British empire never falls

[stevep]

Very possible. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if the grain in southern Russia and Ukraine helped feed the people of Moscow and Leningrad in early 1943 and beyond. That area is a very productive breadbasket, at least in theory.

FWIW, IIRC, these deportations of tens of millions of Eastern Slavs to Siberia, et cetera were apparently supposed to happen over 25 or 30 years, so they weren't all going to be done immediately or anything close to it. Maybe a million or two million Eastern Slavs get deported to Siberia each year for 25 or 30 years. And maybe the Poles are thrown in there as well if the Nazis want them gone as well.

My point on the 1st issue is that grain crops are harvested in the autumn - when the region was largely in German hands - so whether their winter or spring sown the food wouldn't be available until autumn 43. Unless there is evidence that crops sown in 42 weren't either ravaged by the war or taken in large quantities by the occupying Germans? That's why I was doubtful of what was being said.

On the 2nd that would be logical although you still have a lot of people being moved into the region. OTL I think Siberia reached its maximum population under the post-war USSR of about 50-60 million with a lot of mineral development especially being demanded by the central government. Since the collapse of the USSR it has been dropping as people have been moving to better climates and job opportunities in the European provinces of Russia. Checking here it says that the population of Siberia and the Russian Far East was ~30 million in 2010.

According to the Russian Census of 2010, the Siberian and Far Eastern Federal Districts, located entirely east of the Ural Mountains, together have a population of about 25.6 million. Tyumen and Kurgan Oblasts, which are geographically in Siberia but administratively part of the Urals Federal District, together have a population of about 4.3 million. Thus, the whole region of Siberia (in the broadest usage of the term) is home to approximately 30 million people.[84] It has a population density of about three people per square kilometre.

As such I suspect a lot of those people if sent east after a Nazi conquest would die or at least have a very hard time.

 

[WolfBear]

As such I suspect a lot of those people if sent east after a Nazi conquest would die or at least have a very hard time.

I suspect that a lot might depend on just how much foreign aid they will get from places such as the Anglosphere. AFAIK, the US played a significant role in reducing the scale of the famine in Russia back in 1921-1922, for instance.

 

[WolfBear]

I suspect that a lot might depend on just how much foreign aid they will get from places such as the Anglosphere. AFAIK, the US played a significant role in reducing the scale of the famine in Russia back in 1921-1922, for instance.

Some information about this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Famine_Relief_Act#:~:text=The%20Russian%20Famine%20Relief%20Act,Russian%20famine%20of%201921%E2%80%9322.&text=An%20Act%20for%20the%20relief,and%20starving%20people%20of%20Russia

How the U.S. saved a starving Soviet Russia: PBS film highlights Stanford scholar's research on the 1921-23 famine | Stanford News Release

Herbert Hoover and Famine Relief to Soviet Russia, 1921–1923

In 1921 one of the most devastating famines in history threatened the lives of millions of Russians as well as the continuance of Soviet rule. Responding to a plea for help from the Soviet government. the American Relief Administration (ARA) agreed to provide famine relief in the stricken areas.

www.hoover.org

America's Gift to Famine Stricken Russia | American Experience | PBS

An American Relief Administration film tracks the path of food aid to the Soviet Union.

www.pbs.org

 

[stevep]

I suspect that a lot might depend on just how much foreign aid they will get from places such as the Anglosphere. AFAIK, the US played a significant role in reducing the scale of the famine in Russia back in 1921-1922, for instance.

True but in a situation where Germany has defeated the Soviets and then some sort of peace settlement has been agreed with the western allies - if not Germany probably loses the war to nukes - would they have the resources, will and permission to send such aid? They would need access to the region and since Germany would control European Russia and possibly Japan the Soviet Far East it would be difficult to get aid to the affected region. Plus continuing it indefinitely?

PS Just seen your 2nd post as I was writing but as I say in 1921-22 the government in charge of the affected area was willing to accept aid. In this scenario the Germans are going to have if not indirect control then a lot of influence over both Siberia and access to it.

If we're including Central Asia then there's markedly more carrying capacity but its already fairly densely populated so there is likely to be quite a conflict over land and resources between locals and incoming Russians. Which would probably be won by whoever has political control over the region when such movement starts. [That could either be Russians or locals depending on the situation after such a clear Soviet defeat].

 

[WolfBear]

True but in a situation where Germany has defeated the Soviets and then some sort of peace settlement has been agreed with the western allies - if not Germany probably loses the war to nukes - would they have the resources, will and permission to send such aid? They would need access to the region and since Germany would control European Russia and possibly Japan the Soviet Far East it would be difficult to get aid to the affected region. Plus continuing it indefinitely?

I honestly forgot about the possibility of Japan making a move on the Russian Far East if the Soviet Union truly does look like it's collapsing. Depends on just how badly Japan actually wants it, I suppose.

 

[Buba]

Central Asia then there's markedly more carrying capacity but its already fairly densely populated

That's along the rivers. The steppe was populated under Stalin and Khrushchev. The map of Kazakhstan's ethnicities is quite ... interesting

 

[WolfBear]

That's along the rivers. The steppe was populated under Stalin and Khrushchev. The map of Kazakhstan's ethnicities is quite ... interesting

Kazakh %:

Russian %:

The German % in some parts of the Kazakh SSR was in the double-digits as late as 1989:

 

[stevep]

That's along the rivers. The steppe was populated under Stalin and Khrushchev. The map of Kazakhstan's ethnicities is quite ... interesting

Didn't Khrushchev's 'virgin lands' campaign fairly quickly fade because the lands couldn't sustain prolonged agriculture? Although the Slavs settled there stayed, at least while the USSR was intact.

Mind you with the USSR being destroyed in the early 40's and then probably chaos in Kazakhstan and elsewhere you might avoid the massive increase in cotton production and hence some of the ecological collapse that's occurred in parts of the region.

 

[Buba]

True that turmoil prevents the Uzbeks making the Aral go dry.
Mind you, the Aral is not a fixture - sometimes it is there, sometimes not, i.e. when the Amu flows to the Caspian. The Aral we knew formed c.1600 (see Uzboy River).

 

[stevep]

True that turmoil prevents the Uzbeks making the Aral go dry.
Mind you, the Aral is not a fixture - sometimes it is there, sometimes not, i.e. when the Amu flows to the Caspian. The Aral we knew formed c.1600 (see Uzboy River).

Never realised that latter. Thanks.

 

[WolfBear]

Didn't Khrushchev's 'virgin lands' campaign fairly quickly fade because the lands couldn't sustain prolonged agriculture? Although the Slavs settled there stayed, at least while the USSR was intact.

Mind you with the USSR being destroyed in the early 40's and then probably chaos in Kazakhstan and elsewhere you might avoid the massive increase in cotton production and hence some of the ecological collapse that's occurred in parts of the region.

AFAIK, the shrinkage of the Aral Sea is in large part due to Soviet irrigation projects; it is not natural, at least not in modern times.

 

[Sol Zagato]

In my honest opinion, the British Empire is most likely on the path to destruction when it enters WWI, and has no chance of being saved after the Armritsar massacre of 1919.

 

[ATP]

Economical explanation - british Empire NEVER FALL,becouse it was always City banks,and they relocated to Wall Street.