Battletech Battletech Morality ranking!

King Arts

Well-known member
So I don't know too much about Battletech except the absolute basics of the Inner Sphere nations. But I'm curious let's say you are reincarnated into the Battletech world and you get too choose which nation in the Inner sphere you would be born into, you would be minor nobility your family only in control of one planet. Which option is the best and why? Free World League, Capellan Confederation, Federated Suns, Draconis Combine, or Lyran Commonwealth?

Also would your answer change if you were a commoner?
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
Free World's League: Many local polities that struggle against each other for control of the Captain General's chair. It's a mess that might not be too bad as a planetary ruler...as long as you're not near a border. IF you get to pick the planet you could probably get one that's fairly well built up and not a back water hell hole. Not my first choice.

Capellan Confederation: Not a chance in hell. In most of the published timeline this place is a hell hole. Even as a noble you really have no control of your planetary future. Death comes calling in many varied and ugly forms. This place is tied for last for both options.

Federated Suns: Definitely more potential here as a noble/planetary governor. You have leeway with how you run the place and just need to make sure you help support the military arm of the FedSuns. If I can pick the planet I'm on as a commoner, this one has lots of potential.

Draconis Combine: I just can't. Even as a noble, you're stuck in their stupid "Magic Bushido Hands". As a commoner, this one ties with the Capellan Confederation.

Lyran Alliance: Another good possibility for places to go as a noble, and may be the best place to be a 'Commoner'. Merchant of Venice I'll be!

So, as a Noble I'd choose the Federated Suns.

As a commoner I'd choose the Lyran Alliance.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Federated Suns tend to mostly get to be the good guys throughout the setting. There's only a few narrow situations where they won't be the best choice for a commoner. That said there're some fairly specific exceptions and this is going to vary a bit between timelines, I'd definitely pick somewhere else during the Federated Commonwealth civil war f'rex. Lyran Commonwealth are usually going to be slightly more desirable for a noble due to how friggin' rich their nobles are, though again watch out for the civil war.

During the Fall of the Star League Capella would actually be the best choice. Barbara Liao was possibly the only Liao in the entire timeline to have her head screwed on straight, they were away from the main fighting, and she positioned all her forces for maximum advantage when the Star League fell and made bank. That said if there's any other era available to pick... almost... you want to pick it instead of the Fall of the Star League. The only periods I might see as less attractive are maybe the Jihad and Dark Age. Even in the popular third/fourth succession war era with Mad Max and Romano in charge, I'd take the Capellans over the Draconis Combine, as both a commoner and a noble. I'm not entirely sure it wouldn't be better to be a commoner than a noble in the Combine given how often they wind up committing seppuku, that said the Combine also likes to have their commoners in Chattel slavery so... yeah Combine is dead last forever at everything involving morals.

As a bonus, of the periphery The Taurian "Get off my lawn" Concordat is generally a fan favorite for a reason. Best education in the inner sphere easily beating out all the great houses, decent civil liberties, strong democratic tradition. As long as you accept that "Davion" and "Satan" are synonyms you can do well as a commoner or a noble in space Texas.

Clan Blood Spirit is my favorite clan for much the same reason, their entire shtick is telling the rest of the Clans to stay off their lawn and they mostly keep to themselves. Their culture emphasizes personal artistic expression, they expect parents to actually raise their own children in a family environment with the creches being more like preschools where adorable little Blood Spirit kids learn important civic lessons like "If you see a Burrock immediately dump the mag in him," and they have an extremely strong sense of unity compared to everybody else. Also even if you wash out and wind up laborer caste they're still going to make sure you have enough combat training to defend yourself and give you a chance to get back into the warrior caste via the Grand Melee, because Blood Spirit doesn't really grok how the clan caste system is supposed to work.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
From 3050 on as planetary ruler who is not too much of an asshole, I would choose Federated Suns, as the central government has very hands off approach and doesn't care what you do as long as you don't violate the core freedoms of the citizenry too much, pay taxes and don't do treason.

Lyrans edge out the FWL because I like the strudel.

Free Worlds League is still a good place to be, but too much of internal disunity for me to like.

Draconis Combine is a way down from FWL, well under the ''good place'' threshold. It's an rigid totalitarian state, doing a Shogun cosplay with tons of written and unwritten rules, each can cause your downfall.

Capellan Confederation is a mix of imperial China and North Korea. As a planetary ruler I would be enforcer of state oppression (even in DC I would have more leeway to go easy on population), with Maskirovka making sure I don't stray from my sacred duty. Also the head of state is considered a deity after Jihad.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
Free World's League: Many local polities that struggle against each other for control of the Captain General's chair. It's a mess that might not be too bad as a planetary ruler...as long as you're not near a border. IF you get to pick the planet you could probably get one that's fairly well built up and not a back water hell hole. Not my first choice.

Capellan Confederation: Not a chance in hell. In most of the published timeline this place is a hell hole. Even as a noble you really have no control of your planetary future. Death comes calling in many varied and ugly forms. This place is tied for last for both options.

Federated Suns: Definitely more potential here as a noble/planetary governor. You have leeway with how you run the place and just need to make sure you help support the military arm of the FedSuns. If I can pick the planet I'm on as a commoner, this one has lots of potential.

Draconis Combine: I just can't. Even as a noble, you're stuck in their stupid "Magic Bushido Hands". As a commoner, this one ties with the Capellan Confederation.

Lyran Alliance: Another good possibility for places to go as a noble, and may be the best place to be a 'Commoner'. Merchant of Venice I'll be!

So, as a Noble I'd choose the Federated Suns.

As a commoner I'd choose the Lyran Alliance.
I mean for the Free World's league don't all the successor states have it so technically anyone could become the new leader but it never happens? Like all the Captian Generals are Marricks, and the Coodrinators Kurita, The First Prince is always Davion, etc.
And like I said I only skimmed the wiki a bit, but it does seem like the Draconis Combine is the worst since they ban certain religions and try to make everyone be Buddhist Shinto, I thought the Capellan's were neutral towards domestic religion policies. The Federated Suns have an Anti Pope so I guess you could call them Catholic of some type, the Lyran's are Lutheran but they do allow freedom of religion, and so does the Free World's league.

Federated Suns tend to mostly get to be the good guys throughout the setting. There's only a few narrow situations where they won't be the best choice for a commoner. That said there're some fairly specific exceptions and this is going to vary a bit between timelines, I'd definitely pick somewhere else during the Federated Commonwealth civil war f'rex. Lyran Commonwealth are usually going to be slightly more desirable for a noble due to how friggin' rich their nobles are, though again watch out for the civil war.

During the Fall of the Star League Capella would actually be the best choice. Barbara Liao was possibly the only Liao in the entire timeline to have her head screwed on straight, they were away from the main fighting, and she positioned all her forces for maximum advantage when the Star League fell and made bank. That said if there's any other era available to pick... almost... you want to pick it instead of the Fall of the Star League. The only periods I might see as less attractive are maybe the Jihad and Dark Age. Even in the popular third/fourth succession war era with Mad Max and Romano in charge, I'd take the Capellans over the Draconis Combine, as both a commoner and a noble. I'm not entirely sure it wouldn't be better to be a commoner than a noble in the Combine given how often they wind up committing seppuku, that said the Combine also likes to have their commoners in Chattel slavery so... yeah Combine is dead last forever at everything involving morals.

As a bonus, of the periphery The Taurian "Get off my lawn" Concordat is generally a fan favorite for a reason. Best education in the inner sphere easily beating out all the great houses, decent civil liberties, strong democratic tradition. As long as you accept that "Davion" and "Satan" are synonyms you can do well as a commoner or a noble in space Texas.

Clan Blood Spirit is my favorite clan for much the same reason, their entire shtick is telling the rest of the Clans to stay off their lawn and they mostly keep to themselves. Their culture emphasizes personal artistic expression, they expect parents to actually raise their own children in a family environment with the creches being more like preschools where adorable little Blood Spirit kids learn important civic lessons like "If you see a Burrock immediately dump the mag in him," and they have an extremely strong sense of unity compared to everybody else. Also even if you wash out and wind up laborer caste they're still going to make sure you have enough combat training to defend yourself and give you a chance to get back into the warrior caste via the Grand Melee, because Blood Spirit doesn't really grok how the clan caste system is supposed to work.
There are like 20 clans and I don't know shit about them except that Clan Wolf is apparently the good guys who will remake the Star League or something. As for the Periphery also don't know much except Magistracy of Canopus, and Aurigan reach because it was place where new game was made.

From 3050 on as planetary ruler who is not too much of an asshole, I would choose Federated Suns, as the central government has very hands off approach and doesn't care what you do as long as you don't violate the core freedoms of the citizenry too much, pay taxes and don't do treason.

Lyrans edge out the FWL because I like the strudel.

Free Worlds League is still a good place to be, but too much of internal disunity for me to like.

Draconis Combine is a way down from FWL, well under the ''good place'' threshold. It's an rigid totalitarian state, doing a Shogun cosplay with tons of written and unwritten rules, each can cause your downfall.

Capellan Confederation is a mix of imperial China and North Korea. As a planetary ruler I would be enforcer of state oppression (even in DC I would have more leeway to go easy on population), with Maskirovka making sure I don't stray from my sacred duty. Also the head of state is considered a deity after Jihad.
Wait you said you'd choose the Federated Suns, but that the Lyrans would edge them out? So why wouldn't you choose Lyrans?
And I agree with the Draonis Combine analysis they do seem to be one of the worse places in the Inner sphere sure they are strong and large, but well they are oppressive and try to force everyone into Japanese religion and culture.
As for the Capellan's they are now doing the God king thing with the Liao's? I thought they were ok with religions like Christianity or whatever as long as those religions don't get involved into politics? I knew they favored buddhism because they were modeled after China, with a bit of Star Ship Troopers Federation where you have to work to get citizenship, and they betray their neighbors. But I thought internally they did not oppress religions?
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
There are like 20 clans and I don't know shit about them except that Clan Wolf is apparently the good guys who will remake the Star League or something. As for the Periphery also don't know much except Magistracy of Canopus, and Aurigan reach because it was place where new game was made.
In truth most of the clans have, like, a few paragraphs and a single shtick to make them stand out slightly. Diamond Sharks are Ferengi, Goliath Scorpions are stoned out of their minds, Nova Cats have mysterious pyromancy visions, Cloud Cobras are super religious in some vague way, etc.

This may help:

Star League-ism: You have two cows. A goat takes over the barn. One cow blows up the goat's home, then fights with the goat over the barn. The goat is killed. The fighting cow leaves the farm while the other cow proceeds to systematically nuke parts of the farm for the hell of it.

Rim Worlds Republic-ism: You have two cows. They are nuked along with the rest of your nation because of what your goat did.

OutworldsAlliance -ism: You have two cows. They are pacifists who also happen to be ace fighter pilots. You are invaded by Combine cows. You slice off the heads of some of the cows and drop said heads on remaining Combine cows. You still are pacifists.

Taurian-ism: You have two cows. The cows openly carry nuclear weapons. No one messes with you because you will nuke their asses if they look at you sideways.

Magistry of Canopian-ism: You have two cows. One buys rank in your military, the other tours human space as a novelty in a "pleasure circus."

Free Rasslhague-ism: You fight for hundreds of years for freedom for your two cows. You win freedom for you and your cows. Your cows are subsequently made Bondscows to Clan Wolf and Clan Ghost Bear. Your life sucks.

St.Ives-ism: You have two cows. You commit treason. You and your cows are seen as good guys. You are also seen as an independent nation. Neither statement is true.

Free Worlds League-ism: You have two cows. That's it. No one cares.

Lyran-ism: You have two cows. One starts a business and becomes insanely rich. The other buys rank in your military and subsequently loses three assault regiments and two worlds to a lance of pirates in Locusts.

Draconis Combine-ism: You have two cows. One charges a Smoke Jaguar Dire Wolf in a Phoenix Hawk. He dies honorably and quickly. The other refuses to charge and is ordered to slice open his belly to atone for dishonor and having a brain. You are messed up.

Capellen-ism: You have two cows. Your Celestial Wisdom orders them to participate in cow wave attacks against the FedSuns. You still lose half your nation.

Davion-ism: You have two cows. One joins the military and is hailed as a hero. The other runs the impoverished farm and keeps the first cow fed. You don't care about the second cow.

ComStar-ism: You have two cows. They are neutral in all things. They run a telephone company. Those are unusually tanky-looking cows though...

WoB-ism: You have two cows. They walk around in robes with math symbols. Everyone makes fun of the cows. The cows nuke everyone.

FedCom-ism: You have two cows. One can't fight but is rich. One fights expertly, but is poor. Instead of working together, your cows blame each other for their faults and fight a war with each other.

Wolf-ism: You have two cows, distantly related. Both are ************, one has a good PR agent. They beat the crap out of each other and sit in opposite corners of the room, refusing to speak to each other.

Jade Falcon-ism: You have two cows. One gets his entire Cluster killed by a guy with a physically impossible explosion. The other kills the best Mechwarrior in human space with a jump jet to the head. People can't decide if you are munchy or unlucky.

Smoke Jaguar-ism: You have two cows. Both think that Colonel Kurtz from Apocalypse Now was an appropriate role-model. You slaughter any cow who so much as moos in your direction, then wonder why the farm teams up to crash your barn and put you the ****** down.

Ghost Bear-ism: You have two cows. You have good PR. Everyone sees the cows as nice. They ignore the fact the cows threaten massacres more often than the Jaguar cows.

Steel Viper-ism: You have two cows. Both are super-elite. You exist to lose to the Falcon cows. Sorry.

Snow Raven-ism: You have two cows. They can't fight their way out of a paper bag on the ground. Good thing you won't let anyone reach the ground.

Goliath Scorpion-ism: You have two cows. Both are stoned.

Cloud Cobra-ism: You have two cows. They are almost as messed up as the Scorpion cows, just without the drugs. What was that Marx said about religion being opium?

Nova Cat-ism: You have two cows. They see things more than the Scorpions do, without the drugs.

Star Adder-ism: You have two cows. They build an insane army and navy. They just sit there, doing nothing.

Coyote-ism: You have two cows. Both are perceived as losers. You pioneer all the funkiest new farm-yard equpment. You are still seen as losers.

Blood Spirit-ism: You have two cows. They sit at home and talk to no one.

Fire Mandril-ism: You have two cows. They fight with each other more than with anyone else. People ignore you.

Diamond Shark-ism: You have two cows. Both are part of a warrior society that disdains everything else. Both cows still focus on money.

Hells' Horse-ism: You have two cows. They follow combined arms doctrine. People drop Inferno IV missiles on your cows and have ribs for a month.

Hellion-ism: You have two cows. One has a temper tantrum and is ridiculed by all others. The other cow only fights to the first hit thinking that alone determines the victor, he is quickly destroyed by enemy cows.

Wolverine-ism: You had two cows. Both got sent to the abbatoir for being unruly. All that remained of them was a single hoof that hopped off and told anyone who would listen that someday it will rule the galaxy

Nueva Castile-ism: You have to cows. One speaks Spanish and has been around for a long time. The other cow speaks Arabic, though it is not Arabic, and invaded some two hundred fifty years form somewhere that it does not even know. The Spanish speaking cow dreams about the reconquista, while the other tenuosly holds on to the lands that it took from the Spanish Cow.

Hanseatic League-ism: You have two cows. Both are Captain-Generals, vying to force each other out of business while keeping their markets closed to outsiders, by force, if necessary.

Pirate-ism: You have two cows. One has a pegleg and a hook on one of his orns, the other a patch over one eye and parrot on his horns. Both mercilessly raid the other cows for hay and water.

Marian Hegemony-ism: You have two cows. One wears a toga and believes he is a great ruler from Terra's ancient past. The other cow is a ruthlessly oppressed slave who plots to win his freedom. His name is Spartacus.

Kell Hound-ism. You have two cows. They face each other in combat. One cow is about to destroy the other cow when the other cow disappears from the first cow's "sights." The first cow chops off his horns, throws them at the second cow's hooves, and goes off to form a military unit. The second cow hides himself in a barn for a few years.

I'm not sure who originally wrote this, it's been around a long time.
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
The Federated Suns have an Anti Pope so I guess you could call them Catholic of some type,
Not exactly accurate. The Federated Sun Catholic Church isn't an anti-pope situation where the FedSuns claim their Pope is the proper Pope and the Pope in Rome is a false Pope, rather, when the Star League fell and communications went to shit there was a serious communication mix-up where the Cardinal of New Avalon honestly thought he had been appointed, effectively, pope in exile, while the normal pope fled persecution by Aramis. Since he was a bit of a reformist, the Cardinal of New Avalon made a bunch of reforms and once the dust settled and the actual situation was made clear, the differences between New Avalon Catholicism and Roman Catholicism were to great to be easily brought back together. As such they basically agreed to separate while still being in communion to a degree (much like how Greet Orthodox and Roman Catholics today are separate but in communion).

As to religion proper, New Avalon Catholicism isn't a State Religion of the FedSuns, as in fact, the Federated Suns actually has a Constitution that supersedes local planetary governments (and on paper even the First Prince, but in practice...) that ensures Freedom of Religion. The Six Liberties are:
  1. Right to Personal Liberty (including Freedom of Religion)
  2. Right to Own Personal Property
  3. Right to Own Arms
  4. Right to Fair Treatment under the Law
  5. Right to Privacy (also covers Freedom of Religion)
  6. Right to Participation in Government (this also includes the right to overthrow nobles whom act tyrannical... no I'm not kidding)
This makes the FedSuns actually somewhat unique in that unlike every other Successor State it's legal system is more founded on the concept of Natural Rights and Liberties more akin to the Anglo-American tradition.

For those saying the Lyrans are better, maybe they are economically more powerful, but they lack any checks and balances on the government like the FedSuns ostensibly have. Further, everyone here has failed to mention that the LyrCom is as susceptible to totalitarian leadership as the Draconis Combine, including one of the most brutal "secret police" (really state-sponsored terrorists) forces in the Inner Sphere: Loki that while it's supposed to be focused on enemies of the Lyrans, has been turned against the people of the Commonwealth multiple times throughout its history.

Goliath Scorpions are stoned out of their minds
No... and the idea that the clans have just two paragraphs on them is stupid. There's been multiple sourcebooks going into considerable detail on the culture and ideals of every Clan. The Goliath Scorpions, especially, have an interesting culture that is focused on finding and preserving historical information especially from the Star League. And not just military stuff, they consider cultural data to be just as, if not more, important than weapons and the like. Their main capital is half museum-half military base and they have a complicated system of adventuring archeologist warriors called Seekers who go out from Clan space to recover artifacts and information from across the Periphery.

Want more on them and the importance of the Goliath Scorpions? Well, when sending a unit of warriors to infiltrate the Inner Sphere to gather intel disguised as mercenaries, the Clans knew their way of warfare would not work, so they needed to train this unit on older Star League tactical doctrine... except, none of the Clan really had kept those records... except the Goliath Scorpions, who quite eagerly trained up the cadre of Clan Wolf volunteers for this expedition.

Yes, the Goliath Scorpions trained the Wolf Dragoons. Meaning that the reason for how elite the Wolf Dragoons were wasn't because they were Clan Wolf, but because they had been extensive trained and drilled in Star League era combined arms and tactical doctrine by the Goliath Scorpions.

Cloud Cobras are super religious in some vague way
. . . Again, no? There are EXTENSIVE details on exactly how the Cobras are super religious. In fact, unlike other Clans, where the Bloodname Houses are the primary identifier and political factions that drive inner-clan politics, in the Cloud Cobras what matters is what Church... I mean Cloister... you are a member of. We even have details on the major Cloisters of the Cloud Cobras, with there explicitly being Christian, Muslim, "New Age", and even "future space religion" Cloisters. Further, one of the major aspects of the Cobras is that the Cloisters are not exclusive to the Warrior caste, unlike the Bloodname houses, and due to the expectation that warriors be members in good standing of their cloisters, this means that the typical Cloud Cobra actually will have greater social interaction with the lower castes than most other Clanners. This means that a Cobra warrior who's a member of, for example, a Christian cloister will go to Sunday service, sit next to a laborer caste freeborn family who's also attending service, share worship and communion with them, probably chat a bit, and generally socialize with others. And the designers of BattleTech also took into account what this level of socialization means, the Cobras have some of the higher tolerances for Freeborns of any of the Clans.

The idea that every Clan has two sentences is a dumb meme and does a disservice to the creativity of the folks who've written BattleTech over its lifetime.
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
Like all the Captian Generals are Marricks
Nope, nothing requires that a Marik be the Captain General. That position requires a great deal of support to hold in their parliament. Problem for the FWL is that the internal regions are also separately ruled entities, even more so than the States of the USA. They possess their own militaries, and they are not above going 'A-Viking' if they feel like it.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Not exactly accurate. The Federated Sun Catholic Church isn't an anti-pope situation where the FedSuns claim their Pope is the proper Pope and the Pope in Rome is a false Pope, rather, when the Star League fell and communications went to shit there was a serious communication mix-up where the Cardinal of New Avalon honestly thought he had been appointed, effectively, pope in exile, while the normal pope fled persecution by Aramis. Since he was a bit of a reformist, the Cardinal of New Avalon made a bunch of reforms and once the dust settled and the actual situation was made clear, the differences between New Avalon Catholicism and Roman Catholicism were to great to be easily brought back together. As such they basically agreed to separate while still being in communion to a degree (much like how Greet Orthodox and Roman Catholics today are separate but in communion).

As to religion proper, New Avalon Catholicism isn't a State Religion of the FedSuns, as in fact, the Federated Suns actually has a Constitution that supersedes local planetary governments (and on paper even the First Prince, but in practice...) that ensures Freedom of Religion. The Six Liberties are:
  1. Right to Personal Liberty (including Freedom of Religion)
  2. Right to Own Personal Property
  3. Right to Own Arms
  4. Right to Fair Treatment under the Law
  5. Right to Privacy (also covers Freedom of Religion)
  6. Right to Participation in Government (this also includes the right to overthrow nobles whom act tyrannical... no I'm not kidding)
This makes the FedSuns actually somewhat unique in that unlike every other Successor State it's legal system is more founded on the concept of Natural Rights and Liberties more akin to the Anglo-American tradition.

For those saying the Lyrans are better, maybe they are economically more powerful, but they lack any checks and balances on the government like the FedSuns ostensibly have. Further, everyone here has failed to mention that the LyrCom is as susceptible to totalitarian leadership as the Draconis Combine, including one of the most brutal "secret police" (really state-sponsored terrorists) forces in the Inner Sphere: Loki that while it's supposed to be focused on enemies of the Lyrans, has been turned against the people of the Commonwealth multiple times throughout its history.


No... and the idea that the clans have just two paragraphs on them is stupid. There's been multiple sourcebooks going into considerable detail on the culture and ideals of every Clan. The Goliath Scorpions, especially, have an interesting culture that is focused on finding and preserving historical information especially from the Star League. And not just military stuff, they consider cultural data to be just as, if not more, important than weapons and the like. Their main capital is half museum-half military base and they have a complicated system of adventuring archeologist warriors called Seekers who go out from Clan space to recover artifacts and information from across the Periphery.

Want more on them and the importance of the Goliath Scorpions? Well, when sending a unit of warriors to infiltrate the Inner Sphere to gather intel disguised as mercenaries, the Clans knew their way of warfare would not work, so they needed to train this unit on older Star League tactical doctrine... except, none of the Clan really had kept those records... except the Goliath Scorpions, who quite eagerly trained up the cadre of Clan Wolf volunteers for this expedition.

Yes, the Goliath Scorpions trained the Wolf Dragoons. Meaning that the reason for how elite the Wolf Dragoons were wasn't because they were Clan Wolf, but because they had been extensive trained and drilled in Star League era combined arms and tactical doctrine by the Goliath Scorpions.


. . . Again, no? There are EXTENSIVE details on exactly how the Cobras are super religious. In fact, unlike other Clans, where the Bloodname Houses are the primary identifier and political factions that drive inner-clan politics, in the Cloud Cobras what matters is what Church... I mean Cloister... you are a member of. We even have details on the major Cloisters of the Cloud Cobras, with there explicitly being Christian, Muslim, "New Age", and even "future space religion" Cloisters. Further, one of the major aspects of the Cobras is that the Cloisters are not exclusive to the Warrior caste, unlike the Bloodname houses, and due to the expectation that warriors be members in good standing of their cloisters, this means that the typical Cloud Cobra actually will have greater social interaction with the lower castes than most other Clanners. This means that a Cobra warrior who's a member of, for example, a Christian cloister will go to Sunday service, sit next to a laborer caste freeborn family who's also attending service, share worship and communion with them, probably chat a bit, and generally socialize with others. And the designers of BattleTech also took into account what this level of socialization means, the Cobras have some of the higher tolerances for Freeborns of any of the Clans.

The idea that every Clan has two sentences is a dumb meme and does a disservice to the creativity of the folks who've written BattleTech over its lifetime.
It's called hyperbole, a literary device that exaggerates to an extreme for effect. I'm aware that there're more than literally two sentences on those clans. There's simply an extreme paucity of information on around 80% of the clans compared with writers' pet clans.

One need merely look at the Sarna listings, Jade Falcon has over twenty books, several all about Jade Falcon with them in the title and several more that are detailing major events like Jade Falcon fighting Wolf so half of the book is effectively dedicated to them.

Clan Cloud Cobra gets only seven books and none are about Cloud Cobra, just general Clan Books that mention Cloud Cobra here and there.

Ice Hellion has five books listed as sources, none are about Ice Hellions in particular.
 
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Chiron

Well-known member
Ignore all the Inner Sphere choices, fuck the Clans, I don't want to go with the Phone Company that ass raped the Clan, so...

Taurian Concordat, best choice. Failing that, give me a Lyran World which I will sell to buy an Exodus Fleet and I will find myself a new world and fuck the craziness.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
Not exactly accurate. The Federated Sun Catholic Church isn't an anti-pope situation where the FedSuns claim their Pope is the proper Pope and the Pope in Rome is a false Pope, rather, when the Star League fell and communications went to shit there was a serious communication mix-up where the Cardinal of New Avalon honestly thought he had been appointed, effectively, pope in exile, while the normal pope fled persecution by Aramis. Since he was a bit of a reformist, the Cardinal of New Avalon made a bunch of reforms and once the dust settled and the actual situation was made clear, the differences between New Avalon Catholicism and Roman Catholicism were to great to be easily brought back together. As such they basically agreed to separate while still being in communion to a degree (much like how Greet Orthodox and Roman Catholics today are separate but in communion).

As to religion proper, New Avalon Catholicism isn't a State Religion of the FedSuns, as in fact, the Federated Suns actually has a Constitution that supersedes local planetary governments (and on paper even the First Prince, but in practice...) that ensures Freedom of Religion. The Six Liberties are:
  1. Right to Personal Liberty (including Freedom of Religion)
  2. Right to Own Personal Property
  3. Right to Own Arms
  4. Right to Fair Treatment under the Law
  5. Right to Privacy (also covers Freedom of Religion)
  6. Right to Participation in Government (this also includes the right to overthrow nobles whom act tyrannical... no I'm not kidding)
This makes the FedSuns actually somewhat unique in that unlike every other Successor State it's legal system is more founded on the concept of Natural Rights and Liberties more akin to the Anglo-American tradition.

For those saying the Lyrans are better, maybe they are economically more powerful, but they lack any checks and balances on the government like the FedSuns ostensibly have. Further, everyone here has failed to mention that the LyrCom is as susceptible to totalitarian leadership as the Draconis Combine, including one of the most brutal "secret police" (really state-sponsored terrorists) forces in the Inner Sphere: Loki that while it's supposed to be focused on enemies of the Lyrans, has been turned against the people of the Commonwealth multiple times throughout its history.
Did they ever state what differances there are between Catholics and the others? Like it did not take too long to reestablish contact. I mean Kerensky took down Amaris within one human lifetime. Which is shorter than some Anti Pope situations. Why haven't they tried to reconcile?

Also don't most of the Btech nations offer many rights on paper, and preach support for democracy but don't actually respect them since they are legit monarchies?

As for the secret police doesen't almost every nation have that? The Lyran's do armed terrorism against foreigners, according to Sarna but can you show when they used it on themselves? I mean the only secret police that isn't dangerous is the Free World's League ironically named SAFE but that's just because they are incompetent.

Nope, nothing requires that a Marik be the Captain General. That position requires a great deal of support to hold in their parliament. Problem for the FWL is that the internal regions are also separately ruled entities, even more so than the States of the USA. They possess their own militaries, and they are not above going 'A-Viking' if they feel like it.
But how many non Marik's have become the Captian General? I mean you can make the same argument with the Capellan's and there has been one or two non Liao Chancellor's the last one was hundred's of years ago though.

Ignore all the Inner Sphere choices, fuck the Clans, I don't want to go with the Phone Company that ass raped the Clan, so...

Taurian Concordat, best choice. Failing that, give me a Lyran World which I will sell to buy an Exodus Fleet and I will find myself a new world and fuck the craziness.
Are the Inner Sphere options that bad as long as you are in the core territory and not on the border most options aren't that bad? If you go further in the timeline the Republic of the Sphere doesen't sound bad does it? Though yeah fuck the clans.

For good fucking reason. The Star League waged an unprovoked war against them for no good reason and proved to be an utter disaster that never should have formed in the first place in the manner it did.

And the less said about the Clans the better.
I mean yeah wars of conquest are bad, but well most powerful nations engage in that one way or another and try to pretty it up. America brings freedom and democracy to the middle east, but really just does what is best for the elites. The Star League conqured the periphery and told the masses it was uniting humanity in peace and prosperity, and later on it was true, until Amaris screwed it up.
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
But how many non Marik's have become the Captian General? I mean you can make the same argument with the Capellan's and there has been one or two non Liao Chancellor's the last one was hundred's of years ago though.
You're not wrong. I think only two non-Mariks have held the office. It's still pretty much a family affair. However, the Mariks have NEVER been able to cement the polities of the FWL into a whole. You can argue the other houses haven't either, but the Mariks have the least amount of direct control over their interior states.
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
Did they ever state what differances there are between Catholics and the others? Like it did not take too long to reestablish contact. I mean Kerensky took down Amaris within one human lifetime. Which is shorter than some Anti Pope situations. Why haven't they tried to reconcile?
The specific reforms, IIRC, was allowing priests to marry and a few other things. The differences are about the same amount as exists between the modern Orthodox and Catholic Churches... which also have never reconciled. I would also presume that the Pope of New Avalon didn't want to give up his power and so decided that schism would be better than reconciliation...

Also don't most of the Btech nations offer many rights on paper, and preach support for democracy but don't actually respect them since they are legit monarchies?
No. The Federated Suns is rather unique in having an actual charter of rights like it does. Most of the other nations don't actually make an effort and pretense towards supporting what we would consider "classical liberal rights", in large part because many of the successor states are founded on rejections of that model and creations of new models of governance and political theory.

As for the secret police doesen't almost every nation have that? The Lyran's do armed terrorism against foreigners, according to Sarna but can you show when they used it on themselves? I mean the only secret police that isn't dangerous is the Free World's League ironically named SAFE but that's just because they are incompetent.
They all have intelligence agencies, yes, but the FedSuns notably lack any form of "secret police" or other such organizations. As to Loki's activities against their own citizens? Yes, they were well known enough of a threat to the common people that a defacto organization to keep an eye on and oppose them was formed by concerned citizens and nobles of the Commonwealth known as Heimdall. The fact that Loki even spurred the creation of such a group is a pretty good indication they were overstepping their bounds as supposedly only used against foreign targets.

And note, in that article it specifically mentions that Loki had a plot to assassinate Katrina Steiner foiled by Heimdall... Katrina Steiner, as her surname indicates, is NOT a foreign agent of any kind, but rather, was a member of the ruling household who was out of favor with the current ruler.

So yes, Loki is regularly used against Lyran citizens... depending on how tyrannical the Archon is. Under a good Archon they are strictly used against the outside enemies; however, when a tyrannical Archon is in power they are used against anyone the Archon sees as a threat... both foreign and domestic.

Bearing in mind, the Lyran Commonwealth is heavily inspired by Germany. It has reflections of the good of Germany in it... but also the negatives of Germany... which includes the clear historical inspirations for Loki: the SS and Stazi.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Do note also that in BT, families take the more prestigious name so the prestigious families appear to go on much longer than they would in our world. Liao and Kurita've gone through several events that, in Europe, would have been dynastic changes (Including the Kurita family ostensibly dying off and being supplanted by the Von Rohrs). Every time, however, eventually the ruling family found some random bastard offshoot to marry to get at the name, and all their kids just became "Kurita," such as when Siriwan McAllister found a great-grandson of the last Kurita coordinator and married him to get the Kurita name on the throne again to placate members of the ISF.

That does open up a bit of a question as to why ISF suddenly cared at the Kurita name at that point, there had been Kurita coordinates for only 101 years combined, and the last one had been 94 years earlier so really there shouldn't have been any particular concern for getting a Kurita back as Coordinator at that point. There had been nearly as many years with no Kurita on the throne as there had been with it, but BT.

The more Doylist reason, of course, is that the fans like seeing the same names show up. I can remember people on the BT forums practically crying over Devlin Stone early on, because he wasn't a name they recognized and some fans just couldn't grok a character being important who wasn't dynastically tied to their precious great houses. Granted it turned out his storyline was pretty ass which is a much better reason to dislike Stone, but early on I did literally see some fans complaining entirely because they didn't recognize the Stone name.

Getting back on topic, having put forward NIOPS I'll give some reasoning.

NIOPS is a geniocracy which is fairly unique in the first place. Despite having few rights actually legally guaranteed for the, well, dumb people, NIOPS has a proven history of hundreds of years of making sure they have a very comfortable lifestyle with high tech luxuries available. They just don't let people below the IQ cutoff vote, while continuing to give them everything else they need. I'd say that ranks pretty well for BT morality. They kinda go off the rails during the Jihad like everybody else though.

NIOPS technology is... weird. They have access to everything the Star League ever made, but despite being the research geeks they never came up with any original designs which I consider a significant oversight, then again NIOPS gets ignored so much by the devs they don't even have an entry in the Master Unit List at all. They have little in the way of factories so they... handcraft entire BattleMechs and ASF. Their infantry are in Nighthawks even in the middle of the lostech era since they never los any tech themselves and they can even pull stuff like Null Sig out of their backsides when they want (but no LAMs, the Devs don't like those).
 

King Arts

Well-known member
Do note also that in BT, families take the more prestigious name so the prestigious families appear to go on much longer than they would in our world. Liao and Kurita've gone through several events that, in Europe, would have been dynastic changes (Including the Kurita family ostensibly dying off and being supplanted by the Von Rohrs). Every time, however, eventually the ruling family found some random bastard offshoot to marry to get at the name, and all their kids just became "Kurita," such as when Siriwan McAllister found a great-grandson of the last Kurita coordinator and married him to get the Kurita name on the throne again to placate members of the ISF.

That does open up a bit of a question as to why ISF suddenly cared at the Kurita name at that point, there had been Kurita coordinates for only 101 years combined, and the last one had been 94 years earlier so really there shouldn't have been any particular concern for getting a Kurita back as Coordinator at that point. There had been nearly as many years with no Kurita on the throne as there had been with it, but BT.

The more Doylist reason, of course, is that the fans like seeing the same names show up. I can remember people on the BT forums practically crying over Devlin Stone early on, because he wasn't a name they recognized and some fans just couldn't grok a character being important who wasn't dynastically tied to their precious great houses. Granted it turned out his storyline was pretty ass which is a much better reason to dislike Stone, but early on I did literally see some fans complaining entirely because they didn't recognize the Stone name.

Getting back on topic, having put forward NIOPS I'll give some reasoning.

NIOPS is a geniocracy which is fairly unique in the first place. Despite having few rights actually legally guaranteed for the, well, dumb people, NIOPS has a proven history of hundreds of years of making sure they have a very comfortable lifestyle with high tech luxuries available. They just don't let people below the IQ cutoff vote, while continuing to give them everything else they need. I'd say that ranks pretty well for BT morality. They kinda go off the rails during the Jihad like everybody else though.

NIOPS technology is... weird. They have access to everything the Star League ever made, but despite being the research geeks they never came up with any original designs which I consider a significant oversight, then again NIOPS gets ignored so much by the devs they don't even have an entry in the Master Unit List at all. They have little in the way of factories so they... handcraft entire BattleMechs and ASF. Their infantry are in Nighthawks even in the middle of the lostech era since they never los any tech themselves and they can even pull stuff like Null Sig out of their backsides when they want (but no LAMs, the Devs don't like those).
Umm what is NIOS?

Edit: Fuck mistyped NIOPS. Guess that means I wouldn't want to live there, since I'm probably under the IQ cut off lol.
 

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