Big changes for the same money.

[ATP]

You do not change History,politicians,money for army - but use it smarter.

For example - i read book "Geneza Lotniczego wrzesnia" by Klaudiusz Klobuch/my translation - genezis of 1939 in air/
Book is about why polish air forces sucked so much,but - in last chapter,author played with alternate History.

Still,polish air farces was neglected after 1926,just like in OTL,still it was given to general Rayski who spend most remaining money on medium bomber - But,we have 2 changes - stronger GH engines instead of Bristol for planes later,and development of replacment radial engines fro P.38 fighter bomber.

As a result,in 1939 we would have 512 instead of 392 planes, P.24 fighters instead of P.11c,medium bombers with french engines/P.37C instead of P.37M/,and P.38 fighter bombers.
Additionally,old P.&a would be used as light bombers.

All for the same money,without changing politicians or commanders.

So,i invite you to create similar scenarios,when you made your/or other country/ stronger for the same money and without political changes.

 

[Buba]

I take that by GH you mean GR? If yes - I agree. Buying a license for the "K" family in 1929 to be followed by a GR14K monoculture from 1932 onward.

The PZL 37 - regardless of how technically good it was - was a waste of money. Poland could not build enough of them nor provide the airfields allowing it to take off with maximum bomb load. The bomber could take off from extant airfields with same bomb load a plane half the size and price could. The PZL Sum would have had the same capability - at half the Zlotys.
Instead of the PZL 24 something like the Curtis Hawk or Fokker DXXI could had been in production from '36 onward.

I love the premise - "more bang for same buck". France and Italy would be fascinating.
I only fear gunbois crawling out into the sunlight and preaching the superiority and "warwinningness" of pistol X over revolver Y ... whereas we all know that the difference between winning and losing a war is in the choice of bayonet.

 

[ATP]

I take that by GH you mean GR? If yes - I agree. Buying a license for the "K" family in 1929 to be followed by a 14GRK monoculture from 1932 onward.

The PZL 37 - regardless of how technically good it was - was a waste of money. Poland could not build enough of them nor provide the airfields allowing it to take off with maximum bomb load. The bomber could take off from extant airfields with same bomb load a plane half the size and price could. The PZL SUm would have had the same capability - at half the Zlotys.
Instead of the PZL 24 something like the Curtis Hawk or Fokker DXXI could had been in production from '36 onward.

I love the premise - "more bang for same buck". France and Italy would be fascinating.
I only fear gunbois crawling out into the sunlight and preaching the superiority and "warwinningness" of pistol X over revolver Y ... whereas we all know that the difference between winning and losing a war is in the choice of bayonet.

Indeed.We should produce Fokker D.21 or Ki27,and P.46 instead of P.37.If we did so,we could have about 600,not 512 like in book planes.
Unfortunatelly,entire idea is not changing politicians and commanders,and Rayski,commander of polish air forces,was fan of medium bombers.
So,not possible,at least in this thread.

Here,to made it extra hard to achieve,you must get better bang with the same money,commanders and politicians.
It is GH,polish engine Mors.Author want stronger variant for P.38.
In my opinion,they should buy another french engine GR14N and built P.48 Lampart from the start.GH 1620 engine,even in stronger version,would be always too weak.

 

[Buba]

Oh, the Mors engine. Another Polish never were. Countries with much stronger industrial and academic bases could not develop engines from more or less scratch.
The GR14N is too late - the 14K must do. The Romanians (and some other license buyers) squeezed out just over 1000HP out of it, that'll have to do. Not wasting money on some needless things like destroyers or 220mm siege mortars Poland could had purchased 100 octane avgas - that would had pushed those engines to 1200HP or so.
Another more bang for the buck - instead of BAR buy license for M24, ZB26 or Darne (or half a dozen other candidates). It'd been a much, much better squad LMG. Practically anything is better as SAW than the BAR.

 

[ATP]

Oh, the Mors engine. Another Polish never were. Countries with much stronger industrial and academic bases could not develop engines from more or less scratch.
The GR14N is too late - the 14K must do. The Romanians (and some other license buyers) squeezed out just over 1000HP out of it, that'll have to do. Not wasting money on some needless things like destroyers or 220mm siege mortars Poland could had purchased 100 octane avgas - that would had pushed those engines to 1200HP or so.
Another more bang for the buck - instead of BAR buy license for M24, ZB26 or Darne. A much, much better squad LMG.

Indeed - but,in that case,it would be more P.24,and P.38 would never be produced.Could be done with the same money and commander.
Since P.38 with stronger Mors would be no faster then 450/h,then P.24 with 14K would be almost as good/430/h/
And,since we would produce one new engine,not two,there would be less money spend on factories.
Maybe 550 planes instead of 512?

 

[Buba]

Forget about the PZL 38 - it was technically impossible. It was to be powered by air-cooled inlines - the mythical "Foka" - capable of delivering the specified power at intended weight only if made of mithril or other such metal.
In order to have a twin engined heavy fighter/fghter bomber in quantity in '39:
- kill PZL 38 ASAP (in the crib, preferably), and go for a 14K powered twin - e.g. a realistic PZL 48 or simply a PZL 54 in '35/36
- commission Breguet to work on a 14K powered 690 during the year or so he had to wait for GR to cough up a working example of the 14M (a dud)
- same, but with Potez 630
- Fokker G1, again with GR14K

IMO in all the above cases mass production by mid '38 should be possible. All would be like the Me-110 - maybe slightly smaller and a as fast or faster.

Forget the PZL 24 - sooner go for the light bomber PZL 46 Sum which - with a Pegasus - was just as fast as the fighter ... with GR14K would be +450km/h.

If you wish to fantasise - the IAR 80 is the way to go. Should be possible by '37 ...
Or Heja from Hungary.

If you wish for quantity - single engine aircraft cost about 60% of twins ...

I insist on you visiting the DWS.org forum and reading the various WI and POD threads dedicated to Polish armament.

 

[ATP]

Forget about the PZL 38 - it was technically impossible. It was to be powered by air-cooled inlines - the mythical "Foka" - capable of delivering the specified power at intended weight only if made of mithril or other such metal.
In order to have a twin engined heavy fighter/fghter bomber in quantity in '39:
- kill PZL 38 ASAP (in the crib, preferably), and go for a 14K powered twin - e.g. a realistic PZL 48 or simply a PZL 54 in '35/36
- commission Breguet to work on a 14K powered 690 during the year or so he had to wait for GR to cough up a working example of the 14M (a dud)
- same, but with Potez 630
- Fokker G1, again with GR14K

IMO in all the above cases mass production by mid '38 should be possible. All would be like the Me-110 - maybe slightly smaller and a as fast or faster.

Forget the PZL 24 - sooner go for the light bomber PZL 46 Sum which - with a Pegasus - was just as fast as the fighter ... with GR14K would be +450km/h.

If you wish to fantasise - the IAR 80 is the way to go. Should be possible by '37 ...
Or Heja from Hungary.

If you wish for quantity - single engine aircraft cost about 60% of twins ...

I insist on you visiting the DWS.org forum and reading the various WI and POD threads dedicated to Polish armament.

Unfortunatelly,not possible with Rajski as commander.

And,to made things harder,i decide to not change politicians,commanders and money,only things which commanders would do - for example,french engine instead of english.
Not possible of killing P.37 or P.38,becouse Rajski supported it.
But - replacing P.38 from the start with P.48 and wait for french engines was possibility.

 

[Buba]

It is RaYski, not RaJski.
And he seems to have had an obsession with puny engines.

 

[ATP]

It is RaYski, not RaJski.
And he seems to have had an obsession with puny engines.

My mistake.
And it was obsesion with medium bomber,as a result there was no money for both fighter and light bomber,so he decide that we build fighter bomber with 2 puny engines,becouse then it would be capable of dog fighting normal fighters.
It would worked,if we could made them - unfortunatelly dude who could made them,Nowkuński,died in 1936.
So,we have obsolate panes as result in 1939.
By the way,book is good in showing how exactly out air forces was fucked.