Russia(gate/bot) At what rate is NATO planning to invite in Ukraine? If NATO doesn't know, why is negotiating away a neutrality agreement a non-starter?

Floridaman

Well-known member
How?

From everything I've seen going on with everyday people, on both parts of the political spectrum, the Ukraine distraction seems to be working to distract people from all those issues, assuming they even believe they existed in the first place due to how the MSM have treated all that as "conspiracy theories" for months.

Outside people who were focused on exposing the Wu Flu/Wu Flu vax, supporting the trucker convoy, and continuing to call out the stolen election, most of the plebs are not paying much if any attention to those issues, instead of getting pushed into 'war-hysteria' hype.
Ehh fortunately I have seen the opposite, with inflation being as bad as it is, apart from the official word of corporations, no one has been focused on Ukraine, more questioning how we are gonna get through the month.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
It can be, but given how many of their stories turned out to be wholesale fiction like the ghost of Kiev, it hasn’t been.

I don't think we will actually have a real idea of what is happening in this war until years afterwards.

The problem is the media the american media by far replaced the actual journalists with activists decades ago. Every one who had actual expertise with the region was fired a long time ago. There is no one left who has a fucking clue what's going on so any information we get is going to be incredibly suspect before it gets filtered by bias.
 

Floridaman

Well-known member
I don't think we will actually have a real idea of what is happening in this war until years afterwards.

The problem is the media the american media by far replaced the actual journalists with activists decades ago. Every one who had actual expertise with the region was fired a long time ago. There is no one left who has a fucking clue what's going on so any information we get is going to be incredibly suspect before it gets filtered by bias.
Well that and a propoganda war is 5th gen warfare, the idea being control the information you control the reality. which the west seems to have gone all in on. The problem is as Goebells could tell you at the end even the best propoganda can’t actually win you a war, you actually need to meet operational objectives.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
The idea the media can be right once in awhil3 baffles them
No, we just remember what happened post-9/11 with the excesses (Freedom Fries and Patriot Act, anyone) and lies of the "War on Terror" in the media and the more recent lies about the Wu Flu/it's vax's, along with how they covered the stolen election.

We also haven't forgotten neocon warhawks, like yourself, exist and are always looking for an excuse to get involved in or instigate conflicts, even if it's just for 'experience', like you claim when you said the US military needs to be involved in a fight every 20 years just to stay in practice.

Just because Putin went full retard does not in anyway change the problems and corruption that plague western media or make warhawks any more justified in their Bretton Woods protecting BS. Nor does it suddenly give people in DC a sudden moral high ground, after we invaded Iraq on a bunch of lies and blew an easy withdrawal from A-stan because again, DC is full of greedy idiots, including in the Pentagon.
It can be, but given how many of their stories turned out to be wholesale fiction like the ghost of Kiev, it hasn’t been.
Ah, but you see, if you aren't 100% behind the war-hysteria, you are an agent of Putin.

It wasn't enough to use the Wu Flu and it's vax's to destroy national unity and sow division while punishing anyone who spoke out against the BS measures as 'trying to kill granny', now they will try to use war-time-like powers to shun and destroy anyone who doesn't get onboard the "Ukraine are innocent angels, Russia are the new Nazi's, and none of what has happened is the fault of an overreach by establishment hacks who kept trying to pull Ukraine into NATO" narrative.

We are already seeing it here, where people who were cursing the asshats in DC are suddenly seemed to have jumped onboard a 'war-time-hysteria' train and gobble of US/western propaganda uncritically, while calling anything that shows the Ukrainian gov or western actions in anything but the best light 'Russian' propaganda.
Ehh fortunately I have seen the opposite, with inflation being as bad as it is, apart from the official word of corporations, no one has been focused on Ukraine, more questioning how we are gonna get through the month.
That's fair; hope more people do not fall for the distraction.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
No, we just remember what happened post-9/11 with the excesses (Freedom Fries and Patriot Act, anyone) and lies of the "War on Terror" in the media and the more recent lies about the Wu Flu/it's vax's, along with how they covered the stolen election.

We also haven't forgotten neocon warhawks, like yourself, exist and are always looking for an excuse to get involved in or instigate conflicts, even if it's just for 'experience', like you claim when you said the US military needs to be involved in a fight every 20 years just to stay in practice.

Just because Putin went full retard does not in anyway change the problems and corruption that plague western media or make warhawks any more justified in their Bretton Woods protecting BS. Nor does it suddenly give people in DC a sudden moral high ground, after we invaded Iraq on a bunch of lies and blew an easy withdrawal from A-stan because again, DC is full of greedy idiots, including in the Pentagon.
Ah, but you see, if you aren't 100% behind the war-hysteria, you are an agent of Putin.

It wasn't enough to use the Wu Flu and it's vax's to destroy national unity and sow division while punishing anyone who spoke out against the BS measures as 'trying to kill granny', now they will try to use war-time-like powers to shun and destroy anyone who doesn't get onboard the "Ukraine are innocent angels, Russia are the new Nazi's, and none of what has happened is the fault of an overreach by establishment hacks who kept trying to pull Ukraine into NATO" narrative.

We are already seeing it here, where people who were cursing the asshats in DC are suddenly seemed to have jumped onboard a 'war-time-hysteria' train and gobble of US/western propaganda uncritically, while calling anything that shows the Ukrainian gov or western actions in anything but the best light 'Russian' propaganda.
That's fair; hope more people do not fall for the distraction.
A broken clock is right twice a day
 
we litterally spent 20 years in the sandbox and watched on live TV as a bunch of litteral goat fuckers defeated us and took afganistan. 20 years of effort flushed down the toylet in an instant. The american people are tired, really really tired and abused and don't feel like going into yet another war.

This I'll also add I think people especially on the internet have been so busy chasing and fighting shadow wars we forget what the people right in front of us look like. Putin is a former KGB agent wanting to bring back the good ol days of the USSR despite the fact that it's never really worked and if the protest going on in his own backyard are anything to go by his people don't really care to go back to. Ukraine is a pit ran by a corrupt president who has done more politicing then anyone cares to think about. This war is about nothing more than ego. No one really wins and the civilians on both sides lose. We really don't need to get involved in a stupid war like this.
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
How?

From everything I've seen going on with everyday people, on both parts of the political spectrum, the Ukraine distraction seems to be working to distract people from all those issues, assuming they even believe they existed in the first place due to how the MSM have treated all that as "conspiracy theories" for months.

Outside people who were focused on exposing the Wu Flu/Wu Flu vax, supporting the trucker convoy, and continuing to call out the stolen election, most of the plebs are not paying much if any attention to those issues, instead of getting pushed into 'war-hysteria' hype.
Just as an example, Biden's dementia is being highlighted because every time he speaks it becomes more and more apparent. Another example would be high gas prices because everyone is going to notice that, and thanks to some reporters with integrity constantly bringing it up, we know that in spite of an important source of foreign fuel being cut off from us, they refuse to start more domestic production due to "green" policies.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
Just as an example, Biden's dementia is being highlighted because every time he speaks it becomes more and more apparent. Another example would be high gas prices because everyone is going to notice that, and thanks to some reporters with integrity constantly bringing it up, we know that in spite of an important source of foreign fuel being cut off from us, they refuse to start more domestic production due to "green" policies.

my money is that once things get bad enough the greens will be murdered by angry mobs of people.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
A broken clock is right twice a day
69-i-think-my-clock-is-broken-62338925.png

Sometimes a broken clock is just broken.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
At what rate is NATO planning to invite in Ukraine? If NATO doesn't know, why is negotiating away a neutrality agreement a non-starter?

I want to return to this thread:

AFAIK, Russia's demands were larger than simply not having Ukraine not join NATO. It also included a permanent end to all Western military cooperation with Ukraine and all other ex-USSR states as well as a permanent end to all eastwards NATO expansion. If Ukraine were to have a neutrality agreement, then it would need to have something in exchange for this, such as legally binding security guarantees from the West. But the fear would be that non-NATO Western security guarantees won't be perceived as being as binding on the West as NATO Western security guarantees would be. Ukraine already became a sucker with the 1994 Budapest memorandum, after all. And it would need to be the kind of neutrality that would allow Ukraine to continue militarily cooperating with any other countries that it chooses just so long as it does not host their military bases. And also have a clear path opened for Ukraine towards eventual European Union membership.

But anyway, Russia has clearly miscalculated in all of this. Now Ukrainians are even more determined to join NATO, to join the EU, and to resist Russia. Russia has clearly and decisively lost the battle for hearts and minds in Ukraine, thus ensuring that it can never strategically win the Ukraine war even in the event that it tactically wins it:

 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
I want to return to this thread:

AFAIK, Russia's demands were larger than simply not having Ukraine not join NATO. It also included a permanent end to all Western military cooperation with Ukraine and all other ex-USSR states as well as a permanent end to all eastwards NATO expansion.
And that was just the start. On top of that Russia wanted eastern NATO members to effectively be treated as second class NATO members by the rest of NATO, and to also have veto powers over what NATO does there. Effectively it would have been like a conditional surrender treaty by NATO, except without actually losing a war. NATO would lose credibility by even verbally agreeing to such limits on sovereign rights of its members, nevermind actually implementing them.
NATO should have made equally ridiculous counter-demands on Russia to mock it, like demilitarization of all Russian territory 200km from NATO countries and not stationing *any* strategic weapons west of Moscow.
As for Ukraine, now Russia is clear about it, the long term intent was for Ukraine to join the "triune state" with Belarus and Russia, and as such, any deal, treaty or agreement Ukraine joins that would stand in the way of this would be an unacceptable one to Russia.
If Ukraine were to have a neutrality agreement, then it would need to have something in exchange for this, such as legally binding security guarantees from the West.
Legal deals are good for money and shit, at this point they are iffy when it comes to military escalation against a nuclear power being on the line. There is never a total guarantee, only politics, shared interests and choices
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
And that was just the start. On top of that Russia wanted eastern NATO members to effectively be treated as second class NATO members by the rest of NATO, and to also have veto powers over what NATO does there. Effectively it would have been like a conditional surrender treaty by NATO, except without actually losing a war. NATO would lose credibility by even verbally agreeing to such limits on sovereign rights of its members, nevermind actually implementing them.
NATO should have made equally ridiculous counter-demands on Russia to mock it, like demilitarization of all Russian territory 200km from NATO countries and not stationing *any* strategic weapons west of Moscow.
As for Ukraine, now Russia is clear about it, the long term intent was for Ukraine to join the "triune state" with Belarus and Russia, and as such, any deal, treaty or agreement Ukraine joins that would stand in the way of this would be an unacceptable one to Russia.

Legal deals are good for money and shit, at this point they are iffy when it comes to military escalation against a nuclear power being on the line. There is never a total guarantee, only politics, shared interests and choices

Completely agreed.

Also another thing worth noting: NATO already established a precedent that countries bordering Russia/the Soviet Union can join NATO when it admitted Turkey into the alliance in 1952 as well as both Latvia and Estonia in 2004 (and this is not to mention Norway being a NATO member since 1949 and both Poland and Lithuania being NATO members since 2004; all of them have minor borders with Russia, while the three countries mentioned at the start here have/had major borders with Russia/the Soviet Union). So, NATO would be breaking its own precedents by refusing to allow Ukraine to enter NATO. If the Ukrainians themselves wanted neutrality, then it would be one thing, but they don't. They're not Austrians. And even then, NATO simply refused to rule out long-term Ukrainian membership in NATO; Ukraine wasn't going to get admitted into NATO anytime soon, as Biden told Putin.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top