History Causes of WWI and Partition of Germany.

PsihoKekec

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There is a perception that Treaty of Versailles was horribly unfair to Germany. Considering the peace terms they forced on France in 1871, what they planned in 1914 and the eace terms they forced on Russia, it was almost lenient.
 

Francis Urquhart

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There is a perception that Treaty of Versailles was horribly unfair to Germany. Considering the peace terms they forced on France in 1871, what they planned in 1914 and the eace terms they forced on Russia, it was almost lenient.

Very much so. In fact, in his book Deluge, Adam Tooze makes a very strong case that the Versailles Treaty wasn't harsh enough. Ferdinand Foch came to the same conclusion when he said "This is not a peace, it is an armistice for 20 years". He was right almost to the day. According to Tooze, the Versailles Treaty fell between too stools. Far too lenient to make sure the Germans didn't start another war, severe enough to provide the fuel for that war. What is particularly ironic is that the Germans were actually on the verge of complete collapse at that point and they knew if they didn't get an armistice in November 1918, they were faced with unconditional surrender the following month. The French had it right; if their policies had been adopted, they could well have prevented WW2.

The main culprit was Woodrow Wilson who, as late as October 1918 was still trying to force "a peace without victors". Woodrow Wilson almost achieved the impossible, he was a worse President than Obama, quite possibly the worst president we have ever had.

I would solidly recommend Tooze's books that constitute an excellent demolition job on the German war economy (Wages of Destruction) and the end of WW1 and the years up to the great depression (Deluge). I haven't read his most recent work yet.
 
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Francis Urquhart

Well-known member
I get the impression that for some of the people in the establishment of that day, the German Empire's real crime was existing at all. Bismark and his machinations upset the older status quo in many ways.
I don't think that existing was the problem. The European statesmen were quite used to powers waxing and waning. I think the primary issue was that a sort of code of international conduct for the resolution of disputes existed and a code of what one might call good manners existed for international relations in general. The German Empire conducted itself with an aggressively truculent belligerency which alienated everybody around them. They seemed to think they could do whatever they liked but nobody else was allowed to return the compliment. Bit like the Democrat Party in the USA today.

Remember that after introducing poison gas, flamethrowers, massacring civilian hostages, destroying priceless words of art and executing PoWs, the Germans tried to bring the US before the international court for issuing rear-area troops with shotguns? Also, that after the armistice was signed, Germans withdrawing from Northern France deliberately flooded the coal mines there? That's why the French wanted such massive reparations and the supply of coal from the Saarland.

Personally, I think the greatest mistake with Versailles was that it allowed the unified Germany to survive. We should have done what we did in 1945, split Germany into four occupation zoned, Prussia occupied by the Russians (or whoever if the Russians can't - Italy might be nice) the UK gets Hannover back, France gets Saxony and the Americans get Bavaria. Then, on withdrawing the occupation forces, the four are constituted as independent countries with the firm warning that any attempt at reunification will be causus belli.
 

Francis Urquhart

Well-known member
I kinda have to ask "why" on this one. Just because that's the piece leftover or some other reason?
Primarily because it was the bit left over. We could give Saxony to the Americans, Prussia to the French and Bavaria to the Italians. On the other hand, the legendary "Prussian Efficiency" wouldn't survive ten years of Italian rule.
 
D

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@Francis Urquhart , why not just restore Hannover permanently to the UK and just give Bavaria to Austria? That would economically balance Austria with the rest of Germany to make Anschluss impossible, Bavaria has a similar culture. Hannover, after 1945, many people outright wanted to be annexed by the UK considering what the alternatives looked to be. Monarchies still mattered in 1918 and there were many Hannoverians bitter over the subjection to Prussia.

Of course, another interesting thing was the failure to support the Rhineland Republic. Adenauer was actually involved in that way back in 1918 before he became prominent in post-WW2 Germany.
 

Vargas Fan

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@Francis Urquhart , why not just restore Hannover permanently to the UK and just give Bavaria to Austria? That would economically balance Austria with the rest of Germany to make Anschluss impossible, Bavaria has a similar culture. Hannover, after 1945, many people outright wanted to be annexed by the UK considering what the alternatives looked to be. Monarchies still mattered in 1918 and there were many Hannoverians bitter over the subjection to Prussia.

Of course, another interesting thing was the failure to support the Rhineland Republic. Adenauer was actually involved in that way back in 1918 before he became prominent in post-WW2 Germany.

Wasn't Bavaria traditionally strongly independent? In fact wasn't there some resistance to Bavaria becoming part of the greater German state and that the Wittelsbach monarchy was quite popular among large parts of the population despite the spending sprees that Ludwig II went on when building Neuschwanstein, Herrencheimsee and Linderhof, and also financially backing Richard Wagner.
 
D

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Wasn't Bavaria traditionally strongly independent? In fact wasn't there some resistance to Bavaria becoming part of the greater German state and that the Wittelsbach monarchy was quite popular among large parts of the population despite the spending sprees that Ludwig II went on when building Neuschwanstein, Herrencheimsee and Linderhof, and also financially backing Richard Wagner.

Precisely, but it would be very hard for them to be independent on their own, whereas they would be an equal partner in a federation with Austria, more or less.
 

LordSunhawk

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Well, I am of the opinion that the Germans were far too generous to the French after the Franco-Prussian War, complete disarmament and deindustrialization might have been sufficient reparations for the horrors the French inflicted upon the Germanies during the Napoleonic and, far more grievously, the 30-Years War. Split them into four parts, ban any sort of armed forces, destroy all the factories and mines, and burn all the vineyards.

See how ridiculous that sounds from the other side?
 

Scottty

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Founder
I don't think that existing was the problem.

Except that your proposed solution to the German Question is:

Personally, I think the greatest mistake with Versailles was that it allowed the unified Germany to survive. We should have done what we did in 1945, split Germany into four occupation zoned, Prussia occupied by the Russians (or whoever if the Russians can't - Italy might be nice) the UK gets Hannover back, France gets Saxony and the Americans get Bavaria. Then, on withdrawing the occupation forces, the four are constituted as independent countries with the firm warning that any attempt at reunification will be causus belli.

So do you want to go to war against Germany now? After all, they're back together.
 
D

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Well, I am of the opinion that the Germans were far too generous to the French after the Franco-Prussian War, complete disarmament and deindustrialization might have been sufficient reparations for the horrors the French inflicted upon the Germanies during the Napoleonic and, far more grievously, the 30-Years War. Split them into four parts, ban any sort of armed forces, destroy all the factories and mines, and burn all the vineyards.

See how ridiculous that sounds from the other side?

France didn't have a history of centuries of independent states. It's not that I'm anti-German, it's that I'm pro-Austrian, pro-Bavarian, pro-Saxon, pro-Hannoverian, etc.
 

ShadowsOfParadox

Well-known member
France didn't have a history of centuries of independent states.
I mean... it kind of did... like, unless you wanna claim that Japan was united during the Sengoku Jidai because TECHNICALLY all the feuding warlords were "loyal" to the same dude... That's about how much control the French King has had of France as a whole basically until the end of the Hundred Years War with a few notable exceptions.

For feth's sake, the Burgundians could straight up go "We're gonna work with the English now!" for a bunch of that series of wars.

Sure, France has had some REALLY stronk kings and even a handful of Emperors, but much like the Pre-Civil War USA being "French" had a lot less meaning than being a resident of Marseille or inhabitant of the Duchy of So and So. Again, with a few exceptions.
 
D

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@ShadowsOfParadox but none of them had well-defined territorial boundaries and administrative apparati, unlike even Hannover which retained both as a Prussian Province, let alone the federal German Monarchies.
 

Francis Urquhart

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Well, I am of the opinion that the Germans were far too generous to the French after the Franco-Prussian War, complete disarmament and deindustrialization might have been sufficient reparations for the horrors the French inflicted upon the Germanies during the Napoleonic and, far more grievously, the 30-Years War. Split them into four parts, ban any sort of armed forces, destroy all the factories and mines, and burn all the vineyards.
Perhaps your opinion might change if you realize that essentially the Germans attempted to achieve that very end in the 1871 peace treaty. That was deliberately constructed to permanently destroy France as a military and industrial power. The removal of Alsace-Lorraine was intended to cripple French industrial power while the massive reparations were intended to drain French capital and prevent the redevelopment of industrial resources elsewhere. The problem was that the Germans didn't then have the industrial nous to do the job properly and the French were able to pay the reparations off quickly (within five years) and then switch to a program of redevelopment. Assisted by British capital investment which was an interesting reversal of the international situation to date.

So do you want to go to war against Germany now? After all, they're back together.

Different timeline of course and we can very well make the argument that the division into four occupation zones for a decade or so and the division of the country into two parts for forty years and change achieved the desired result. A declaration of war isn't necessary now because the desired result had been achieved. It's worth noting though that the Soviet Union stated that it would consider German Reunification a causus belli for a number of years. IIRC the constitution of the British Labour Party contained a clause opposing German Reunification, certainly well into the 1980s and it may be there today.

However, the point is that treaties, armistices, peace agreements etc are not constructed to be fair and equitable; there is no reason why they should be, they are dictated to the losers by the winners. They are constructed to achieve the strategic aims of the victors and they should be judged on the grounds of whether they achieve those ends. The problem with the Versailles Treaty was that the winners were a coalition that had divergent aims. France wanted revenge for 1871, they wanted their property back. They also wanted funding for the massive job of reconstructing north-eastern France and basically rebuilding the country. Britain wanted to make sure there wouldn't be another great war that would result in it committing a major land army to Europe, the US wanted an end to the Great Power system based on imperial possessions and Italy wanted to be considered one of the big boys.

Basically, by the time everything that people had discarded everything that they couldn't agree on and included everything they could, that lot boiled down to:

  1. Germany bore sole responsibility for starting the war and should be punished for doing so
  2. As a derivative of the above, it should be made impossible for Germany to start another war
  3. Europe should be repaired and the damage caused by the war remediated as soon as possible

For details of these negotiations and how the treaty environment evolved, I suggest you read

The Deluge: The Great War, America and the Remaking of the Global Order, 1916-1931 by Adam Tooze.

It's a masterly summary of the political, economic and industrial factors that led to the Treaty of Versailles and how that treaty inevitably led to the Great Depression. It's hard going, very heavy reading, but it is worth the effort.

So, judging on the basis of the three overarching aims, how did the Allies do?

I'd give them 50 percent on Aim 1. They did establish that Germany had been the overall culprit for the outbreak of WW1 internationally. Sadly, they didn't drive that home in Germany. A very good case can be made that in order to do this, Germany would have had to be occupied.

Complete Fail on Aim 2. WW2 broke out 20 years later and again, Germany was the culprit.

I'd give them 33 percent on Aim 3. The problem was that the Allies were deep in debt with the exception of the United States who was now the world's largest creditor nation. The UK wasn't too badly off; it owed the United States an eye-watering amount of money but most of it could be recouped from monies owed to it. The real problems in the Allies were France and Russia but nobody cared about Russia. The only way reconstruction could be funded was by reparations from Germany and Woodrow Wilson was unwilling to agree to the amounts required. A good case can be made that he simply didn't know how bad the damage was.

So, based on the only consideration that matters, how successful was the Versailles Treaty? 0.8 out of 3.0. That's a pretty dismal outcome. The massive fail was preventing Germany from starting another war and I honestly think that it was achievable only by forcing an unconditional surrender which the Germans knew was coming in December 1918. France and Britain knew it as well. America didn't.

It should be noted that the split up, occupy and reconstruct policy actually worked after WW2. It's probably one of the few examples of nation-building that has.
 

Scottty

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I'd give them 50 percent on Aim 1. They did establish that Germany had been the overall culprit for the outbreak of WW1 internationally. Sadly, they didn't drive that home in Germany. A very good case can be made that in order to do this, Germany would have had to be occupied.

But Germany wasn't the cause of WW1 - that was Austria-Hungary and Russia going to war over Serbia, and the other Great Powers getting pulled in due to their network of treaties.
Making everyone believe something false achieves nothing useful there.
 

Hlaalu Agent

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Well, I am of the opinion that the Germans were far too generous to the French after the Franco-Prussian War, complete disarmament and deindustrialization might have been sufficient reparations for the horrors the French inflicted upon the Germanies during the Napoleonic and, far more grievously, the 30-Years War. Split them into four parts, ban any sort of armed forces, destroy all the factories and mines, and burn all the vineyards.

See how ridiculous that sounds from the other side?

Sounds more reasonable than the Anti-German sentiment, because unlike the Entente Germany was prosecuting a Just War in supporting their ally against a terror state who was behind the murderer of the reigning monarch of Austria-Hungary. To lay blame on Germany is pure dishonesty.

Since the Entente was supporting Serbia who in fact started the war due to their state terrorist antics, it is fair to say that the Entente were the aggressors.
 
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ShadowsOfParadox

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But Germany wasn't the cause of WW1 - that was Austria-Hungary and Russia going to war over Serbia
there are a number of points in the record of diplomatic talk that, where it doesn't outright say so, implies heavily that the reason Austria-Hungary was willing to go to war was Germany egging them on.
 

Urabrask Revealed

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there are a number of points in the record of diplomatic talk that, where it doesn't outright say so, implies heavily that the reason Austria-Hungary was willing to go to war was Germany egging them on.
Germany was under obligation to offer their help. If they had refused, they would have looked bad on the international scene.
Ultimativly the fault lies with the Austria-Hungary and the Russians.

EDIT: Besides, does anyone here even understand how happy the german states were to finally unite as one nation?
Any foreign force trying to split them up again, would have to deal with something like Vietnam: The Prequel.

EDIT 2: And do you really think the nations standing nearby would support this? They would quickly realize if precedent is set, then every nation weaker than the UK is going to be on the chopping block.

India? What india? There're only five mini-nations constantly at war with each other.
 
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Hlaalu Agent

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Germany was under obligation to offer their help. If they had refused, they would have looked bad on the international scene.
Ultimativly the fault lies with the Austria-Hungary and the Russians.

EDIT: Besides, does anyone here even understand how happy the german states were to finally unite as one nation?
Any foreign force trying to split them up, would result in something like Vietnam: The Prequel.

Indeed. Welshing on your allies tends to be looked upon poorly. And really, why should blame be cast on a country for what was essentially a powder keg waiting to happen? Except perhaps the country that lit it *cough* Serbia *cough*.

And really, when has breaking nations up ever worked well? Just look at the historical antecedents for this. Yugoslavia. The Soviet Union. The Koreas. Vietnam. The Ottoman Empire. Really, who in the right mind would want to do this? Except to intentionally create additional unneeded human suffering.

And going to be honest, I am actually livid at the opinions displayed by some. Because to me, I find them quite...distasteful, and I will leave it at that.
 

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