United States Biden administration policies and actions - megathread
- Thread starter Tyzuris
- Start date
Terthna
Professional Lurker
We all knew that Biden was going to ensure that nothing remains which Trump could claim credit for, so this isn't surprising. Neither is him essentially ending any hope that social media companies might be held to task for their unwritten ideological censorship policies.
The later is going to cause pressure to build up into a second populist revolt thats bigger madder and stronger then the last one.
DarthOne
☦️
One hopes...personally, I just see a lot of talk.
History Learner
Well-known member
The fact you immediately resort to Whataboutism should say a lot about Israel's actions, beyond the fact you've equated Humanitarian aid with billions in Military funding.
It is almost as if they are casting stones when they live in glass houses. Seems shockingly familiar.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
No, I'm not resorting to Whataboutism. I'm honestly trying to see where you stand.
Do you or do you not care that the explicitly stated goal of the Palestinian side of the conflict is to destroy Israel as a nation and wipe its people out?
History Learner
Well-known member
Except that is exactly Whataboutism; rather than respond to the charges at hand, you immediately resort to citing outside things to achieve a moral equivalency. This is exactly how the term came about and even in that exact context, in which the USSR during the Cold War would bring up actions or policies by the United States to deflect specific criticisms of itself. That you attempt this between Hamas and the State of Israel really says a lot about the legitimacy and morality of said State, no?
To answer your specific question, I would encourage you to read up on the situation because you seem seriously misinformed about the situation. The Palestinians at large have, for quite sometime, recognized the two state solution including even Yasser Arafat as far as back as the 1970s. Even Hamas, whom the current fighting is centered around, has repeatedly stated it would accept a truce upon Pre-1967 borders. There's nothing about genocide or destroying the State of Israel in that, at all. If you want my opinion, the restoration of Pre-Six Day War borders, the right of return for Palestinian refugees and reparations is a solid deal, recognizing the demographic realities on the ground and the history of the region. Otherwise, I support a One State Solution with the State of Israel ended in favor of non-denominational State of Palestine, in a form of multi-faith/ethnic Republic.
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Bear Ribs
Well-known member
Palestinians have rejected many, many offers that would have given them a their own state and resorted to violence every time. The fact that they might state they'd accept a truce on pre-1967 borders means jack, because they rejected more than that when it was offered to them. In fact, that rejection is how Hamas came to power, because they had that territory and Hamas pissed it away in their coup.
Ariel Sharon gave them the entire Gaza Strip, free, in 2005, withdrawing all settlers from the 1967 borders and leaving many massive greenhouses that the Palestinians could have used to jumpstart a new agriculture industry (Which the Israelis had built for themselves to jumpstart their own agricultural industry before that). There's numerous pictures you can find of Israeli settlers being dragged out of their homes by Israeli armed forces. Hamas promptly staged a coup of the Palestinian Authority, rose to power, and used their new land as bases to launch more rocket attacks on Israel. Let me repeat, this wasn't the 1967 borders, this was Israel pulling back from those borders and giving the Palestinians more land that that.
Oh yeah, and Palestinians destroyed most of the greenhouses.
As a result it's somewhat difficult to accept claims that all they want is the 1967 borders back, especially when their Covenant specifically says that they will never accept that.
Article 13 of the Hamas Covenant:
"[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility."
Terthna
Professional Lurker
In short, you (whether knowingly or not; and I'm not sure which is worse) support the ethnic cleansing of every Jew in Israel; because that is what would happen if Palestine took over the region. The State of Israel already is multi-faith/ethnic; many Muslims do actually live there in peace. It's the Palestinians who refuse to tolerate the idea of peaceful co-existence.
History Learner
Well-known member
Except they haven't done that, while Israel has also maintained an economically crippling blockade on Gaza.
Again, support for Israel seems based on not having any real knowledge on the region. Case in point, episodes such as the Gaza beach explosion where the IDF outright murdered civilians in 2006, long before any Hamas coup occurred.
Except the Covenant is decades old and Hamas has distanced itself from it, something even Israeli sources have noted has occurred.
I find it very interesting the idea of a multi-ethnic state automatically means genocide in your mind. As for the idea they live in peace, that's utterly baseless:
Bear Ribs
Well-known member
Yes, they have. They were offered 97% of that at Oslo and given it for free in 2005.
Also Israel cannot maintain an economically crippling blockade on Gaza. A pretty fat chunk of that border is with Egypt and Egypt is in full control of it, Israel has nothing to do with that so if there's a reason Gaza's under blockade, it can't just be Israel.
What's that have to do with what you quoted? For somebody who screams about whataboutism so quickly you sure are fast to reach for it yourself, especially considering that Hamas took over January 25, 2006 and the explosion was June 9, 2006 so "long before" is only correct if you happen to be named Bizarro.
Also nobody's quite sure what caused that explosion so the fact that you presume it was Israeli murder says quite a bit about your levels of bias.
The Covenant is decades old... but the 1967 borders aren't? Curious how selective that is.
And the article doesn't say what you claimed, it merely affirms that Hamas claims it only wants to return to those borders (Except they also want Jerusalem and demand the Right of Return), which again is a claim that isn't supported by their actions. They've been offered those borders multiple times and actually had them in 2005, which they gave up in favor of shooting.
As far as trusting Hamas' account, we need to look at the histories of the nations involved to see who has a record of truth and keeping their word.
In 1973, Israel ceded the entire Sinai Peninsula to Egypt, in exchange for a peace treaty. Egypt kept the treaty, and Israel pulled out of the area in stages, ending in giving it to Egypt fully by 1982 where it's remained since. This establishes fairly well that Israel is both willing to cede land and will abide by it's agreements with anybody who comes in good faith.
In 1950 Jordan annexed the West Bank and East Jerusalem. In 1954, it granted Jordanian citizenship to all Palestinians in that area and expelled the Jews by force. In 1970, "Black September," those former Palestinian citizens attempted a coup and tried to take over, ousting the Jordanian government.
In three waves at approx. 1948, 1967, and 1973, around 400,000 Palestinians migrated to Kuwait (That's nearly a quarter of Kuwait's population). They then proceeded to join forces with Saddam Hussein in an attempt to take over Kuwait, and were expelled in the 90s.
Lebanon took in Palestinians in waves at 1948 and 1967. By 1975 the Palestinians attempted a coup and caused the Lebanese Civil War that lasted until 1989 and killed between 120,000 and 150,000 deaths.
Overall it's fairly clear that one group has a lot of trouble keeping it's word and living peacefully with it's neighbors, and it's not Israel. This also answers why a multi-ethnic state of Israeli and Palestinians can be equated to genocide, Palestinians have a proven track record of starting civil wars and attempting coups in every nation they gather in, and a long history of rhetoric of hating Jews.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
A Palestinian state will never be multi-ethnic; you'd have to be utterly delusional to think otherwise, considering that they've made that perfectly clear with their actions over the course of generations. For Pete's sake; their children's television programming teaches that all Jews must be killed:
Also, that article? Doesn't actually disprove that Israeli Muslims live in peace. All it does is present the results of a poll on whether or not Arabs should be expelled from Israel; whatever that's supposed to mean, considering the article itself admits that "The survey makes no distinction between Palestinian Arabs of the West Bank and citizens of Israel in its question about whether Arabs should be expelled from Israel." Which could very well mean that most of those who said they should be expelled are probably referring to the former group and not the latter, which include the Muslims I was referring to.
what Isreal should have done is kick all of the Palastinians out 40 years ago.
Yes they would have caught flack for it at the time but it would insure that they just have one thing people bitch about rather then an open wound for their enemies to fuck them over with over and over again with.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
You've made it clear that you buy the Palestinian propaganda hook, line, and sinker.
I'm not going to waste my time trying to argue with you.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
Everything begins with discussion and debate. This was never going to be an overnight affair even if Trump had won last year.
Strap yourselves in chaps. We've a long road ahead of us.
As for the current situation in the Holy Land, it speaks to the phenomenal restraint of the Israeli state (instead of its villainy) when it hasn't just stomped Palestine into the dirt a long time ago. They've every reason to be fresh out of patience with Hamas yet have held off on just pulling the trigger and bringing this mess to a bloody and swift end.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
I'm sure those who need to believe that a particular group of people are responsible for all their problems in life, would find an endless number of excuses to rake the Jews, I mean "Israel", over the coals; they're just too tempting of a target.
Wargamer08
Well-known member
Sure, and that would be something they would have to deal with. But is it as bad as constant rocket attacks?
Terthna
Professional Lurker
Of course not; I'm just pointing out that they'd probably still have to deal with much of the world arguing, sometimes violently, that they shouldn't be allowed to exist as a country. Or a people, for that matter.