Civil War & Ukraine War Article on Parallels/Anglo-French Intervention ACW

bintananth

behind a desk
A) Seek to inflict casualties sufficient to break the political will of their opponent. In this, we see further parallels; Lee's offensives in 1862-1862, in tandem with the Army of Tennessee's Heartland Offensive in 1862 particularly, were meant to degrade Northern morale but also seek to engender outside intervention by the Anglo-French. Ukraine's offensives since September can be viewed in the same light, in terms of seeking to trigger the collapse in political support for Putin's government.
Lee never managed to pull that off.

In the big battles the Confederate casualty numbers - while usually lower than the Union tally - were awful.

Confederate casualties with Lee in charge as a percentage:

The Seven Days: ~20%
Antietam: ~25%
Gettysburg: ~33%
The Overland Campaign: ~55%
 

History Learner

Well-known member
Lee never managed to pull that off.

In the big battles the Confederate casualty numbers - while usually lower than the Union tally - were awful.

Confederate casualties with Lee in charge as a percentage:

The Seven Days: ~20%
Antietam: ~25%
Gettysburg: ~33%
The Overland Campaign: ~55%

Given the Confederacy doesn't exist today, that should be obvious, and perhaps can serve as an idea of where the Ukraine War is probably headed. That he attempted it and came close to achieving it can explain why Ukraine went down a similar path in its own conflict. I don't want to get lost in the weeds, but you should know the Bonekemper school of thought isn't exactly accepted by mainstream Civil War historians even today.

There was no advanced weapon Europe could offer the CSA. The arms innovation was going on mostly in the Union. England was ahead on large ironclads, but giving them to the CSA would have been even more impossible than sending them to wage war directly on the Union. They were still building up minimum force numbers after La Gloire made their entire capital fleet obsolete.

This contrasts with the situation in Ukraine. NATO, not Russia has the technological advantage and is sending equipment that has been producing lopsided casualty rates in Ukraine's favor. As long as NATO is willing to keep providing that, direct intervention isn't necessary for Ukraine to win.

Except for the case of the Laird Rams Crisis in 1863 and the Armstrong guns that were used by the C.S.A. curtesy of the British against the Union. By the standards of their day, both were very much advanced weapons systems.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
Except for the case of the Laird Rams Crisis in 1863 and the Armstrong guns that were used by the C.S.A. curtesy of the British against the Union. By the standards of their day, both were very much advanced weapons systems.
The British stopped making the breech-loading Armstrong guns in 1864 because they had too many flaws.

Meanwhile the USN was mounting 11+" Dalghren guns in armoured turrets on barely seaworthy steam-powered iron rafts like USS Monitor and restricting them to solid shot and less than full powder charges because an explosive shell plus a full powder charge was considered to be way too dangerous to be called "sane".
 

History Learner

Well-known member
The British stopped making the breech-loading Armstrong guns in 1864 because they had too many flaws.

Actually, they stopped making them mostly because of cost reasons. That doesn't change, however, the original point that a rifled breech loading artillery piece was revolutionary in the 19th Century, particularly in the context of most artillery being muzzle loading smoothbores in the ACW.

Meanwhile the USN was mounting 11+" Dalghren guns in armoured turrets on barely seaworthy steam-powered iron rafts like USS Monitor and restricting them to solid shot and less than full powder charges because an explosive shell plus a full powder charge was considered to be way too dangerous to be called "sane".

Really have no idea what you're attempting to argue here, given the original point was about the comparisons of Anglo-French aid to the Confederacy and the modern Western support to Ukraine.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
Actually, they stopped making them mostly because of cost reasons. That doesn't change, however, the original point that a rifled breech loading artillery piece was revolutionary in the 19th Century, particularly in the context of most artillery being muzzle loading smoothbores in the ACW.
My great-great-great grandfather was part of the 17th Indiana. That regiment had breech-loading magazine-fed seven shot Spencers and was part of John T. Wilder's "Lightning Brigade".

Too expensive is bullshit because Wilder basically told Congress "If you won't pay for it I can and I will".
 

History Learner

Well-known member
My great-great-great grandfather was part of the 17th Indiana. That regiment had breech-loading magazine-fed seven shot Spencers and was part of John T. Wilder's "Lightning Brigade".

Too expensive is bullshit because Wilder basically told Congress "If you won't pay for it I can and I will".

For the cost of an RBL 7 inch gun, you could afford to buy roughly 50 Spencer Rifles; to further put that into context, off the top of my head only 5 to 10,000 were produced during the entire war. If someone would pay for it, how come the entire Union Army, rather than a few regiments, were not so equipped? Why didn't someone step up and fund acquisition of Seawolf attack submarines for a more modern comparison? Cost matters in military procurement and production, from then till now.

However, as I said, this is to get into a rather weird tangent that is not connected to the main point. The Anglo-French did materially support the Confederacy and did provide advanced capabilities for the time, same as the West is doing now for Ukraine, which is a pretty clear point of comparison.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
For the cost of an RBL 7 inch gun, you could afford to buy roughly 50 Spencer Rifles; to further put that into context, off the top of my head only 5 to 10,000 were produced during the entire war.
You're joking. Please tell me you're joking.

Approximately 200,000 Spencers were made and Wilder's "Lightning Brigade" would have needed at least 5,000 when at full strength.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
You're joking. Please tell me you're joking.

Approximately 200,000 Spencers were made and Wilder's "Lightning Brigade" would have needed at least 5,000 when at full strength.

Not at all, you seem to have confused contracts with actual production. 10,000 Spencers were ordered in 1861, but only 600 had been delivered by January of 1863. I have no idea where you are getting 200,000 ordered, as that would've meant almost the entire frontline strength of the Union would've been equipped with them.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
Not at all, you seem to have confused contracts with actual production. 10,000 Spencers were ordered in 1861, but only 600 had been delivered by January of 1863. I have no idea where you are getting 200,000 ordered, as that would've meant almost the entire frontline strength of the Union would've been equipped with them.

1st Brigade, 4th Division, XIV Corps.

It's also known as the "Hatchet Brigade" and was basically doing Biltzkrieg before Panzers were even invented.

You don't know jack shit about history.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Remind me, how well did America do against Britain the last time they fought, war of 1812, was it?

The global situation in 1812 was utterly different from the one during the Southern Rebellion; you will note that in actual history, the European powers did in fact fuck off and not support the Confederacy to any meaningful extent.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
The global situation in 1812 was utterly different from the one during the Southern Rebellion; you will note that in actual history, the European powers did in fact fuck off and not support the Confederacy to any meaningful extent.
And until the end of his life Palmerston said they should have gone in on the Confederate side.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
The global situation in 1812 was utterly different from the one during the Southern Rebellion; you will note that in actual history, the European powers did in fact fuck off and not support the Confederacy to any meaningful extent.
Yes for mostly moral issues they all were heavily against slavery. If however they decided to make a proverbial deal with the devil they could have beat the US and make sure there was an independent confederacy.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Approximately 200,000 Spencers were made and Wilder's "Lightning Brigade" would have needed at least 5,000 when at full strength.

1. Approximately 200,000 Spencers were made for the entire production of that rifle from 1860 through 1869, not during the Southern Rebellion which ended by mid-1865. The total number ordered by the Union Army is documented to have been on the order of 11,500.

2. Like all Civil War units, the "Lightning Brigade" was never even remotely near full strength, and even *at* full strength would have needed barely 4,000 Spencer rifles since it had four mounted infantry and one artillery regiment. Wilder in fact requested only 2,000 repeating rifles from the Army (although he had earlier asked for tack for up to 5,000 horsemen), and the Spencer factory records show that the number ordered by Wilder as a private purchase (later taken over and paid for by the government) was 1,400. Additional rifles were obtained through "proper" army channels beyond that initial purchase, but not four thousand!
 

bintananth

behind a desk
2. Like all Civil War units, the "Lightning Brigade" was never even remotely near full strength, and even *at* full strength would have needed barely 4,000 Spencer rifles since it had four mounted infantry and one artillery regiment. Wilder in fact requested only 2,000 repeating rifles from the Army (although he had earlier asked for tack for up to 5,000 horsemen), and the Spencer factory records show that the number ordered by Wilder as a private purchase (later taken over and paid for by the government) was 1,400. Additional rifles were obtained through "proper" army channels beyond that initial purchase, but not four thousand!
Five regiments, not four and you are correct about the "never even remotely near full strength" part because US and CS units were usually half-strength or less on a good day.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Five regiments, not four and you are correct about the "never even remotely near full strength" part because US and CS units were usually half-strength or less on a good day.

Four mounted infantry and one artillery regiment; four plus one is five.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Artillery don't need Spencer's

My point exactly; and even if they did, the artillery regiment was about 150 men as opposed to 1000. So the idea that Spencer's Brigade would need "at least" 5000 Spencers is completely bunk; their initial order of 1400 is entirely in line with their actual unit size at the time, and they almost certainly never had more than 2000 or so men even at height.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
And you try not to have all your forces front amd center in combat at a time
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
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Oh for... the United States of 1810s and the United States of 1860s are two utterly and completely different beasts in ways no European can really grok due to the inherent different nature of the US to typical European countries.

The first major difference is this:

Bulgarian Population in 1810: 2,200,000
Bulgarian Population in 1860: 2,540,000

French Population in 1810: 30,000,000
French Population in 1860: 37,200,000

Italian Population in 1810: 19,600,000
Italian Population in 1860: 26,000,000

Spanish Population in 1810: 11,900,000
Spanish Population in 1860: 15,600,000

GB Population in 1810: 10,186,000
GB Population in 1860: 28,917,900

US Population in 1810: 7,239,881
US Population in 1860: 31,443,321

I want you to stop and really understand what those numbers mean. In the same period of time France saw a 24% increase in population Great Britain saw an 184% growth in population while the US saw a 334% increase in population, nearly DOUBLE that of Great Britain. The US, in 1812, had 3 million LESS people than Great Britain did, by the 1860s they had 3 million MORE. And the majority of that population growth was in the North, as that massive population boom was driven in large part by various waves of immigration to the US from various European countries that almost ALL went to the northern and northwestern states as that was where opportunities were.

Meanwhile in the same period the US had seen a massive wave of industrialization in the north that completely upended the economies of the region. In 1810 around ~72% of the US population was farm labor, by 1860 it had dropped to ~56%. This is a dramatic transformation of the economy.

Likewise the US went from having no railroads in 1810 (in fairness, nobody had railroads in 1810, the first profitable railroad didn't open in England until 1812) to having 30,000 miles of track laid, while Great Britain had around 10,000 miles. Granted, not entirely a fair comparison, as GB's railroads served a larger percentage of the country than the US ones did due to the sheer size difference. However, for reference, both of these countries had more rail-line laid than in any other country in Europe at the time. Likewise the first true telecommunication system, the telegraph, was considerably more widespread in the US than in any other country, with the US having 23,000 miles of telegraph line internally compared to 2,200 miles for Great Britain (who was the highest in Europe) in the 1850s. What this means, from a practical standpoint, is that the US would have much better coordination and control of operations in North America than Britain would and be able to use their railroads to move troops around much more effectively to respond to any land attacks.

As to the most critical force in this comparison, the navies, the US Navy in the 1810s relatively new and overall small, with only 5,000 personnel and 14 ocean going ships. During the Civil War the US navy rapidly grew from 42 ships to 671. This was considerably more ships than the Royal Navy fielded at the time (398), and most of the US ships were integrating new technology at a rapid pace while the Royal navy had considerable amounts of legacy ships that would not have been able to compete. Add in that the Royal navy would have had to remain on station across much the world, while the US Navy would be mainly focused on defending the continent and maintaining the blockade, and the numbers simply do not look good for the British, who would not be able to concentrate their forces effectively compared to the US.

So no, British direct military intervention in the US Civil War is not as much as a sure thing as you'd think. If it somehow happened early enough in the war it could force a negotiated end, but the capabilities of Britain and America were no so far apart as you seem to think they were, and the US of the 1860s was a VASTLY and completely DIFFERENT beast compared to the US of the 1810s. To even suggest that just because things went one way in 1812 that they would play out similarly in 1860 just demonstrates your utter ignorance of American history and just how dramatically the US rose and developed as a world power in the 19th century. By the 1860s the US was a top tier world power on par with any of the European empires, and superior to many of them when it came to industry and innovation. Sure we didn't do international colonialism the same way the Europeans did, but then we didn't need to, as the US was not only a massive home market for our own goods, we tended to have most raw materials we needed within our territory anyway, and so were really going out looking for luxury goods and new markets to sell to (and we were willing to sell to anyone, as we had long ago rejected the Mercantile policies that drove European colonialism).

Just... really... citing 1812 as support for something in 1860? That 50 year period is perhaps one of the most dramatic shifts in human history. That is the core years of the Industrial Revolution. That is when the Steam engine is invented and the railroads began connecting across continents in ways never before imagined; the telegraph is invented and saw the first trans-Atlantic cables laid. This was when the era of Wooden Ships and Iron Men saw it's final "Hurrah!" and firearms went predominately from smoothbore to rifled and the dramatic increase in accuracy was achieved. The revolver was invented and the groundwork laid for automatic firearms. There's been few times of such dramatic changes in 50 years... and you stumbled into arguably the biggest one in world history...
 

History Learner

Well-known member

1st Brigade, 4th Division, XIV Corps.

It's also known as the "Hatchet Brigade" and was basically doing Biltzkrieg before Panzers were even invented.

You don't know jack shit about history.

That's cool and all, but there weren't 200,000 Spencers and, IIRC, even this brigade wasn't fully equipped with them. Again, however, this doesn't detract from the main point?
 

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