ASOIAF/GOT ASOIAF Ideas, Recs, and Discussion thread

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
There were the Not!Legions, they were getting hit by dragons, some of those guys going to Westerous with their Not!Roman engineering is quite reasonable.

You mean the Ghiscari? The problem is distance and the fact that only the Ironborn practice slavery holding them back.

Then again a prohibition against slavery didn't stop Valyrian nobles from coming to Westeros.


Could well be a reason why the Citadel doesn't like magic, if you're using that. Refugees from the evil magic Dragon Empire, seeing magic in that kind of way? Youch.

Oh yeah no Valyrian or Ghriscari engineers and healers and scholars showing up and cucking your order would cause no end of fury and they would naturally respond to the increased competition with subterfuge.


Magic does seem to have serious costs in the books, after all. Mostly not worth it.

Seems to depend on the kind of magic you perform. A lot of Essosi sorcery is extremely violent and perverse. And the one instance of mass sacrifice in Westerosi prior to the Dragons was when the Children nuked a land bridge.

Westerosi magic seems to be more subdued and less costly.

And we've no idea what the Yi Ti or Lengii do with their magic. Except that the long night might have been caused by a furry from Yi Ti :ROFLMAO:
 

Emperor Tippy

Merchant of Death
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Not for the Riverlands themselves so much as bridging various rivers for ease of travel for commerce purposes. Though you're right in that most of those would be controlled by other Kingdoms.

The issue is that before the Conquest, there was relatively little reason for the kind of interaction we are discussing.

The Vale was utterly secure (save from the North doing some poaching of the Three Sisters, maybe) and also unable to project power thanks to having the Greenfork in the way and fear of the North coming down to fuck them over. They could push their borders to the Greenfork (it is the natural barrier) but that does open them up somewhat to various raiding forces, and pushing beyond the Greenfork means dealing with the river crossing and then having to secure territory in open land relatively far from home and with relatively limited lines of supply/communication.

The Westerlands had ALL THE GOLD! along with relatively secure territory. Their relative lack of secure port facilities and expose to the Iron Isles and Redwyne Fleet precluded any serious territorial expansion. March south and they run into the Reach and just get crushed with sheer numbers while suffering coastal raiding the whole time. Try to expand into the Riverlands and they are having to do it through a single pass into crappy terrain and get blocked by Riverrun.

The Reach has the Westerlands, Stormlands, Dorne, and Iron Isles that it all has to worry about and no particularly good places to expand into. Not to mention already basically being as large as could be practicable given the technology they had access to. If they tried to expand in any direction, all of the rest would gang up on them because a more powerful reach was a threat to all of them.

The Stormlands had access to the Narrow Sea and so a good trade route to Essos along with a sea borne route to the Vale and (to some extent) the North. If they wanted to expand, it would have been into the Crownlands but that isn't an easy investment to make given Dorne and the Reach to contend with and the investment required to keep the territory conquered.

The Riverlands had relatively good lands and expansion potential into the Crownlands but a combined Riverlands and Crownlands have the potential to actually be a threat to the other powers and was simply way too easy (and wealthy) for all of the rest to invade so they would never be allowed to build up into a serious power. I mean a Vale-Westerlands alliance with the Vale putting a blocking force on the Harrenhall-Dary line to lock the Riverlands forces into the Crownlands while both the Westerlands and Vale go raiding in the Riverlands is just too easy. The North is an ever present threat. The Ironborn as well. And a Riverlands expanded into the Crownlands would also have to contend with the Stormlands and Reach.

Ultimately, what really made the Conquest possible was dragons. They allowed a central authority to rapidly deploy an armies worth of firepower anywhere in the realm and the ability to move that "army" faster than most communications could travel. The Targaryens made war in Westeros essentially impossible thanks to their dragons (at least so long as the Targs were unified). That kind of security is what allowed a more unified and cohesive Westeros as a whole, with substantial trade between the realms and where canals would actually be truly useful.

Theres really no reason for the Riverlands not to have been annexes into the crownlands.
Annexing the Riverlands as a whole into the Crownlands would have been a bad idea. An extent Riverlands acts as buffer between the North, Vale, Westerlands, and Crownlands. The Riverlands are also a bitch to govern.

Realistically, the Targs should have made the North side of the river (probably out to about a mile or so) and the Harrenhall-Dary line into the border.

Isn't Riverrun a key location strategically though?
Sure, depending on the situation. For example, it locks the Westerlands out of basically everything East of Riverrun. It is also fairly safe from anyone trying to be a problem; you have to siege it from three sides to actually siege it. But its not actually well positioned to control the Riverlands as a whole or prevent the other powers (except the Westerlands) from marching armies through the Riverlands.

Minimize Tyrell power and create a domain of their own as large as any of the other Kingdoms?
You do the Crownlands expansion because it provides a relatively easily secured, substantial, power base on the continent. You break the Reach because you have the perfect opportunity to do so with the Gardeners dead and it would otherwise be the most powerful competing power bloc.

Rework the Stormlands-Reach borders to favor the Stormlands as you have Orys there and securing your southern flank. Establish the Tyrells and Hightowers as competing, balanced, powers that are neither in a position to be a great issue. For the Hightowers to be an issue, they need to come up the Mandar to the North with the Tyrell Reach and the Strormlands able to easily raid them along both sides of the river and make that a fools game. For the Tyrells to be an issue, they have the Hightowers at their back willing to fuck them over and they have lost a substantial chunk of the Reach's military power.

Martin seems to think the high middle ages were the same economically as post Rome Europe. Hence you get subsistence farming and other things as the main means by which these lords with domains larger than most medieval Kingdoms maintain their wealth.
Martin just really sucked at anything related to economics, logistics, distance, or travel times.

Having a steadier steam of Valyrian migration into Westeros and bringing their engineering and skills might achieve that?

Aegon keeps his dragons and his magic is expanded and presumably because the field is a little more competitive. He has to be smarter?

The issue isn't really one of tech, it's more one of failure to think long term at all.

I mean if Aegon hadn't been an idiot then the Targs would have wiped out the Arryns and replaced them with a House Targaryen of the Vale (Prince of the Vale perhaps?) and established a second son as the founder of that hereditary house.

Dragonstone would have remained the personal domain of House Targaryen and, at worst, explicitly a domain granted at the pleasure of the Crown to whomever (generally the Heir?). Better off would have been isolating it and hiving it off as not part of the Seven Kingdoms proper and instead remaining the personal domain of the Valyrians/the Dragons. No Priests of the Seven or Maesters allowed, everyone with dragons is fostered there, etc. Basically a secure fallback and the center of dragon and/or magic lore along with the source of the hard core Targ loyalists for things like castle servants, personal troops, etc.

Break the Reach and rejigger its borders.

Burn the Iron Isles to ash, genocide the locals, and move people from the North into the area. Probably wed a Stark to a Targ and establish that House as the ruler of the territory.

Don't let the Lannisters keep the Rock. Seize it as a crown domain and make it the headquarters of the Crown's Bank. You never want to trust an underling with that degree of gold and that secure a fortress.

Before you touch Dorne, go after the Stepstones and maybe even Tyrosh.

You need to break the power of the Maesters and the Faith, so get closer to the North as that brings you the First Men and they are generally more in line with Valyrian beliefs than the Faith anyways. More importantly, the Old Gods aren't a competing power base, the Faith is.

Dragons in the Eyrie basically secures the Crownlands against the North, Riverlands, or Vale being an issue and provides another secure point to retreat to/draw from/ pivot on. It also provides a good, secure, route to bring the Northern forces down if needed.

Secure the Iron Isles and you have a naval base on the West that allows you to easily threaten the Westerlands and the Reach if they get restive without actually being any realistic threat to the crowns core holdings.

Secure the Stepstones and you basically make the Narrow Sea your private lake and have a good base to go after Dorne from.
 

Simonbob

Well-known member
You mean the Ghiscari? The problem is distance and the fact that only the Ironborn practice slavery holding them back.

Then again a prohibition against slavery didn't stop Valyrian nobles from coming to Westeros.

Heck, they could be escaped slaves, coming where they were never to be re-enslaved, after all.

A trickle could still bring some things.

Oh yeah no Valyrian or Ghriscari engineers and healers and scholars showing up and cucking your order would cause no end of fury and they would naturally respond to the increased competition with subterfuge.

Unless they come in an join, adding to their power. And mixing some more political stuff, but, still.
 

Simonbob

Well-known member

All that stuff.....

It's entirely possible that he couldn't. How many actually loyal troops did he have? Loyal to him, I mean. How many of his new "subjects" were willing to do what he said?

Sure, in the face of a dragon, people do what they're told. But, there's not that many dragons, and they have to sleep, as do their riders. Who would be loyal when out from his eyes?


Aegon had a LOT of power, but it was all local. He used the local powers, because the other options were worse.
 

Emperor Tippy

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All that stuff.....

It's entirely possible that he couldn't. How many actually loyal troops did he have? Loyal to him, I mean. How many of his new "subjects" were willing to do what he said?

Sure, in the face of a dragon, people do what they're told. But, there's not that many dragons, and they have to sleep, as do their riders. Who would be loyal when out from his eyes?


Aegon had a LOT of power, but it was all local. He used the local powers, because the other options were worse.

Except he could.

So long as he had enough forces to ensure the Targs personal security, Dragons were basically all he needed.

Field and army and the Black Dread will just reenact the Fields of Fire. Attempt to resist and its another Harrenhal.

The Iron Isles? The Ironborn had zero friends and with the loss of the Riverlands they were in no position to even pretend to resist dragons. At the very least, it was a far better target than Dorne.

Appeal to the North with the threat of just waiting until Winter and burning their castles and towns out and the carrot of resolving the Iron Born in their favor, establishing them as first among equals, breaking the Faith, and a royal marriage or two.

Once you have the North onboard you have the threat of unleashing the "tree worshipping barbarians" onto any of the Faithful who won't play ball. "Bend the knee and you can keep your castle, or refuse and I burn you out and bring in First Men to string up your Septons on the weirwoods, kill your men, and rape your wives and daughters. They are just itching for the opportunity to come South, much better climate don't you know?"

The Fields of Fire broke the armies of the Westerlands and Reach. With the Gardeners dead, there is no clear successor to the realm as a whole and splitting it serves everyone's interests. The Hightowers get to be independent, the Tyrells get elevated, and the Targs get to turn the former Reach into a backstabbing quagmire that isn't going to be able to coordinate any coherent opposition to them for at least a generation.

The Westerlands is a bit more difficult, but offer the Reynes the position of Lord Paramount and you can probably buy off enough local support to make things stick.

You also tell the Hightowers, post Harrenhal, that if they Faith gets restive then your response is going to be burning all of Old Town in dragon fire so it's up to the Hightowers to keep the Faith in line.

-x-x-x-
You don't really need true loyalty, at least not initially. All you need is the ability to direct those who dislike you at easier targets and get them competing against one another.

So long as you retain dragons, you have an escape route, army killer, and fast travel under your sole control. One that can't be bribed or manipulated away from you.

Have a spy network good enough to notice entire armies moving and a communications network good enough to get the word to you in a timely manner and you are safe. Army camps for the night? The Black Dread comes out of the darkness and torches the lot of them. Try a river crossing? Dragonfire says high. Become too much of a problem? Dragon goes and torches your farms, villages, and castles.

You also spread the word among the small folk and servant classes. "If your Lord decides to rebel, the dragons will burn your castle/village/town/city so it would be a really good idea to remove your lord if he gets ideas." You also make sure that the various lords become aware of that message and policy, make them paranoid that their own retainers would turn on them if they try to rebel.

Moving against the Stepstones? Well there you probably need to work out an agreement with Braavos to keep them from being a problem. It's still a better choice than Dorne though.
 

Simonbob

Well-known member
Have a spy network good enough to notice entire armies moving and a communications network good enough to get the word to you in a timely manner and you are safe.
And he didn't have that.

I think you're looking at it wrong. There's a number of recent examples, but I'll just point out one. Afganistan.

The US had the kind of tech advantage and numbers to match and, in many ways, excede, the level of power disparities in this analogy. They, the US, couldn't even come close. Short the willingness and numbers to be in every town, ready to kill whoever disobeys? And, even then, there's quite a few examples of that not working.


Aegon could have done more, perhaps. It's just....This kind of thing, it's the kind of thing that might have been done over generations, perhaps, but assuming you can just command it..... It's not going to work anywhere so well as that.


What does he do when every time he turns up, it's "Of course, Your Grace" until he goes away? What happens when a bunch of trade groups turn up, and half of them are "bandits"? Dragons win at direct combat. Not much else.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
A trickle could still bring some things.

And like I said, there's no reason Valyrians and other Essosi wouldn't steadily migrate to Westeros. The North has so much land and volcanoes, it's a natural place and as @Emperor Tippy notes, the First Men are more aligned with the way they think than the South and there'd be a lot of use for men of talent.

And then you have the Storm Lands and their "best infantry in the world" bit IIRC. Which could be explained by Ghiscari exiles submitting to the Durrandons in exchange for training their armies. Cue memes about Bobby B being a bug eater :ROFLMAO: but yeah.

The Reach or the Storm Lands becoming a place for exiled Valyrian nobles...


Unless they come in an join, adding to their power. And mixing some more political stuff, but, still.

This is true, high tides raise all boats.

I thought about doing a fanfic where Aegon's not the only exiled Dragonlord that goes west...One arrives a thousand years before after losing the Valyrian game of Thrones hard enough he has to uproot everything down to his vassals then ends up conquering the Iron Islands and the western coast of the North..then gradually ending up assimilated by House Stark. The twist being that they lost their dragons, but they came with firewyrms and that population never declines.

Which leads to King Torrhen confronting Aegon on a much more even footing, leading to the North being just as important as the Reach and the Stormlands to the Targaryen dynasty. At least when I finish season 2 of my SG reboot.

But I dunno, there's kinks to iron out. But it would probably prevent the Dance, as House Targaryen wouldn't be able to survive infighting if they had vassals who could park a bunch of wingless drakes on their backdoor.

Blackfyre rebellion would be the dance maybe..I dunno. This is why I tend to spend years plotting out a fanfiction before I write one 300767289228263424.png
 

Emperor Tippy

Merchant of Death
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And he didn't have that.
Which is my point. Aegon never took steps to establish any of the infrastructure of rule; including things like spy networks.

Hell, it was up to Visenya to create a personal bodyguard (the Kingsguard) because Aegon apparently didn't give a fuck.

I think you're looking at it wrong. There's a number of recent examples, but I'll just point out one. Afganistan.

The US had the kind of tech advantage and numbers to match and, in many ways, excede, the level of power disparities in this analogy. They, the US, couldn't even come close. Short the willingness and numbers to be in every town, ready to kill whoever disobeys? And, even then, there's quite a few examples of that not working.
The "tech" disparity between Aegon and everyone else was greater than that between the US and Taliban.

More importantly, Aegon was willing to engage in large scale slaughter in a manner that the US was never willing to in Iraq or Afghanistan. In those conflicts the US was also essentially as politically stupid as it was possible to be and could never decide what it wanted as the end result.

Aegon could have done more, perhaps. It's just....This kind of thing, it's the kind of thing that might have been done over generations, perhaps, but assuming you can just command it..... It's not going to work anywhere so well as that.
Except he could basically "just command it". At least at the time.

"Do what I want or I torch your castle." is a very compelling argument against the local lords and knights. As Aegon, your goal is basically to keep people paying lip service to your rule. At least initially.

Let's say that the Lannisters try to call the banners, but Aegon has told all of those lesser lords "If you take the field against me, even at your own lord's behest, then I will just come by and torch your home." then so long as his threat is credible those lesser lords won't respond to the Lannister call to arms.

Armies don't actually teleport around, regardless of what GoT might have one think. They take time to assemble, time to equip, and time (lots of it) to move. They are also incredibly easy to see from the air and really hard to conceal.

For the Vale Lords (for example), all that has changed is that they bend the knee to a Targaryen as opposed to an Arryn and that if they get restive then dragons will visit their home to express displeasure with the restiveness. The local lords get to keep being local lords and keep lording it over the small folk. Hell, they generally have more free time and less expenses because they don't have to worry as much about going to war against whomever has pissed off their liege (this liege having dragons and thus not needing to field large armies).

None of them have rapid communications or the ability to coordinate forces over large distances. And none of them have any realistic chance against a dragon.

What does he do when every time he turns up, it's "Of course, Your Grace" until he goes away? What happens when a bunch of trade groups turn up, and half of them are "bandits"? Dragons win at direct combat. Not much else.

Dragons win at lots of things. The most relevant to the Targs is at being a threat. So long as the Targs have dragons and a proven willingness to burn cities and armies to ash with them, there becomes a firm limit on just how restive the locals can become.

In terms of manpower, what the Targs really need is enough to ensure their immediate security. Assassination is the threat they have to watch out for, not armies.

Aegon is also not the one doing as much of the building. Or to be more precise, he should be the one creating the table and not the one setting it. Break the established power structures, establish the ground rules and structure of the dynasty, and let the future generations deal with the rest.

What is the succession? What are the rules with dragon riders marrying into other Houses? Who is allowed to be a dragon rider? What are the territorial borders? What is X allowed to do/not do?

Aegon isn't the one who needs to build roads, he is the one who needs to establish what the rules/conventions for road building and control are. What standard should roads be constructed to? Are Lords allowed to toll them? Who is responsible for upkeep? What are the upkeep standards?
 

Simonbob

Well-known member
Look, I think you don't really understand how difficult it is to impose a new way from the outside. It's not impossible, but there's a reason why groups like the British Empire worked through the local powers, and tried to gradually move them around to their way of thinking.

When the West squished Iraq, they took over, send the army home, and put in their own people, in all sorts of ways. It went to shit, because changing people's ways requires more than just killing power. There was a Army Officer who I went to see giving a talk about what they did in Iraq, and they might not have done much mass killing, but they still killed the leaders of any group that gave them much trouble.

Aegon simply did not have the numbers to make that kind of thing happen. Sure, an army could be torched, but, if everybody lies to him, how would he know? Nobody would tell him.


He might be able to leverage one part against another, and gradually get what he wanted, but none of this is as easy as it sounds.



His Force Majure did, in fact, make a single nation from the parts. That's quite an achevement, right there. Breaking things further? Much, much harder still.
 

Emperor Tippy

Merchant of Death
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Look, I think you don't really understand how difficult it is to impose a new way from the outside. It's not impossible, but there's a reason why groups like the British Empire worked through the local powers, and tried to gradually move them around to their way of thinking.
Which is precisely my point.

All the Targs needed under Aegon was for the lords to pay lip service and be at least nominally loyal.

If a top level lord was willing to play ball then great, they were welcomed in and basically left to keep doing whatever they wanted with a change in title and no longer being allowed to war on their neighbors. If they weren't willing to play ball then they were removed and someone else elevated to the position.

Trying to break the bottom level lords as a collective whole or actually exercise direct control (complex legal codes for example) wasn't possible and would likely not be possible for generations to come.

The mistake that Aegon made (or at least one of them) was in failing to take the opportunity to mitigate the power of those top level lords.

The North was safe because they were First Men and geographically relatively isolated. The religious issue kept them from ever being a threat to overthrow the Targs and they lacked the economic clout or temperament to be a major threat in the games of court. Deal with them relatively bluntly and honestly, offer them a decent deal, generally leave them alone, and they will remain loyal. They are virtually ideal as the threat in being, the army that the Targs can use to threaten the Faithful with whenever they start getting uppity.

You can break the North with dragons but you could never rule it. The Starks spent thousands of years establishing their throne and securing it, and Aegon had zero chance of breaking that in his lifetime.

The Riverlands were a hot mess with no legitimate, recognized, top noble. Aegon could basically do whatever the hell he wanted with them and install any number of houses as the top Lord with whatever borders he wanted and on basically whatever terms he wanted. Grabbing off some of the land to rejigger borders to his advantage was politically incredibly easy.

The Reach saw the Gardeners dead on the Fields of Fire along with the core of the Reach's army and a great many of its lords and/or their heirs. Breaking it would, again, be relatively trivial "Hey Hightower, if you bend the knee then I'll make you high lord over all of this and with direct fealty to the crown. Hey Tully, if you bend the knee then I'll make you high lord over all of this and with direct fealty to the crown." Both of them would jump at the chance, and would basically instant establish the other as the primary competitor to each of them. With Aegon, and his dragons, able to play peacemaker and keep a cold war from going hot.

The Crownlands had no top lord, so taking it directly was relatively easy as if anyone disagreed then they were basically penny anty lords with a few hundred men and a keep.

The Stormlands, he married the old kings daughter (and heir) off to his top general. Relatively normal and easy takeover for the time.

The Iron Isles have no friends and no one likes them. They are an easy enemy.

The Westerlands, the Lannisters just lost a large chunk of their army at the Fields of Fire and have no allies left at the time. Offering the position of Lord Paramount to one of the Westerlands great nobles is something that they probably jump at. They certainly aren't going to rise up en mass for the Lannisters after the Fields of Fire and they have no easy way to get an army anywhere that matters.

The Vale, the Arryns are a young boy and his mother. Installing a new ruling house when you have dragons and no one else does is relatively simple and straightforward. Especially if a relatively light touch is used on the lesser lords.

---
The point of establishing a cadet house in the Vale, removing the Lannisters, and wiping out the Iron isles isn't the short term return on investment. Its for the very long term. The Vale is essentially immune to attack if defended by dragons and is well positioned to benefit the dynasty going forward. You don't need loyalty tomorrow, you need it five generations down the line.

You remove the Lannisters now because you can't do it once they bend the knee and you accept their fealty. Leaving another House in control of the Rock's mines and that fortress is a long term threat to the dynasty. So you break it during the Conquest, when you can get away with doing so, and replace the Lannisters with one of their bannermen as the Lord Paramount of the Westerlands.

You burn out the Iron Isles because its an enemy that everyone can agree on and will never play nice with the crown. It also works as a nice bribe for the North and (to a lesser extent the Westerlands, Riverlands, and Reach) while also allowing you to establish a secure naval anchorage to threaten the Westerlands and Reach from.

When the West squished Iraq, they took over, send the army home, and put in their own people, in all sorts of ways. It went to shit, because changing people's ways requires more than just killing power. There was a Army Officer who I went to see giving a talk about what they did in Iraq, and they might not have done much mass killing, but they still killed the leaders of any group that gave them much trouble.
In Iraq the US broke all of the established power structures and couldn't decide what to replace them with. The US was also massively inconsistent in its behavior in Iraq and was heavily constrained in its ROE and behavior.

You also assume some need or desire to "change people's ways". That isn't an issue for Aegon. At best, all he is doing is changing who is on top of the pile. If a local lord wants to keep doing exactly what he was doing before, then that would be perfectly ok with the throne so long as the local lord 1) keeps paying the same taxes he paid before, 2) doesn't take up arms against the crown, and 3) pays at least lip service to actually being loyal.

If the local lord doesn't behave, then he gets removed via dragon and the fief is given to some underling deserving of a reward and life continues on.

Aegon simply did not have the numbers to make that kind of thing happen. Sure, an army could be torched, but, if everybody lies to him, how would he know? Nobody would tell him.
If he is that incompetent then he never would have won in the first place. Seriously, you are claiming no spies and no scouts essentially. It's also not easy to cross rivers, which is why you put garrisons on the handful of spots an army can use to cross.

He might be able to leverage one part against another, and gradually get what he wanted, but none of this is as easy as it sounds.
Everything is harder than it sounds. But compared to the Conquest itself? None of this is hard.

Building an actual unified nation out of Westeros is hard and the work of multiple generations. Setting the groundwork to secure Targaryen rule going forward and breaking the established power structures wasn't.
 

Simonbob

Well-known member
You also assume some need or desire to "change people's ways". That isn't an issue for Aegon.

You were talking breaking the power of the Faith.

The Targ's lasted for quite a while. Even after they lost the dragons, they stayed on the throne. So, Aegon did something right.


I think you're missing that the stuff you want is likely more than could be done. It looks like more could be done, but there's always reasons why it couldn't happen.


That we can't see them, doesn't mean those problems don't exist.



Anyway. I've said my piece. Let's leave it at this point.
 

Emperor Tippy

Merchant of Death
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Staff Member
Founder
You were talking breaking the power of the Faith.
Which canonically Aegon and Maegor did without too much pushback.

And breaking the power of the Faith as an institution instead of as a religion is a matter different from ideology.

The Targ's lasted for quite a while. Even after they lost the dragons, they stayed on the throne. So, Aegon did something right.
Not really. The Targs kept dragons long enough to get inertia on their side. They kept "ruling" so long as it served everyone's interests to keep them on the throne.

The Dance of Dragons can basically be traced back to Aegon's failure to clearly and cleanly establish how the succession would be conducted. Well that and half measures on the part of Rhae.

---
Pre Dance the Targs were essentially absolute and able to do basically whatever they wanted. Post dance they reigned but their rule was only as heavy as the various Lords Paramount were willing to enforce. Largely because the Targs never broke the power of any of them or established their own competing institutions and power base.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
Been dead for waayy too long so here's me bumping it with a few fics.

The Empire of the Black Dragons

Maesters have dubbed it the Second Targaryen Golden Age.

It has been a century since the reign of Daeron, the Second of His Name. A hundred years of peace and prosperity, conquest and ascent, yet--

It ended in fire and blood. It ended in madness.

Following the death of Aerys the Mad, a Blackfyre now sits upon the Iron Throne. Daemon the Great has ruled an empire larger than any since the mythical Age of Dawn.

Nine years an alliance of Stark, Arryn, Tully, Baratheon, and Blackfyre has kept the peace.

Nine years the long summer of Daeron the Good, and Daemon Blackfyre after him, has survived past its false autumn.

But seasons change, and all ages come to an end.

And it's sequel The Years of Blood.

A Baleful Storm heralded the end of the Second Targaryen Golden Age, and the death of Daemon IV.

The heir apparent had drowned, and the Old Lion pounced on the Iron Throne, declaring Prince Maelys as King; his betrothed, Sansa, the Future Queen.

And of course, himself as Lord Protector. And so the heroes of Rebellion past, his enemies old and new, rise for - and against - the Captive King.

In the North, Robb Stark, the heir to Winterfell, vows to descend upon the South, with Winter in his heart.

In the Crownlands, a mad Queen crowns her youngest son.

In Essos, the sons of Khal Bharbo marshal their might for war, their greedy eyes set on the West.

In the Eighth Kingdom, Robert Baratheon prepares to conquer all of Near Essos; the Prince Maekar and his wife, Princess Daenerys his strongest allies.

But with all of Essos arrayed against them, and enemies within, the Empire of the Black Dragons would be drowned in years of blood.

Pretty expansive AU project, with multiple POD's, one of which features an earlier Dragonlord clan settling Westeros along the West Coast of the North. Which butterlfied a bunch of shit, setting the precedent Aegon later used to unite the Seven Kingdoms and the Velaryons colonizing Driftmark a full eighteen centuries before the Conquest. Daemon Blackfyre staying loyal and Aegon's ritual at Summerhall succeeding.

The Golden Emperor

Following the Doom of Valyria, the Targaryens hid like cravens on Dragonstone.

But in the east, dragonlord Aurion Varezys declared himself the first Emperor of Valyria. Atop his golden dragon, he led a host of 30,000 Qohorik legionnaires into the Valyrian peninsula, where he disappeared with his army.

400 years after the Doom, a red comet heralds the return of the dragon.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist

Probably one of my favorite ASOIAF fics... basically, poor Jon Snow going through multiple lives trying to avert a lot of bad stuff happening to his family.

"But you, Lord Snow, you'll be fighting their battles forever." Ser Alliser Thorne

Every time he died his last in that life he awoke again in another at the exact moment of Ghost's birth.

Quite dead, unfortunately.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
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Lol!

More seriously though, a Targaryen cadet branch in the Arbor assuming they have dragons puts the boot on a lot of throats.

Another off Fair Isle keeps the Ironborn contained too.
 

TheRomanSlayer

Unipolarists are the New Subhumans
There was one idea that I wanted to pitch, but unfortunately no one here in particular has watched Game of Thrones's Turkish clone, Muhtesem Yuzil and it's Kosem sequel. Basically it would either involve Ashara being ISOTed to Istanbul, a few months before Season Four of Muhtesem Yuzil starts, or Jon Snow being ISOTed to somewhere in Anatolia after the events of the Siege of Yerevan in Muhtesem Yuzil Kosem.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
Actually may start writing something
There was one idea that I wanted to pitch, but unfortunately no one here in particular has watched Game of Thrones's Turkish clone, Muhtesem Yuzil and it's Kosem sequel. Basically it would either involve Ashara being ISOTed to Istanbul, a few months before Season Four of Muhtesem Yuzil starts, or Jon Snow being ISOTed to somewhere in Anatolia after the events of the Siege of Yerevan in Muhtesem Yuzil Kosem.

Ashara in Istanbul presumably during the Ottoman Caliphate?
 

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