And on a completely different note. . .
Boomstick's and shooty shooty bang bang's - The GUN Thread!
- Thread starter Kobold
- Start date
I guess i should've assumed things like this existed but it's still intriguing when your randomly made aware of it anyhow.
www.extremeairifles.com
Extreme .72 | EXTREME AIR RIFLES
PSI: 4500 Cal: .72 Barrel: 28" Hammer Forged Chrome Moly Custom Trigger: Timney
www.extremeairifles.com
Shipmaster Sane
You have been weighed
What is the cheapest pistol that has a commercially available loading that will reliably punch through IIIA? Something in .357 sig?
Level IIIA is speced against 240-grain .44 Magnum hollowpoints at 1400 FPS and 124-grain 9mm FMJ at 1400 FPS. .357 SIG is a 125-grain 9mm FMJ at 1350 FPS, so it's well below the specification; so is any other medium caliber handgun round. The lately resurgent 10mm Auto can push a 135-grain to 1600 FPS, which exceeds the rating but not by enough for reliable penetration.
If it must be a handgun, you're going to have to go to the big Magnum hunting revolvers, although they are extremely inefficient at such a task because they're optimized for big game as opposed to penetration.
Shipmaster Sane
You have been weighed
Oh, there are certainly handgun rounds that will punch through many types of IIIA, though IIIA is a frustratingly broad class of armor. I needed a refresher course in the exact statistics, so I did a little research over the last few days.
The biggest factor in Kevlar penetration is bullet shape and composition. Simple Copper solids out of a 5.7 pistol will punch straight through most forms of IIIA armor, several layers of it, actually.
You'll have to forgive the random timestamps, if they come up, just re-set to 0:00.
5.7x28mm, Elite Ammunition 28gr T6 (All copper), VS Level IIIA Body Armor, FiveSeveN
5.7x28mm, 36gr Copper Solid, DevastaTOR 2.0, Elite Ammunition Velocity, Gel, Armor
What Is the Black Dragon Fang 5.7x28mm from Vanguard Outfitters? Ballistic Test! Buffman - R.A.N.G.E. • 142K views
Fort Scott Ammo Test Pt 2
9x19mm, 65gr SCB, Xtreme Defender, Underwood (#863), Can it penetrate soft armor?
Ventura 10mm Lehigh Extreme Defense/Penetrator Armor Test
Can the "World's Fastest" Production Pistol Defeat Armor? FK Brno 7.5mm vs. IIIA Armor
22tcm vs 5.7x28 vs 7.62x25
PSM Shooting: 5.45x18mm vs 7.62x25mm on Soft Armor
Important to note the 22TCM penetrates despite being a lead-tipped hollow point, and that 7.62x25 penetrates some IIIA kevlar but not others. Frustratingly, "Xtreme Penetrators" are significantly inferior to "Xtreme Defense/Defender" rounds in defeating armor, due to the higher speed and smaller contact surface of the later.
The similarity of Brno 7.5 to 9x25 Dillon (and the 9x25s FMJ/Solid copper monoliths VS FK's hollowpoint-only) suggests to me that 9x25 Dillion would penetrate, if anything, better.
I suspect .357 sig with "Xtreme Defender" would punch though, but on inspection there doesnt seem to be any advantage, Fort Scott doesnt make any conical rounds for it like they do 9mm, anyway.
After doing some research, these appear to be the options for AP civilian handgun usage.
5.7
the FN 5.7 is too expensive, but the Ruger 57 might be viable, we'll have to see where the price settles once it comes out, and if it isn't, you know, a piece of shit.
Price: ??? (I think the preorders for the 57 are <600)
9mm
+P Xtreme Defender rounds can penetrate some IIIAs, though Fort Scott conicals seem more viable.
Price: ~$600 While a full length 9mm can be had cheaper, and may work, a longer barrel would probably be advised.
22TCM
Not many choices here, one bullet and basically one gun. That said, the lack of FMJ available after a cursory search (with some JHP listed as FMJ maddeningly enough) rustles my jimmies in a deep way even though it's still capable of penetrating IIIA with JHP. As I said before, IIIA is a wide range, and while TCM might be just as good as any other in it's field, the missed potential of an FMJ or copper solid in .22TCM is very frustrating.
Also, this round really benefits from a 6" barrel, but those are all custom jobs, more wasted potential.
Price: $600-$700 for a full size RIA. These usually come with an easy conversion to 9mm included, so thats a bonus.
9x25 Dillon
You'd more or less have to just do a long-barreled glock conversion, but with similar velocity to the TCM and 7.5 BRNO, and marginally more energy behind the same projectile design that worked best for the 10mm, with a smaller diameter, I think this is definitely something that could work. You could theoretically reload Fort Scott's into these for a fantastically penetrative bullet, but I'm really not looking at reloading for this thought experiment.
Price: $700-$800 was what I saw as estimates on buying the right glock and converting it.
Until I save up more money, anyway, I'll just be eternally seething that no one's thought to make Copper Solids for 7.62x25 Tokarev.
Now for a lineup of next generation weapons being developed for the Army to bid on that will lead to nowhere.
They all look pretty lame but the Sig option seems less lame of them all.
And Textron making firearms... huh... their gun looks more complicated then their AirLand Scorpion Plane.
They all look pretty lame but the Sig option seems less lame of them all.
And Textron making firearms... huh... their gun looks more complicated then their AirLand Scorpion Plane.
UltimatePaladin
Well-known member
-Youtuber, describing the Boberg XR9S and XR45S Bullpup Pistols.
Shipmaster Sane
You have been weighed
Fort Scott Munitions TUI Ammo
Check out the test later in the video, punches a clean hole through a level IIIA kevlar vest on TOP of a level IIA Kevlar vest, and thats with a relatively short barrel, meaning we're not seeing the maximum potential of the round. My theory is that the entire TUI moniker was nothing but an excuse to sell pistol caliber AP without any oversight, and good for them.
Check out the test later in the video, punches a clean hole through a level IIIA kevlar vest on TOP of a level IIA Kevlar vest, and thats with a relatively short barrel, meaning we're not seeing the maximum potential of the round. My theory is that the entire TUI moniker was nothing but an excuse to sell pistol caliber AP without any oversight, and good for them.
Duke Nukem
Hail to the king baby
Most badass and murican video i have seen in a while.
For those who need more ammo. Palmetto State Armory has just restocked so go now and buy your damn ammo.
What Bullpup you got? When I get back from Korea I am thinking between a Tavor and the Kel-tec if the gun store I go to still has it.
I would love a FAMAS but..to expensive.
So instead my french loving ass has been looking at MAS 49. And a MAS 36.
As well as some French hand guna
@Spartan303: I know you're looking to get an ACR, but have you considered getting a Bren 2 instead?
If Fabryka Broni Radom could get their shit together and get the MSBS Grot in the country, I'd recommend that instead, because it's literally an improved ACR, but the Bren 2 is next best thing.
If Fabryka Broni Radom could get their shit together and get the MSBS Grot in the country, I'd recommend that instead, because it's literally an improved ACR, but the Bren 2 is next best thing.
Alex Zedra even has Frostmourne!!!
Tiamat
I've seen the future...
Hey, that looks like a wall in my own room! Just kidding...sorta. 😜
On a serious note, my local gun store had some of the new Ruger 57s arrive and was able to do a size and grip comparison between that and an FN 57. Both fire a somewhat long cartridge, for a pistol, so you probably want large hands or long fingers to get a good grip on either one. Not the firearms fault of course, it’s what they designed the handgun around. I’m a big guy and I had an issue trying to get my thumb to reach and activate the magazine release. And 57 ammo even before the current ammo shortage was scarcer than hens teeth at times and twice as expensive as 9mm, though that might change in the future.
And on another note, I now personally own a Tavor X95, among several other firearms. I know there was a discussion about bullpups earlier so I’ll post a review on that sometime if anyone’s interested.
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Thoughts on this statement?
Is it easier to learn the fundamentals of firearms (and ultimately master) with a rifle versus using a handgun?
Is it easier to learn the fundamentals of firearms (and ultimately master) with a rifle versus using a handgun?
It's true on the face of it. Longarms are inherently steadier and easier to aim. But does that matter when you are standing twenty feet away from your attacker, at most? There's other factors, like maneuvering through hallways and storage that a pistol does better than a longarm.
Shipmaster Sane
You have been weighed
Short rifles maneuver comparably well to pistols, and have many advantages.
I've also never heard of a single case of a HD failure due to weapon length, you can absolutely defend yourself indoors with a full scale rifle.
Ultimately pistols are never "best", theres nothing they do best besides not weigh a lot and not take up a lot of room when you've got them holstered or stored.
As for mastering them, I suppose yes, it is harder because you've got no third point of contact and a different sight picture.
You can teach a 17 year old kid with no shooting experience to accurately hit targets up to 300m in a day or two depending on how good they are at listening.
Takes a decent bit longer to get real accurate on pistol. They just say do it like this, and don't really tell you how to properly aim or anything