Marvel Captain America: The Selfishness of Selflessness? CBR Article

[Husky_Khan]

Basically the comic book news and fandom website CBR wrote a hit piece on Captain America and his origins and was highly critical of the character and everything. They have since deleted the article which apparently was published on Memorial Day but thankfully it's been saved for posterity!

It's not exceptionally partisan but the article is extremely shallow and trite and barely researched. It's main argument is how Steve was actually selfish for wanting to serve in combat in WW2, how his unbendimg altruism led to catastrophe in both the Comic and film Civil War stories, and his needless choice of aggression is a negative on him but an accurate display of Americanness... Or so something.

Still the article, while vapid, could prove a nice vehicle on discussing altruism and selflessness and their good and points in regards to characters and stories like those of Captain America.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

Basically the comic book news and fandom website CBR wrote a hit piece on Captain America and his origins and was highly critical of the character and everything. They have since deleted the article which apparently was published on Memorial Day but thankfully it's been saved for posterity!

It's not exceptionally partisan but the article is extremely shallow and trite and barely researched. It's main argument is how Steve was actually selfish for wanting to serve in combat in WW2, how his unbendimg altruism led to catastrophe in both the Comic and film Civil War stories, and his needless choice of aggression is a negative on him but an accurate display of Americanness... Or so something.

Still the article, while vapid, could prove a nice vehicle on discussing altruism and selflessness and their good and points in regards to characters and stories like those of Captain America.

I haven't looked at the article, but honestly the MCU Civil War really fucked up Cap's character.

The comics, as badly as they handled the issue, at least had both sides having something of a point. But the MCU? Cap is honestly the real villain of that movie and the absolute unwillingness of the later movies to acknowledge it dragged down pretty much everyone of his scenes.

And no, he wasn't remotely altruistic in MCU Civil War; he was a flat out arrogant, entitled, selfish, asshole who would have been right at home with a great many super villains.

 

[Terthna]

I haven't looked at the article, but honestly the MCU Civil War really fucked up Cap's character.

The comics, as badly as they handled the issue, at least had both sides having something of a point. But the MCU? Cap is honestly the real villain of that movie and the absolute unwillingness of the later movies to acknowledge it dragged down pretty much everyone of his scenes.

And no, he wasn't remotely altruistic in MCU Civil War; he was a flat out arrogant, entitled, selfish, asshole who would have been right at home with a great many super villains.

Honestly, the Civil War movie killed my interest in the MCU as a franchise entirely; and while I enjoyed Doctor Strange, Black Panther, and the second Guardians of the Galaxy movie to varying degrees, it was not because they were tied into the MCU.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

Honestly, the Civil War movie killed my interest in the MCU as a franchise entirely; and while I enjoyed Doctor Strange, Black Panther, and the second Guardians of the Galaxy movie to varying degrees, it was not because they were tied into the MCU.

Being honest, Winter Soldier is what I consider the start of a bad trend.

Winter Soldier should have been Avengers 2, probably with Ultron added in as a Hydra AI and somewhat more limited in sheer power.

Not calling Stark or even having Clint present in WS was a horrid decision.

Age of Ultron? The blame Tony narrative was pushed too hard and letting Wanda get a pass and invitation straight into the Avengers was pretty crap. I mean she was literally a terrorist who had willingly joined Hydra, willingly worked with Ultron, and manipulated the minds of the Avengers. And yet she was allowed to basically just walk into the Avengers without anything like a legitimate vetting process.

Civil War just doubled down on all the problems and, in many respects, made them worse.

I mean the Cap/Stark disagreement shouldn't have been over the idea of the Accords; it should have been over their implementation and details. Stark on the side of paying lip service to them and manipulating the political process later to make them more acceptable while Cap is on the side of refusing to agree to them until they are fixed because when he gives his word, he keeps it.

Like Stark? It would never even occur to him to actually be bound by the Accords; regardless of his supporting them and agreeing with the idea in principle. I mean he has been ignoring laws and regulations from day one without a moment's hesitation; does anyone think that he would ever let some UN body actually control his tech, what he does with his tech, or stop him from intervening in a situation that he thought he should intervene in?

But Cap's entire argument in Civil War is "I'm better than everybody else because I got super steroids and how dare I have to obey the laws of the normal people. I shall solve whatever problems I decide to solve in whatever manner I decide is best and you shall thank me for it, plebe. Now how dare you attempt to stop me from helping a terrorist, assassin, and mass murderer escape justice or get mad at me for fighting law enforcement who are acting in a legal and reasonable manner."

Granted, one of the bigger problems with Civil War was Nat joining Cap.

 

[Terthna]

Being honest, Winter Soldier is what I consider the start of a bad trend.

Winter Soldier should have been Avengers 2, probably with Ultron added in as a Hydra AI and somewhat more limited in sheer power.

Not calling Stark or even having Clint present in WS was a horrid decision.

Age of Ultron? The blame Tony narrative was pushed too hard and letting Wanda get a pass and invitation straight into the Avengers was pretty crap. I mean she was literally a terrorist who had willingly joined Hydra, willingly worked with Ultron, and manipulated the minds of the Avengers. And yet she was allowed to basically just walk into the Avengers without anything like a legitimate vetting process.

Civil War just doubled down on all the problems and, in many respects, made them worse.

I mean the Cap/Stark disagreement shouldn't have been over the idea of the Accords; it should have been over their implementation and details. Stark on the side of paying lip service to them and manipulating the political process later to make them more acceptable while Cap is on the side of refusing to agree to them until they are fixed because when he gives his word, he keeps it.

Like Stark? It would never even occur to him to actually be bound by the Accords; regardless of his supporting them and agreeing with the idea in principle. I mean he has been ignoring laws and regulations from day one without a moment's hesitation; does anyone think that he would ever let some UN body actually control his tech, what he does with his tech, or stop him from intervening in a situation that he thought he should intervene in?

But Cap's entire argument in Civil War is "I'm better than everybody else because I got super steroids and how dare I have to obey the laws of the normal people. I shall solve whatever problems I decide to solve in whatever manner I decide is best and you shall thank me for it, plebe. Now how dare you attempt to stop me from helping a terrorist, assassin, and mass murderer escape justice or get mad at me for fighting law enforcement who are acting in a legal and reasonable manner."

Granted, one of the bigger problems with Civil War was Nat joining Cap.

There's a lot of issues with the overall writing of the MCU movies, that really comes through when they try to present an overarching narrative. Honestly, the first Avengers movie looks more like a fluke in retrospect, because in my opinion they never managed to reach that level of quality in any of the others (and let's be honest, Captain America: Civil War was an Avengers movie in all but name).

 

[Emperor Tippy]

There's a lot of issues with the overall writing of the MCU movies, that really comes through when they try to present an overarching narrative. Honestly, the first Avengers movie looks more like a fluke in retrospect, because in my opinion they never managed to reach that level of quality in any of the others (and let's be honest, Captain America: Civil War was an Avengers movie in all but name).

What made Avengers work so well was that it respected all of the characters and had an ensemble cast that was understandable in how they related to one another.

Bringing in Sam, Wanda, and Vision (to a lesser extent) through off the dynamics. I mean without SHIELD around any more, Rhodey made a great deal of sense as he was still an active duty USAF Colonel and the Avengers were essentially a US supported team; he made great sense as the US government's eyes and interface point with the team - especially since the US government knew that he was willing to break with Tony if he thought that Tony was going too far.

Vision proved his loyalty and reliability along with having unique abilities and needing to be secured anyways thanks to the Mind Stone.

Sam? He was a dude with some guns and a pair of wings who only got on the team because Cap wanted him on the team.

Wanda? She was a willing terrorist who knowingly joined HYDRA to kill Stark, knowingly and deliberately unleashed the Hulk on a populated city, played a substantial role in Ultron coming into existence, actively aided Ultron until he actually tried to wipe out most of the human species, and never even apologized or acted like she regretted any of it. In addition, she lacked both training and control.

Then you have Captain America. He worked at the leader of the Avengers when they were a SHIELD project because Fury was handling the strategic vision while Cap was left with the tactical implementation. It was Fury who decided when they Avengers needed to be assembled to deal with a threat, it was Fury who decided that someone was part of the Avengers, it was Fury who handled the political issues with the Avengers.

Post fall of Shield, all of that fell on Steve and Steve is a horrible strategist with no real understanding of politics, with no access to other tools to solve problems, with no ability in personnel management, and an active dislike for the most important human Avenger.

Cap is a tactician, put him on a battlefield or give him a battle and he will manage it exceedingly well. But outside that role? He has zero leadership talent or ability.

The Avengers were supposed to be SHIELD's "gone to hell" contingency. The tool used when the threat was either something that couldn't be effectively engaged with more conventional means or was on such a scale that failure simply was not a possibility to be countenanced. The Avengers were supposed to be deployed when losing a city to collateral damage was an acceptable price to pay for victory.

Post Winter Soldier though, Cap turned them into - essentially - a SHIELD response team. He used them to conduct counter terrorism operations, as law enforcement, as an anti-Hydra squad. The world's nations were willing to sit back and say nothing when all the Avengers were doing was engaging threats that were plainly beyond the realm of normal politics or national interest; the ceased to be the case once Cap started trying to use them as his own personal "fix the world's ills" team.

 

[Terthna]

What made Avengers work so well was that it respected all of the characters and had an ensemble cast that was understandable in how they related to one another.

Bringing in Sam, Wanda, and Vision (to a lesser extent) through off the dynamics. I mean without SHIELD around any more, Rhodey made a great deal of sense as he was still an active duty USAF Colonel and the Avengers were essentially a US supported team; he made great sense as the US government's eyes and interface point with the team - especially since the US government knew that he was willing to break with Tony if he thought that Tony was going too far.

Vision proved his loyalty and reliability along with having unique abilities and needing to be secured anyways thanks to the Mind Stone.

Sam? He was a dude with some guns and a pair of wings who only got on the team because Cap wanted him on the team.

Wanda? She was a willing terrorist who knowingly joined HYDRA to kill Stark, knowingly and deliberately unleashed the Hulk on a populated city, played a substantial role in Ultron coming into existence, actively aided Ultron until he actually tried to wipe out most of the human species, and never even apologized or acted like she regretted any of it. In addition, she lacked both training and control.

Then you have Captain America. He worked at the leader of the Avengers when they were a SHIELD project because Fury was handling the strategic vision while Cap was left with the tactical implementation. It was Fury who decided when they Avengers needed to be assembled to deal with a threat, it was Fury who decided that someone was part of the Avengers, it was Fury who handled the political issues with the Avengers.

Post fall of Shield, all of that fell on Steve and Steve is a horrible strategist with no real understanding of politics, with no access to other tools to solve problems, with no ability in personnel management, and an active dislike for the most important human Avenger.

Cap is a tactician, put him on a battlefield or give him a battle and he will manage it exceedingly well. But outside that role? He has zero leadership talent or ability.

The Avengers were supposed to be SHIELD's "gone to hell" contingency. The tool used when the threat was either something that couldn't be effectively engaged with more conventional means or was on such a scale that failure simply was not a possibility to be countenanced. The Avengers were supposed to be deployed when losing a city to collateral damage was an acceptable price to pay for victory.

Post Winter Soldier though, Cap turned them into - essentially - a SHIELD response team. He used them to conduct counter terrorism operations, as law enforcement, as an anti-Hydra squad. The world's nations were willing to sit back and say nothing when all the Avengers were doing was engaging threats that were plainly beyond the realm of normal politics or national interest; the ceased to be the case once Cap started trying to use them as his own personal "fix the world's ills" team.

One wonders how much worse this franchise can get, until one remembers that Captain Marvel is probably going to be placed as the leader of the new Avengers going forward. Even fans who have enjoyed every movie up through End Game are balking at that idea.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

One wonders how much worse this franchise can get, until one remembers that Captain Marvel is probably going to be placed as the leader of the new Avengers going forward. Even fans who have enjoyed every movie up through End Game are balking at that idea.

Captain Marvel fits best filling the role of Thor, not that of Cap.

T'Challa would actually probably be the best choice for leader. He understands the politics involved better than any of the rest at least.

 

[Terthna]

Captain Marvel fits best filling the role of Thor, not that of Cap.

T'Challa would actually probably be the best choice for leader. He understands the politics involved better than any of the rest at least.

Do you honestly expect the people behind the MCU to realize that? Especially considering that most of their best are being shunted over to Star Wars to try and save that franchise?

 

[Emperor Tippy]

Do you honestly expect the people behind the MCU to realize that? Especially considering that most of their best are being shunted over to Star Wars to try and save that franchise?

Black Panther was a bigger success economically and he's black; which is worth more woke points than a white woman.

 

[Terthna]

Black Panther was a bigger success economically and he's black; which is worth more woke points than a white woman.

Except that most "woke" individuals are also massive racists; they see black people as kept pets, not legitimate leaders.

 

[S'task]

Sam? He was a dude with some guns and a pair of wings who only got on the team because Cap wanted him on the team.

That's severely underselling who and what Falcon was.

Falcon is actually one of the most highly trained member of the Avengers, period. Remember he was a member of the US Air Force's Pararescue squad, which is a legitimate elite special forces team. This ALSO means that he had another role on the team that nobody covered: emergency first aid, since, as pararescue, he was trained in emergency field medicine.

What this ends up meaning is that he's as highly trained as Widow and Hawkeye while also having a specific subset of skills nobody else on the team has (medical training) and then on top of all that has his fancy set of wings and dual machine pistols.

There's a reason in Winter Soldier he keeps pace with Natasha without breaking a sweat and keeps his cool even while explosions and other crap is going on around him. Dude was trained to jump out of planes and helicopters while under fire to attempt rescue of injured. The real reason he couldn't keep up with Cap on his run around Washington wasn't just the super serum, it was that his monstrous brass ones slowed him down.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

That's severely underselling who and what Falcon was.

Falcon is actually one of the most highly trained member of the Avengers, period. Remember he was a member of the US Air Force's Pararescue squad, which is a legitimate elite special forces team. This ALSO means that he had another role on the team that nobody covered: emergency first aid, since, as pararescue, he was trained in emergency field medicine.

What this ends up meaning is that he's as highly trained as Widow and Hawkeye while also having a specific subset of skills nobody else on the team has (medical training) and then on top of all that has his fancy set of wings and dual machine pistols.

There's a reason in Winter Soldier he keeps pace with Natasha without breaking a sweat and keeps his cool even while explosions and other crap is going on around him. Dude was trained to jump out of planes and helicopters while under fire to attempt rescue of injured. The real reason he couldn't keep up with Cap on his run around Washington wasn't just the super serum, it was that his monstrous brass ones slowed him down.

I'm aware, I was underselling him. That being said, he wasn't Widow or Hawkeye tier.

Black Widow was the world's best infiltrator and assassin before SHIELD recruited her and they only made her better afterword's. For all that the Avengers massively underutilized her (direct, open, combat is not her area of specialty) she was still a better combatant than most anyone else.

Hawkeye was the world's best sniper and one of its top assassins. Much like Widow, the Avengers severely underutilized him but he was, again, still a top tier combatant even outside his area of focus.

Sam was a top tier special forces soldier. Unquestionably skilled and deadly. What he wasn't was anything approaching unique or exceptional on the scale that the Avengers operated at.

In that he was like Rhodey.

Rhodey was an MIT grad and a USAF combat and test pilot who rose to the rank of Colonel and had a lot of political experience. What made him special though was his relationship with Tony Stark. He was Warmachine because Tony was willing to let him use the suit and his biggest value as an Avenger (in many ways) was his ability to (to some extent) control Tony.

Sam is Steve's Rhodey, essentially.

The difference between Falcon and Warmachine though is that one has a wingsuit and the other wears an army killer.

---
Honestly, I have no real issue with Falcon and actually like him as a character. But as an Avenger? He is emblematic of everything wrong with Cap's leadership.

Falcon would be right at home on Cap's Shield strike team or the like. Cap, Widow, Hawkeye, Falcon, Bucky would make an exceptionally capable black ops team or Super SWAT team; the team inbetween the Avengers and a regular special forces team.

But for a gone to hell situation where the world is facing alien invasions? Honestly, Cap is borderline too weak to contribute to that kind of fight.

Stark, Hulk, Thor, Marvel, Vision, Strange, Wanda (assuming that she was mature, had control, and could be trusted); they are simply operating on a scale and power level that the rest lack (with the possible exception of Hope in the Wasp suit and Spiderman).

 

[Tiamat]

You know the sadly ironic thing about all this brouhaha?

Captain America began his original run in comics back in 1940 under Jack Kirby, aka Jacob Kurtzberg who envisioned him as a patriotic superhero who obviously became one of the most endearing of his time, hell probably one of the very few that's stood the test of time. He gave patriotism a shot in the arm and was popular during the war for obvious reasons...because he's Captain America.

The "writer" of this hit piece obviously did this just to spurn up some outrage and get some cheap clicks on the website...since our culture is so obsessed with outrage and clicks it's now become a narcissistic sickness. I think Jacob Kurtzberg, a WW2 veteran would be rolling in his damn grave at all the pathetic stupidity that accounts for "modern culture" now, which is a joke.

The one who wrote this "article" is a very weak and pathetic individual who essentially whored himself with this just to make some quick bucks. Calling him a man is an insult to real men everywhere.