words have meanings. Use them. The tendency to abuse word meanings is, I suspect, one reason so very many Libertarians become Socialists. Once you let newspeak and doublethink into the chat maintaining any actual standards becomes impossible as every word you use becomes racist, nazi, a dog whistle, sexist, etc. giving them free cheap emotional shots.
 
Harm does not equal slavery either, else it would have been slavery when I strained my back schlepping packages for UPS.

Now, that this harm means conscription is immoral, that's very much an argument worth having and honestly one I'd agree with. However calling it slavery is just the old communist/leftist trick of "ho ho, I redefined a [word you use] so that now thing you support is called [bad thing], you have to argue on my terms using my loaded words or else you support [bad thing]."

Words have meanings. Use them. The tendency to abuse word meanings is, I suspect, one reason so very many Libertarians become Socialists. Once you let newspeak and doublethink into the chat maintaining any actual standards becomes impossible as every word you use becomes racist, nazi, a dog whistle, sexist, etc. giving them free cheap emotional shots.

that's fair. I will say though that is what I mean by technically speaking vs practically speaking. small changes completely change a word it doesn't change the fact they essentially all lead down the same road. But...I will try to do better when it comes to word usage.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
Slavery has never been defined as "forced labor" except by Libertarians, much in the same way nobody else thinks taxation is theft and nobody else makes a distinction between negative and positive rights to justify why the rights they value are righter than the ones other people value. It's defined as one human owning another. That's why animals can't be slaves. It's also why, f'rex, Roman slaves were owned but their labor often wasn't, allowing them to earn their own money and buy themselves freedom and citizenship.
Animals can't be slaves because they aren't human. As for a human owning another, the way you've defined slavery excludes all modern day slavery.Trafficked people, for example, would not be slaves under your definition, as they are not considered property. Neither would child soldiers who are forced into their jobs such as the Lord's Resistance Army. What you refer to is a subtype of slavery known as chattel slavery.

Thusly conscription is not slavery because soldiers are not property, it is a form of labor.
Second, forced conscripts are effectively property (of the state, not an individual, but this has existed in the past as well) in all but name. They must do what their commanding officer says, do not have the freedom to leave, and did not consent to joining up but were taken against their will. They are treated like property, similar to state Eunuchs, Jannissaries, etc.


Your position is bullshit.

Rights come with responsibilties. Responsibilities tend to be expensive.

Libertarians like you don't like getting the bill.
You say without giving an argument, just a statement. First, no, I'm not abstaining all responsibilities here. I'm saying your overdramatic need to protect everyone around me is way beyond everyone's responsibility unless you want to go pure Singer. Second, the existence of a responsibility does not grant justification to force another to follow their responsibility.

I do my duty to the people around me that I know. I'm not obligated to provide housing to every homeless person I see because my apartment could fit 20 people with no room for moving around. But your statement demands that.
 
Last edited:

Simonbob

Well-known member
You keep repeating that it's slavery but you can't actually back that up, your definition of slavery is one that either you or some other Libertarian made up to support their point.
I used to be a Libertarian, I still have some thoughts that way. 'shrug'


What's your definition? For slavery, that is.


if the world is entirely grey then at that point what does anything matter? power becomes the end all be all and the only true law is "I can therefore I will."


There are lighter shades of grey, sure. We should be aiming that way.

But, nothing happens in a vacume. There are consequences, some immediate, some obvious, some both or neither. Just because we think something is better, doesn't mean it is.


As far as I'm concerned, we should look at what's happened, and try to work out why it happened. We should also not shy away from the conclusions we draw from it. Even if it's something you hate, if it's real, we must deal with the world as it it.


Then do at least a little bit to either keep it going in the right direction, or drag it that way. But the occasional re-evaluation is essential.
 

Bassoe

Well-known member
I can't wait to see how the propaganda machine spins deporting asylum seekers to their deaths into a pro-ukraine narrative.
 

TheRejectionist

TheRejectionist
I can't wait to see how the propaganda machine spins deporting asylum seekers to their deaths into a pro-ukraine narrative.

What the fuck? This is gonna end up badly as training Syrian refugees to fight Assad.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
I can't wait to see how the propaganda machine spins deporting asylum seekers to their deaths into a pro-ukraine narrative.

OMG, they are doing a draft in a defensive war that is effectively for independence if not survival as a nation, how scandalous!
Don't forget that some west aligned countries have such laws themselves (Finland, Greece, South Korea, Israel, Taiwan, Turkey) and a situation similar to Ukraine's is the most justifiable scenario for using draftees.
Also spare us the propaganda dramatics of "certain death" for Ukrainian draftees.

"Regarding the possible deportation of Ukrainian citizens by foreign states based on this point, I believe that a specific type of administrative penalty, which consists in offering a foreigner or a stateless person to voluntarily leave the country of residence, can be applied only to persons who maliciously violate the order of the country of their place of residence," - she said.



What is the punishment for refusing to return to Ukraine?


As lawyers note, the only measure of punishment can be administrative responsibility for failure to appear at the Military Commissariat in wartime during the effect of the Decree of the President of Ukraine "On Conducting Joint Mobilization" in the form of a fine in the amount of UAH 3,400-5,100.
So, don't break laws, don't get deported. If you want to simp for Russia and get deported for it, your own damn fault, should have fled to Russia, oh, wait, they would have drafted you too :D
Your concern for Ukrainian criminals is as touching as it is surprising.
What the fuck? This is gonna end up badly as training Syrian refugees to fight Assad.
You would think that any who would be this bad would have chosen Russia or a country friendly to it as their destination, unless they are giant hypocrites and in turn deserve to be deported anyway.
 

TheRejectionist

TheRejectionist
OMG, they are doing a draft in a defensive war that is effectively for independence if not survival as a nation, how scandalous!
Don't forget that some west aligned countries have such laws themselves (Finland, Greece, South Korea, Israel, Taiwan, Turkey) and a situation similar to Ukraine's is the most justifiable scenario for using draftees.
Also spare us the propaganda dramatics of "certain death" for Ukrainian draftees.


So, don't break laws, don't get deported. If you want to simp for Russia and get deported for it, your own damn fault, should have fled to Russia, oh, wait, they would have drafted you too :D
Your concern for Ukrainian criminals is as touching as it is surprising.

You would think that any who would be this bad would have chosen Russia or a country friendly to it as their destination, unless they are giant hypocrites and in turn deserve to be deported anyway.

Jesus fucking Christ Marduk you are of the utility of a condom with a hole and have funny-ness of a progressive. Do you actually do something with your life besides complain and be annoying? Or at least contribute something else to the forum besides being a keyboard lion?
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Jesus fucking Christ Marduk you are of the utility of a condom with a hole and have funny-ness of a progressive. Do you actually do something with your life besides complain and be annoying? Or at least contribute something else to the forum besides being a keyboard lion?
What kind of weird question is that? Are you sure it is any of your business?
Do you?
Well someone has to criticize your idiotic takes, and i mod here anyway, so...

Do you do something with your life between trying to maintain plausible deniability between being a totally not leftist hippie with all the stupidity and treasonous tendency hiding behind that and an outright Russia simp at the keyboard on a 2k member internet forum?
Make your choice and either join the proper ideological descendants of the pacifists with the far left progressives (they whine about establishment being "warlike" against Russia too), or very much warlike Russian imperialists who prefer being keyboard rabid dogs on crack instead.
 

TheRejectionist

TheRejectionist
What kind of weird question is that? Are you sure it is any of your business?
Do you?
Well someone has to criticize your idiotic takes, and i mod here anyway, so...

Do you do something with your life between trying to maintain plausible deniability between being a totally not leftist hippie with all the stupidity and treasonous tendency hiding behind that and an outright Russia simp at the keyboard on a 2k member internet forum?
Make your choice and either join the proper ideological descendants of the pacifists with the far left progressives (they whine about establishment being "warlike" against Russia too), or very much warlike Russian imperialists who prefer being keyboard rabid dogs on crack instead.


Delirious and antagonistic as always I see.
Looking at your profile history it seems you contribute only at quickly typing angrily.
I don't have to make a choice and don't feel I need to and there is only one rabid dog on crack but has very lack of self awareness when affirming others are such and as already steeped as low as the mods of SpaceBattles, Sufficient Velocity and AlternateHistory combined for lack of brain usage.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Delirious and antagonistic as always I see.
Looking at your profile history it seems you contribute only at quickly typing angrily.
I don't have to make a choice and don't feel I need to and there is only one rabid dog on crack but has very lack of self awareness when affirming others are such and as already steeped as low as the mods of SpaceBattles, Sufficient Velocity and AlternateHistory combined for lack of brain usage.
Well guess maladies like selective blindness (or pathological inability to use the search function, truly a plague of the internet) are a thing. Still better than shilling for the enemies of the West.

Then again, you are a self-proclaimed "national leftist", and if leftists agreed with my opinions much i may start wondering if i got something wrong.
 

Sergeant Foley

Well-known member
The thing is, the people who call for constription are often too old or too crippled to answer a call for volunteers.

I'm a 44yr old who is missing a toe. My dad is 76. While we both know how to use a rifle - and could teach you how to use one - either one of us would be a complete "please shoot us" liabilty if sent to the front lines while an 18yr old who doesn't know his ass from his elbow and barely got through basic is not a liability.
My father, uncles, cousins, etc., were drafted or enlisted.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
I can't wait to see how the propaganda machine spins deporting asylum seekers to their deaths into a pro-ukraine narrative.

I don’t see any propaganda about it. Like any sovereign nation, Ukraine has the right to require its citizens to serve.
 

49ersfootball

Well-known member
I'm sorry that happened.


Governments don't have rights. An individual person has rights.
Both sides of my family are very proud to have served in the US Armed Forces (Navy, Coast Guard, Marine Corps, Army, Air Force) including Army National Guard, Air National Guard & State Guard.

Plus they will do it again!

Korea also has requirements for their citizens to serve in the Republic of Korea Armed Forces. From what I'm hearing, the Philippines is planning on doing something similar as well.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top