Buffy the Vampire Slayer, a discussion thread and retrospective

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
Most of the fics I enjoyed are long since gone really, I lost a massive archive I has a few years ago which bummed me out to no end.

As for the fic i question.

In around 1998/1999 there was a fic series, kind of a virtual season before that became a thing. At the end of that first season, magic shenanigans had Angel end up with a son, that son was kidnapped from him and aged up via magic/time/space manipulation to grow up into an adult, to hate his father and to be used as a weapon against him.

Sound familiar?

Thus leading to Connor, a brat kid who by my impressions of him, I would gleefully watch to see get vaporized by a 150kt nuke.

Then again, by the end of BTVS there were a lot of characters on that show I wanted to see get vaporized by a 550kt, so take that for what you will. :devilish:
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
So I found out another tidbit....apparently Nicholas Brendon was NOT invited to the EW BTVS anniversary photo shoot, supposedly by David Boreanaz's insistence.

Not sure what to make of that, but didn't sound good. Brendon showed up later for an individual shoot and they photoshopped him into the cast picture. Ouch. And I found out a few more details about what happened to Brendon when he was younger and how it scarred him. I won't discuss it here, but as Spartan303 said, yes it's pretty bad, nobody deserved that.

As for Whedon...his ex-wife shared a bit from a letter he wrote about how he was constantly surrounded by, and I'm paraphrasing, "Beautiful, untouchable, needy women every day" and that he felt like he was in a Greek drama afflicted by a certain incurable sickness. Yeah...never a good sign. On the other hand, not that I'm defending Whedon in any way, but to be devil's advocate, if I were in his shoes, I could see how easy it would be to start feeling that way. The difference is not letting that "sickness", however shitty it may feel sometimes, afflict you to the point you let it dictate your impulses. If the rumors are right, that's what happened with Whedon and several of his leading ladies. It would be harshly ironic in Eliza Dushku's case as she apparently was raised Mormon (I never knew this until now :oops:) and supposedly wasn't at all comfortable with doing any particular sexy/suggestive scenes.
 

Spartan303

In Captain America we Trust!
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So I found out another tidbit....apparently Nicholas Brendon was NOT invited to the EW BTVS anniversary photo shoot, supposedly by David Boreanaz's insistence.

Not sure what to make of that, but didn't sound good. Brendon showed up later for an individual shoot and they photoshopped him into the cast picture. Ouch. And I found out a few more details about what happened to Brendon when he was younger and how it scarred him. I won't discuss it here, but as Spartan303 said, yes it's pretty bad, nobody deserved that.

As for Whedon...his ex-wife shared a bit from a letter he wrote about how he was constantly surrounded by, and I'm paraphrasing, "Beautiful, untouchable, needy women every day" and that he felt like he was in a Greek drama afflicted by a certain incurable sickness. Yeah...never a good sign. On the other hand, not that I'm defending Whedon in any way, but to be devil's advocate, if I were in his shoes, I could see how easy it would be to start feeling that way. The difference is not letting that "sickness", however shitty it may feel sometimes, afflict you to the point you let it dictate your impulses. If the rumors are right, that's what happened with Whedon and several of his leading ladies. It would be harshly ironic in Eliza Dushku's case as she apparently was raised Mormon (I never knew this until now :oops:) and supposedly wasn't at all comfortable with doing any particular sexy/suggestive scenes.


I can tell you. David and Nick had a major falling out due to Nicks Alcoholism and Drugs. After the first time he flipped out and smacked around his then girlfriend David dropped him like a bad habit, especially as Nick was reaching out to him for help. There's some bad blood there now.
 

Lanmandragon

Well-known member
I can tell you. David and Nick had a major falling out due to Nicks Alcoholism and Drugs. After the first time he flipped out and smacked around his then girlfriend David dropped him like a bad habit, especially as Nick was reaching out to him for help. There's some bad blood there now.
I mean he should needing violence to controlling your woman. Means your weak and thus erratic and bad for business I'd drop him to.
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
An understandable position to take, especially in these days. But not long after David gets caught doing some scummy stuff himself, though not involving drugs.

Yeah...I just read about that too....Yeesh.

Ehh string dudes do scummy stuff sometimes. This is why honour and chivalry is a necessity to control those impulses and direct them towards good.

What annoys me though is how feminists love to cite Buffy as a feminist show, although that in itself has some merit, Buffy is actually a character I wouldn't mind having a daughter look up to...at least the Buffy in the first several seasons anyway.

It wasn't a "feminist" show, at least originally, it was a show that turned the whole "final girl in horror movies" concept on it's head. It's annoying how Whedon seemed fine with it being called a feminist show when he was apparently indulging in behavior that was anything but feminist....
 

Lanmandragon

Well-known member
Yeah...I just read about that too....Yeesh.



What annoys me though is how feminists love to cite Buffy as a feminist show, although that in itself has some merit, Buffy is actually a character I wouldn't mind having a daughter look up to...at least the Buffy in the first several seasons anyway.

It wasn't a "feminist" show, at least originally, it was a show that turned the whole "final girl in horror movies" concept on it's head. It's annoying how Whedon seemed fine with it being called a feminist show when he was apparently indulging in behavior that was anything but feminist....
"Anything but feminist" is fairly amusing. Truth is any male who espouses feminism can be safley assumed a rapist/abuser. Whedon being a scumbag was and is a firegine conclusion.
 

Lanmandragon

Well-known member
I believe the term is called "aggresive mimicry" or "Peckhamian mimicry". They disguise themselves as prey so they can gobble them up.
Perhaps so personally I don't see a reason to think to deeply on it. The pattern is pretty obvious and makes sense. Any "man" who would submit and bow down to any broad who's not his mom. Is clearly to much of a weak **** to get pussy so of course he'd. Think that kissing *** would increase his social status. Like most messed up crap in our culture this comes back to lack of strong g father figures. Anyway I'll cease what will invariably become a derail.
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
The lack of strong father figures of ANY sort in BTVS is pretty evident, though I recall this is partly because of Whedon's own personal experience growing up, which actually makes sense, experience invariably shapes what people will write about in the end, after all. That said...I would argue Giles was a vital figure on the show, he had his moments where he was shown to be the guiding paternal figure of the group, sort of the father figure to Buffy in absence of Buffy's dad Hank who barely ever got mentioned. That and his dry wit I felt was a perfect complement to Buffy's quips.

But yeah, I also suspect the lack of strong males was due to BTVS logic, strong male=evil patriarchy. :rolleyes:

I do have a Buffy verse planned that if it works out, will go into detail as to why Hank was absent during the later years of Buffy's life. Nothing malicious or supernatural....just something personal and tragic.
 

Spartan303

In Captain America we Trust!
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The lack of strong father figures of ANY sort in BTVS is pretty evident, though I recall this is partly because of Whedon's own personal experience growing up, which actually makes sense, experience invariably shapes what people will write about in the end, after all. That said...I would argue Giles was a vital figure on the show, he had his moments where he was shown to be the guiding paternal figure of the group, sort of the father figure to Buffy in absence of Buffy's dad Hank who barely ever got mentioned. That and his dry wit I felt was a perfect complement to Buffy's quips.

But yeah, I also suspect the lack of strong males was due to BTVS logic, strong male=evil patriarchy. :rolleyes:

I do have a Buffy verse planned that if it works out, will go into detail as to why Hank was absent during the later years of Buffy's life. Nothing malicious or supernatural....just something personal and tragic.


I'm currently working on my own story titled 'Winter 7' where I write a strong male figure in Xander. Xander essentially becoming a hero, whether he wants it or not. Its a crossover with Marvel MCU. The timelines are obviously shot, but in this case the crossover happens late season 3 to season 4 of Buffy and just about the time of Captain America The Winter Soldier on the Marvel side.

So Whedon didn't have a strong father figure in his life eh? That makes...so much sense.
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
I'm currently working on my own story titled 'Winter 7' where I write a strong male figure in Xander. Xander essentially becoming a hero, whether he wants it or not. Its a crossover with Marvel MCU. The timelines are obviously shot, but in this case the crossover happens late season 3 to season 4 of Buffy and just about the time of Captain America The Winter Soldier on the Marvel side.

So Whedon didn't have a strong father figure in his life eh? That makes...so much sense.

I don't recall what interview it was specifically, but Whedon did mention the lack of a father figure in his family, or a decent one, so yeah, it does make a lot of sense.

I think the key with making Xander a strong figure is to let him stand on his own, he doesn't need to "outshine" Buffy, he can just stand on his own two feet. Buffy's the Slayer...Xander is the awkward "loser guy" who evolves to be a capable fighter in his own right and while he doesn't have Buffy's power, he can still stand on his own two feet, we had glimpses of that here and there on the show. The other key is to not have Xander lose his sense of humor, hell his sarcasm is what really drives it home with him and it can actually be a useful weapon in interrogations. Some demon, undead vampire or whatnot that's getting interrogated begs for mercy because "that crazy man Xander won't shut up!!!"
 
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Spartan303

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I don't recall what interview it was specifically, but Whedon did mention the lack of a father figure in his family, or a decent one, so yeah, it does make a lot of sense.

I think the key with making Xander a strong figure is to let him stand on his own, he doesn't need to "outshine" Buffy, he can just stand on his own two feet. Buffy's the Slayer...Xander is the awkward "loser guy" who evolves to be a capable fighter in his own right and while he doesn't have Buffy's power, he can still stand on his own two feet, hell we had glimpses of that here and there on the show. The other key is to not have Xander lose his sense of humor, hell his sarcasm is what really drives it home with him and it can actually be a useful weapon in interrogations. Some demon, undead vampire or whatnot that's getting interrogated begs for mercy because "that crazy man Xander won't shut up!!!"


Oh, there is no outshining Buffy. To do such a crossover one must be very respectful of the characters. I hate stomp stories and I hate spite stories. Buffy will most definitely be the hero we've always known and loved. But, she is not the sole hero here. She is one of a few in this story. The others being Willow, Xander, Cap and maybe Black Widow.
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
Oh, there is no outshining Buffy. To do such a crossover one must be very respectful of the characters. I hate stomp stories and I hate spite stories. Buffy will most definitely be the hero we've always known and loved. But, she is not the sole hero here. She is one of a few in this story. The others being Willow, Xander, Cap and maybe Black Widow.

You have my interest. Perhaps Buffy will learn some valuable pointers from Cap and Black Widow...?
 

Navarro

Well-known member
Again, maybe I just don't get it....I still don't get "why" you have to make the males look like idiots to put over females to have a "feminist" show, hell, it's the same crap that's been going on now again with some of the terrible offerings Hollywood has put out tv, both on the big screen and small screen, but what makes it all worse was when it was clearly Whedon more indulging in his personal fetishes than anything else, among other things. They're worried that the male leads might outshine the female leads, but really if they're that worried? Then that clearly marks that someone's insecure or narcisstic about something, or maybe the main protagonist isn't quite as powerful or great as some may want her to be.

A zero-sum attitude.
 

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