Conservative vs Libertarian... Round One... DEBATE!

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
You know, looking through here is really making me wonder about some of the people here. Like a lot.

The reason whoring is traditionally seen as immoral is because intimacy with another human being is one of the most important facets of our nature. It's not something to be exchanged for something as base as money.


You can respond that whoring is never going to go away, and you're right. We'll never be able to eliminate it, but that doesn't mean we need to give it a dignity it doesn't deserve. Names are important.
Two things:
1) I believe in freedom (why do you hate it?)
2) I choose to use "sex worker" because it is an accurate, non-degrading term that encompasses a wide range of jobs.
 

Certified_Heterosexual

The Falklands are Serbian, you cowards.
Two things:
1) I believe in freedom (why do you hate it?)

I believe in freedom. However, the freedom to make an enormous mess of your life and ruin yourself and others is not a freedom worth protecting.

I believe in dignity (why do you have none?)

2) I choose to use "sex worker" because it is an accurate, non-degrading term that encompasses a wide range of jobs.

Imagine thinking that willingness to fuck and be fucked by random strangers is worthy of respect, rather than being a symptom of undiagnosed mental illness or past abuse.

Why do you want the state to become an enabler for abused teens instead of giving them mental health support?
 

GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
Imagine thinking that willingness to fuck and be fucked by random strangers is worthy of respect, rather than being a symptom of undiagnosed mental illness or past abuse.

Why do you want the state to become an enabler for abused teens instead of giving them mental health support?

I... What? There's exactly zero things wrong with wanting to fuck strangers. And I like it how the state fucking out of private citizens lives means that it's "enabling" things. It's not the state's business who is fucking who unless coercion is involved, period.
 

Certified_Heterosexual

The Falklands are Serbian, you cowards.
I... What? There's exactly zero things wrong with wanting to fuck strangers.

Aside from disease, abuse, drug addiction, single motherhood, social degradation, destroying your own ability to pair-bond...

And I like it how the state fucking out of private citizens lives means that it's "enabling" things.

I'm sorry if the literal definition of enabling offends you, but that's something you should take up with someone who cares. Enabling can be passive as well as active. If someone is about to shoot up with heroin and I don't physically restrain them from doing it, then I have enabled that person to become addicted to heroin. I have become an enabler.

But you probably think that I should have minded my own business, shouldn't I? Just like I should just mind my own business and allow my neighbor to fall into whoring.

What a warped, stunted conception of morality you libertarians have.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
I believe in freedom. However, the freedom to make an enormous mess of your life and ruin yourself and others is not a freedom worth protecting.
This is literally the most important freedom. Without it, communism is a short logical step away by imposing the morality that any work not for the state is ruining yourself and others.
 

Certified_Heterosexual

The Falklands are Serbian, you cowards.
This is literally the most important freedom. Without it, communism is a short logical step away by imposing the morality that any work not for the state is ruining yourself and others.

LoL glibertarians have been hyperventilating over enforcement of basic moral obligations on society being LITERAL COMMUNISM since day one, and it's never once been true.

Anything to cover up the fact that their ideology is blatant simping for billionaires--who, by the way, are almost monolithically far left. So much for personal independence, amirite?
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
LoL glibertarians have been hyperventilating over enforcement of basic moral obligations on society being LITERAL COMMUNISM since day one, and it's never once been true.

Anything to cover up the fact that their ideology is blatant simping for billionaires--who, by the way, are almost monolithically far left. So much for personal independence, amirite?
No. Because you don't understand what the left wants. The left wants legal control over you based on their morality, just like the right does. Allowing the principle to be established means that it can and will be used against you, especially given the right's record on the culture war (i.e. losing forever). Only libertarians seem to understand this for the trap that it is.
 

almostinsane

Well-known member
No. Because you don't understand what the left wants. The left wants legal control over you based on their morality, just like the right does. Allowing the principle to be established means that it can and will be used against you, especially given the right's record on the culture war (i.e. losing forever). Only libertarians seem to understand this for the trap that it is.

The longer I live, the more I cannot seem to escape this conclusion:

Libertarians have only accomplished any of their goals when they joined one of two major parties. Since the 80s, libertarians have been a major part of conservatism and have had influence in conservative policy. However, nowadays, libertarians are more concerned with fulfilling their hedonistic desires. Pursuing the freedom to have sex and drugs whenever and wherever you want has only succeeded in breaking down the family.

That has only justified more government intervention in the form of welfare and divorce court fuckery while our brave new marxists preach a new religion with our would-be-masters' blessing to compensate for the spiritual emptiness younger generations feel.

Humans will worship something. That is inevitable. You might not, but the majority of the population will. The current religion will be much more puritanical than any you've ever experienced.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Certified heterosexual is one of the relatively few examples in America what can be called 'authoritarian right.' Such individuals did use to be more common, but they waned over the 90's, and became more or less irrelevant over the 2000's.

For what actual conservatism teaches, it's similar to the morality that he expresses, but it absolutely does not embrace the government enforcing that.

I will try to persuade you of why promiscuity is wrong. I will try to persuade you of why 'for fun' drugs is wrong. I will try to persuade you of why all kinds of things are wrong. But so long as you are hurting yourself and not others, I will not try to get the government involved in that.

That is the conservative position. 'Libertarianism' is actually a native part of the conservative movement, as far as government policy goes. Where it diverges, is when you get libertarians who try to act like those hedonistic practices are good things.

What definitely needs to happen, is to stop using taxpayer money to subsidize people's self-destructive lifestyles. If someone chooses to destroy their lives, it is immoral to use force (taxes collected by force of law) to force other people to sustain those people in their destructive lifestyles.

There would be a lot of social self-correction if our nation stopped doing that.
 

GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
I'm sorry if the literal definition of enabling offends you, but that's something you should take up with someone who cares. Enabling can be passive as well as active. If someone is about to shoot up with heroin and I don't physically restrain them from doing it, then I have enabled that person to become addicted to heroin. I have become an enabler.

But you probably think that I should have minded my own business, shouldn't I? Just like I should just mind my own business and allow my neighbor to fall into whoring.

What a warped, stunted conception of morality you libertarians have.

I'm sorry if the literal definition of enabling offends you, but that's something you should take up with someone who cares. Enabling can be passive as well as active. If someone is about to offend a black person and I don't physically restrain them from doing it, then I have enabled that person to become a racist. I have become an enabler.

But you probably think that I should have minded my own business, shouldn't I? Just like I should just mind my own business and allow my neighbor to fall into Nazism.

What a warped, stunted conception of morality you libertarians have.

You are literally an SJW. Just rooting for a different football team.
 

GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
Certified heterosexual is one of the relatively few examples in America what can be called 'authoritarian right.' Such individuals did use to be more common, but they waned over the 90's, and became more or less irrelevant over the 2000's.

For what actual conservatism teaches, it's similar to the morality that he expresses, but it absolutely does not embrace the government enforcing that.

I will try to persuade you of why promiscuity is wrong. I will try to persuade you of why 'for fun' drugs is wrong. I will try to persuade you of why all kinds of things are wrong. But so long as you are hurting yourself and not others, I will not try to get the government involved in that.

That is the conservative position. 'Libertarianism' is actually a native part of the conservative movement, as far as government policy goes. Where it diverges, is when you get libertarians who try to act like those hedonistic practices are good things.

What definitely needs to happen, is to stop using taxpayer money to subsidize people's self-destructive lifestyles. If someone chooses to destroy their lives, it is immoral to use force (taxes collected by force of law) to force other people to sustain those people in their destructive lifestyles.

There would be a lot of social self-correction if our nation stopped doing that.
That's exactly why I'll respect you, despite our disagreements, but will forever consider Certified_Heterosexual and people like him as my enemies, exactly like the trash currently rioting on American streets, and their handlers.
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
I believe in freedom. However, the freedom to make an enormous mess of your life and ruin yourself and others is not a freedom worth protecting.
Freedom is always worth protecting. And someone making a mess out of their life is a consequence that they will have to deal with and is no business of yours. But for most of the sex industry, that isn't really much of an issue, except for the part that is currently illegal. Even that wouldn't be as much of a problem if it were legalized and those workers were given protections as in other forms of employment. Also if busybodies would pull their heads out of their asses.

I believe in dignity (why do you have none?)
I have plenty. I also don't hate freedom, even if it's for something I don't personally engage in.

Imagine thinking that willingness to fuck and be fucked by random strangers is worthy of respect, rather than being a symptom of undiagnosed mental illness or past abuse.
Imagine thinking that enjoying having sex was a symptom of mental illness or past abuse, yet also thinking that it's okay to heap abuse and condescension on people you think are mentally ill.

Why do you want the state to become an enabler for abused teens instead of giving them mental health support?
:lol: This rings pretty false in light of other things you've said, and nice touch there with the straw man about teens. But in any case, I feel that if selling is legal, and fucking is legal, than selling fucking should also be legal, as long as it only involves consenting adults, just like the rest of the sex industry.

Aside from disease, abuse, drug addiction, single motherhood, social degradation, destroying your own ability to pair-bond...
A lot of those would be mitigated by legalization, and requirements for testing, use of birth control, etc. (as in the porn industry). Social degradation is a figment of your imagination, though, and I hate to break it to you, but not everyone is cut out for marriage, and that's just fine.

But you probably think that I should have minded my own business, shouldn't I? Just like I should just mind my own business and allow my neighbor to fall into whoring.
Yes. Also, this is an example of what I mean when I say any time you express anything resembling concern over supposed mental illness or "past abuse" that it rings false. No, it's just about you being a judgemental asshole. :)

What a warped, stunted conception of morality you libertarians have.
Could say the same about you and the people who think like you. "Traditionalists" I suppose.
 
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Certified_Heterosexual

The Falklands are Serbian, you cowards.
That's exactly why I'll respect you, despite our disagreements, but will forever consider Certified_Heterosexual and people like him as my enemies, exactly like the trash currently rioting on American streets, and their handlers.

lol sure bro, having diametrically opposed visions for American society makes me and antifa totally the same, sure.

Libertarians rightly concede that one’s freedom must end at the point at which it starts to impinge upon another person’s, but they radically underestimate how easily this happens. So even if the libertarian principle of “an it harm none, do as thou wilt,” is true, it does not license the behavior libertarians claim. Consider prostitution, where this digression started: libertarians say it should be permitted because if someone doesn’t like it, he can choose not to purchase sex from one. But what he can’t do is choose not to live in a culture that has been vulgarized by it. One hears a similar argument for gay marriage: "I don't understand why straight people are against it, it's not like it affects them at all." But of course that's not true: enshrine homosexuality in the statute book and it becomes an accepted part of the public sphere, and you will come across it often. If you resent having orgy clubs and bondage gear shops pop up in your neighborhood, or having your kids propagandized with absurdly wise and sympathetic gay characters on TV, sorry but you're SOL.

The question of what does and does not constitute the proper boundaries of public morality is open to debate, but to the extent libertarians acknowledge that such a thing even exists they define it all the way down to murder and breaking contracts while ignoring everything else. It's not so much that everyone needs to be John Galt for libertarianism to work, as everyone needs to be shut-in nerds.

Libertarians aren't completely wrongheaded, and have some excellent arguments against censorship, bu they get far more wrong than right. My assessment of their failings is as follows:
  • their faith in unguided economic processes is naive
  • their skepticism of organized human behavior is dogmatic
  • their understanding of social behavior is almost nil
  • their understanding of social hierarchies is nil
  • their attention to risk and to second order effects is severely deficient
  • their understanding of political behavior is grossly deficient
  • their conception of morality is limited and inflexible
  • their understanding of entropy, decay, and fragility is severely deficient
  • they do not appear to understand non-economic drives
In addition to this, libertarians seem affected by innate mental problems:
  • their psychological development is stunted
  • they exhibit no loyalty outside immediate personal relationships
  • they are glib and argumentative
  • their personal tastes are crass and childish
  • they are hedonists
  • they appear to be completely lacking in genuine altruism
Everything libertarians say is distorted through this prism of shortcomings and defects, so that when a libertarian opens his mouth about regulations, what comes out is usually seriously wrong. Even the basic assumption that the primary obstacle to economic well-being is overregulation or other "inefficient" side effects of governance is based on erroneous thinking. I have never once seen a libertarian address the reality that as human activity scales up it requires more and more effort to put into order (hence regulation increases)—this absurdly obvious fact goes unmentioned, or if it is mentioned is immediately dismissed.

The libertarian usually assumes that without regulation (or most of it) we'd be living in the best of all possible worlds—he is a stupid modern day Candide. Libertarians love to cherry pick regulations or ignore context—I remember John Stossel pulling a stunt where he setup a lemonade stand in a city and then wouldn't let anyone buy lemonade because regulations forbade it. This was supposed to show the silliness of overregulation, but it only showed the silliness of Stossel.

Libertarians are mostly wrong, and proof of their failure is that despite overrepresentation in the media they are politically ineffective. They are incapable of advertising their ideology in ways that do not ultimately repulse most serious people. (More galling is that despite being anti-conservative, they are used to speak on behalf of conservatives.) They aren't even noble failures, they're just fools.
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
LoL glibertarians have been hyperventilating over enforcement of basic moral obligations on society being LITERAL COMMUNISM since day one, and it's never once been true.
Because it's true. The thing you and other traditionalists/conservative Christian busybodies/whatever you think of yourself as don't seem to realize is that there really isn't much difference between you and the sjw commies.

Anything to cover up the fact that their ideology is blatant simping for billionaires--who, by the way, are almost monolithically far left. So much for personal independence, amirite?
:LOL: You certainly have a strange way of seeing things.
 

Certified_Heterosexual

The Falklands are Serbian, you cowards.
Because it's true. The thing you and other traditionalists/conservative Christian busybodies/whatever you think of yourself as don't seem to realize is that there really isn't much difference between you and the sjw commies.

Except for our beliefs on the role of the state in human life, metaphysical presuppositions, opinions on religion, basic morality, physiognomy, distinctions between public and private, loyalty, etc...

I mean sure, if you cut out all our actual beliefs and focus instead on the fact that we don't have a pathological psychosexual hatred of the government, then sure, we're exactly the same! :ROFLMAO:

You have exactly the same methods. Horseshoe theory is real. Yes, you are the same, and yes, you are my enemy.

Tough talk, but that's all it is. Talk.

EDIT: Have you noticed that libertarianism has supplanted peacenik anti-corporate leftism as the go-to ideology for rebellious middle class teenagers? It's appealing to young people because the libertarian response to most social problems is "mind your own business," a mantra that's endlessly appealing to a generation taught that it's wrong to care how your neighbor behaves, because having standards is bigoted.

Libertarians scare me more than most liberals, to be honest. At least most liberals understand intuitively why unlimited immigration might potentially be a bad idea in theory, and most liberals aren't knotted up enough in their ideology to make an argument as disingenuous as "union busting is good for workers."
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
But what he can’t do is choose not to live in a culture that has been vulgarized by it.
This is literally something very similar to what a commie would say.

One hears a similar argument for gay marriage: "I don't understand why straight people are against it, it's not like it affects them at all." But of course that's not true: enshrine homosexuality in the statute book and it becomes an accepted part of the public sphere, and you will come across it often. If you resent having orgy clubs and bondage gear shops pop up in your neighborhood, or having your kids propagandized with absurdly wise and sympathetic gay characters on TV, sorry but you're SOL.
:rolleyes: Yeah, you are.

And I really care not about your views on libertarianism, any more than I do those of the SJWs.

The libertarian usually assumes that without regulation (or most of it) we'd be living in the best of all possible worlds—he is a stupid modern day Candide. Libertarians love to cherry pick regulations or ignore context—I remember John Stossel pulling a stunt where he setup a lemonade stand in a city and then wouldn't let anyone buy lemonade because regulations forbade it. This was supposed to show the silliness of overregulation, but it only showed the silliness of Stossel.
No, it illustrated overregulation quite well, and not only how it makes criminals out of people over the littlest things, but how it acts as a barrier of entry into the market.

Libertarians are mostly wrong, and proof of their failure is that despite overrepresentation in the media they are politically ineffective.
:LOL: In what fantasy world is libertarianism over-represented in media? AHahahahahahahaha!

ETA: Sorry, was writing this as you posted, Flintsteel.
 

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