ASOIAF/GOT ASOIAF Ideas, Recs, and Discussion thread

[CarlManvers2019]

The Blackfyres are the epitome of what is wrong with Westeros’ noble class. A virulent strain of anti intellectualism, a disdain towards peace and non martial affairs, and boundless ambition tempered neither by religious restraint or the slightest hint of ethics.

Blackfyre apologists infuriate me. It’s basically rebelling and usurpation because some marcher Lords were unhappy with peace with Dorne, ambitious secondary houses(Like House Reyne), and because Daeron II was a bookish king who filled his court with scholars not warriors.

Daemon Blackfyre and his supporters got far more mercy than they ever deserved.
[/QUOTE]

This gave me an idea

During the reign of Daeron II “The Good” Targaryen, a portal opens up that leads to the groundworks for an eventual industrialization and modernization of Westeros

There come to be foreign investments and the beginnings of new and better infrastructure and a rising middle class in Westeros

While this occurs, Daemon Blackfyre plots to take over Westeros but has to deal with the foreigners and what changes they bring to the realm

Daemon Blackfyre makes an impassioned speech to the Nobility backing him, saying that not only is Daeron a weakling who isn’t slaughtering Dornishmen and has made peace with them and also is a bookish intellectual

What he’s doing can wreck their “way of life”

But knowing how powerful these “guns” are he had to do politicking

And maybe character development to realize that his ambitions are very douchey

 

[Deleted member 88]

So here’s a conquest era WI.

Rhaenys doesn’t die and Dorne surrenders. Basically no Dornish plot armor and the realm is unified from the get go.

I suspect firstly aegon and rhaenys will have more children(if aegon is infertile then rhaenys will have a lot of side lovers to get heirs).

The Aegonfort is finished, and Maegor is presumably never conceived.

Without rhaenys being dead and aegon being depressed, I would think he’d take a more active role in the governance of the realm besides his tours.

Perhaps making sure the targaryen family had the required heirs and working on developing bonds with his subjects.

With the Dornish as part of the realm, there would be fewer wars in the early years of Targaryen power.

I don’t see Jaeharys being king. Rhaenys living changes a lot of the situation that led to that.

No faith militant revolt(probably) Aegon would work to ensure the vis a vis with the faith was maintained, and the doctrine of exceptionalism would probably not come about-at least not in the same way.

Assuming the king after aegon is not as weak as Aenys-I expect more work to consolidate the realm would be made. Better roads, integrated trade, etc...

With no Dornish enemy the triarchy likely doesn’t play its games in the stepstones.

I would think rhaenys living would probably obviate most of the immediate post aegon I conflicts. Though I expect there’d be local revolts and the like.

Beyond that I’d need to look and see what aegon had in mind before his wife’s death.

 

[Deleted member 88]

So I read the latest chapter of Red Robb by Strangebloke on SB.

Eh? So Robb has Kevan Lannister burned alive. And the town of Fair Market is sacked and burned.

Uh cool I guess if you get catharsis from killing Lannister’s in revenge fics.

You know-given the state of the fandom and the wide availability of “Starks get revenge” fics that are generally bad, it might have been better if Strangebloke had written it years ago.

I’m not too sure what the outcome here is. Robb gets his revenge on the Lannister’s and their allies and then what?

Makes nice with Jon?

Because I don’t see any intra Stark conflict in the fic.

Robb is still a protagonist but a villainous one.

From the tone of the fic, I’m probably going to end up rooting for Daenerys or the Others by the time it’s over.

(personally I think Jaimie needs to run that undead monster Stoneheart through in Winds but I digress).

Robb burns the Riverlands, the Crownlands, probably the West as well, and uh? Then what? Aegon is coming, Dany and Euron are coming.

Does Strangebloke still want us to root for Robb once Casterly Rock is ashes and King’s Landing a corpse city?

Because in spite of his statements otherwise-He and his readers clearly sympathize with the undead murder machine, you know the life destroying avatar. With one reader unironically claiming “all the Lannister’s are evil”. Like wow. You can make an argument for that for every POV Lannister character, Tywin and Joffrey, but Daven? His sisters? Joy Hill? That’s like super awful and flatly false.

Anyway, looking forward to the next Purple Days update.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

The notion of Stark revenge fantasies are weird, in that they always involve some contrivance to make the Stark's act like shitkickers and always assume the Starks were always honorable.

Just have Cregan Stark wake up in Robb's body and you'd have fuckers hung up by their entrails all over wyrwood throughout the westerlands.


People forget the Starks were basically Beast men for about 98% of their existence and Eddard and his kids being boyscouts is the exception not the norm.

So I read the latest chapter of Red Robb by Strangebloke on SB.

Eh? So Robb has Kevan Lannister burned alive. And the town of Fair Market is sacked and burned.

Uh cool I guess if you get catharsis from killing Lannister’s in revenge fics.

You know-given the state of the fandom and the wide availability of “Starks get revenge” fics that are generally bad, it might have been better if Strangebloke had written it years ago.

I’m not too sure what the outcome here is. Robb gets his revenge on the Lannister’s and their allies and then what?

Makes nice with Jon?

Because I don’t see any intra Stark conflict in the fic.

Robb is still a protagonist but a villainous one.

From the tone of the fic, I’m probably going to end up rooting for Daenerys or the Others by the time it’s over.

(personally I think Jaimie needs to run that undead monster Stoneheart through in Winds but I digress).

Robb burns the Riverlands, the Crownlands, probably the West as well, and uh? Then what? Aegon is coming, Dany and Euron are coming.

Does Strangebloke still want us to root for Robb once Casterly Rock is ashes and King’s Landing a corpse city?

Because in spite of his statements otherwise-He and his readers clearly sympathize with the undead murder machine, you know the life destroying avatar. With one reader unironically claiming “all the Lannister’s are evil”. Like wow. You can make an argument for that for every POV Lannister character, Tywin and Joffrey, but Daven? His sisters? Joy Hill? That’s like super awful and flatly false.

Anyway, looking forward to the next Purple Days update.

Isn't that the one where he comes back as a zombie?

 

[Deleted member 88]

The notion of Start revenge fantasies is weird, in that they always involve some contrivance to make the Stark's act like shitkickers and always assume the Starks were always honorable.

Just have Cregan Stark wake up in Robb's body and you'd have fuckers hung up by their entrails all over wyrwood throughout the westerlands.


People forget the Starks were basically Beast men for about 98% of their existence and Eddard and his kids being boyscouts is the exception not the norm.




Isn't that the one where he comes back as a zombie?

Red Robb and the Burning of the Riverlands (ASOIAF)

Sometimes, the pain only truly begins after you die

forums.spacebattles.com

On your point, the Starks were pretty awful and villainous. For most of their history. Hard men, but also brutal men.

That’s the link of it though for your viewing pleasure.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

People forget the Starks were basically Beast men for about 98% of their existence and Eddard and his kids being boyscouts is the exception not the norm.

Honestly, I bet Ned’s older brother Brandon Stark compared to him would be absolutely gleeful and eager for war and probably be way less traumatized about the thought of killing children and would be a mini-Robert Baratheon if he had the cash to fund numerous tourneys

Ned’s more apathetic to having or even disgusted with such ambitions and bloodlust

Honestly, I kinda look down on most Westerosi Nobility because I think their vision doesn’t even involve much in-terms of building new infrastructure or paving the way for more intellectual and artistic pursuits

Instead they’re a bunch of beasts ruled by their instincts with little true-longterm planning

Dawn comes on the Sunset Sea (ASoIaF, GOT/Civilization: Beyond Earth Crossover)

An expedition to save humanity goes horribly wrong, stranding thousands of colonists on an alien world with... humans?! Welcome to Westeros Earthers. Be careful to not let the cold in.

forums.spacebattles.com

Hell, I bet if this got updated more regularly, Westerosi Nobility would have on average a hard time understanding the guys around aren’t simply some other House with the same bestial instincts as them

And probably look down on anybody who likes those “feminine” hobbies more than Kill, Maim, Burn+Torture, Loot, Rape, Molest, Desecrate etc. Even more for being disgusted with the latter and incapable of understanding why people’d be disgusted with it.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

This gave me an idea

During the reign of Daeron II “The Good” Targaryen, a portal opens up that leads to the groundworks for an eventual industrialization and modernization of Westeros

There come to be foreign investments and the beginnings of new and better infrastructure and a rising middle class in Westeros

While this occurs, Daemon Blackfyre plots to take over Westeros but has to deal with the foreigners and what changes they bring to the realm

Daemon Blackfyre makes an impassioned speech to the Nobility backing him, saying that not only is Daeron a weakling who isn’t slaughtering Dornishmen and has made peace with them and also is a bookish intellectual

What he’s doing can wreck their “way of life”

But knowing how powerful these “guns” are he had to do politicking

And maybe character development to realize that his ambitions are very douchey

Why does everyone want to industrialize Westeros?

I wanna see is a cadet branch of house Baratheon or Targaryen that ends up being replaced by this glorious motherfucker and his family.

Red Robb and the Burning of the Riverlands (ASOIAF)

Sometimes, the pain only truly begins after you die

forums.spacebattles.com

On your point, the Starks were pretty awful and villainous. For most of their history. Hard men, but also brutal men.

That’s the link of it though for your viewing pleasure.

Cregan's solution to resolving the Dance was...honest at least.

TBH I honestly would enjoy seeing Starks, as Starks in the war of the five kings..Mind ye Eddard likely wouldn't have died at KL, though I could see Eddard the "Grim Wolf" try and convince Robert to let him take Tyrion as a hostage.

 

[Deleted member 88]

I honestly would love to see an 18th century Westeros. With the noble houses reduced to bored aristocrats that spend their days partying and carousing.

You thought King’s Landing was decadent in Robert’s day, imagine Westeros in the same technological time frame as late Versailles.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

I honestly would love to see an 18th century Westeros. With the noble houses reduced to bored aristocrats that spend their days partying and carousing.

You thought King’s Landing was decadent in Robert’s day, imagine Westeros in the same technological time frame as late Versailles.

A story like that with House Blackwater ending up like the Taipans of old would be amusing honestly.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Why does everyone want to industrialize Westeros?

At least a renaissance era? Westeros has less infrastructure when it comes to arts and sciences and philosophy/europe than the “Dark Ages” of Europe

I’ve heard before the only reason the Citadel even exists is because its in the Reach where they’ve got the most fertile ground and can free up hands for more fancy pursuits. It also has to do with winter preventing easier infrastructure

If the story regarding Peremore Hightower is true, I think it's safe to say most nobles on average are too macho to care about intellectual pursuits, kinda lucky that his brother actually decided to entertain the Maesters by giving them land

 

[Doomsought]

Westeros is closer to late Iron age and has been stuck in a rut because the empire became overstretched when they lost access to the magic that was used to found the empire. Most of the epic castles were made by late bronze age wizards like Bran the Builder.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

At least a renaissance era? Westeros has less infrastructure when it comes to arts and sciences and philosophy/europe than the “Dark Ages” of Europe

I don't think you get how sophisticated Westeros is in certain aspects. Bathing for example is a universally "frequent" thing amongst all people. The average life expectancy seems to be 70 even among the poor and its not uncommon for the nobility to reach 90 or even 110.

They have wound care and medical knowledge that wasn't seen in Europe after the fall of Rome until the 1700s and it seems like castles have working sewer systems given the sheer size of the Red Keep and where Tywin was killed after taking a shit.

They are rather advanced in some areas and not in others. People overlook this because swords and horses and its rather odd.

As tippy and others said here, one need only introduce things like bleach to Westeros to see dramatic changes.

Also what battlegrinder said. The high Tower is like the size of the Empire State Building, the wall is wild and Winterfell is fucking insane.

Pretty sure Winter fell and the Eryie are the size of Amenhoteps palace and the redkeep the size Weiyang palace except with fucking multi story towers and shit that would be impossible until very recently all this owing to sorcery which went dormant for some reason.

Namely Martin being lazy

Any way they didn't need a tech revolution when sorcerers wandered the earth and you could build monsters like Dragonstone and Ashai by the Shadow.

 

[Deleted member 88]

Westeros is closer to late Iron age and has been stuck in a rut because the empire became overstretched when they lost access to the magic that was used to found the empire. Most of the epic castles were made by late bronze age wizards like Bran the Builder.

Westeros isn’t an Iron Age. It’s vaguely in the 1450s. Though it depends on where you are. The Free Cities have technologies that are arguably early renaissance(except gunpowder), while parts of Essos are at a Bronze Age level.

Westeros itself isn’t directly analogous to the War of the Roses. The castles are much more magnificent, basically every lord has a library, the maesters are a separate order from the faith, the armor in Westeros-for the high nobles the armor is extremely elaborate, often more so than what French Dukes or English Barons would have had.

Of course some of that is due to magic. Anyways, ISOT westeros to the late 15th century, and it would be(barring gunpowder) fairly equal with Europe.

 

[Aldarion]

Westeros itself isn’t directly analogous to the War of the Roses. The castles are much more magnificent, basically every lord has a library, the maesters are a separate order from the faith, the armor in Westeros-for the high nobles the armor is extremely elaborate, often more so than what French Dukes or English Barons would have had.

On the flip side though there appears to be no munitions plate, or even general half-plate infantry armour as was common in 15th century. All descriptions of infantry I remember have them using mail or quilted armour.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Spoiler

If the Raven doesn't speak, kill it.

Spoiler

If the Raven doesn't speak, make it speak

Spoiler

If the Raven Doesn't speak, wait for it to speak.

- Lord Tormund Tarley "sword poet" on the "three faces of change"



"The ascent of House Blackwater to the Throne of Westeros in the year 492 A.C, has been a subject of intense debate, some believe it was the death of King Bran the Broken in 425 A.C that precipitated it's rise, yet the Broken king's powers had transferred to a new master of Whispers. How then could they have defied his sight? Many at the Citadel contend that it was the marriage of Jeneara Blackfyre to Lord Joffrey Blackwater in that same year, the coming of many Volanteens of Valyrian descent to settle there. Their queer sorceries and the return of Targaryen blood perhaps put a blinder on the powers of the three eyed Raven. Perhaps it was that the new master of Whispers and his three eyes merely saw the conquest of the North and the lands beyond the wall as beneficial for Westeros and knew only King Bronn the first had the vision to achieve it.

Or perhaps simply, the blood not of the Dragon but of an opportunistic sellsword who survived the war of the five kings, the fall of house Targaryen and the ascent of King Brandon the Broken, the Redwyne rebellion and the return of the Dothraki to establish one of the greatest dynasties in History bearing out.

After all, are not the words of House Blackwater "Sense, opportunity, timing"?

Bit of a shitposty idea built on the absolute clusterfuck ending that was the TV show...But it occured to me..Bronn kinda won the game...at the end and it might be interesting to explore how that changes things.

 

[Deleted member 88]

492 AC? That would mean Bran reigned for over a century.

Well Bloodraven lived over a century.

Anyway, I expect a century long rule by the heir of Brynden Rivers to have greater effects on Westeros as well.

House Blackwater might not exist.

Bran was also hunting for Drogon.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

@The Immortal Watch Dog
Say, ever read Kane by Karl Edward Wagner?

Because I’m noticing similarities with the novel Kane: Bloodstone with that of Yi-Ti’s Bloodstone Emperor

Bloodstone Emperor

The Bloodstone Emperor was the legendary ninth and last ruler of the mythic Great Empire of the Dawn. He was the son of the Opal Emperor and the younger brother of the Amethyst Empress, who succeeded their father. Envious, he slew his sister and proclaimed himself the Bloodstone Emperor.[1]

awoiaf.westeros.org

The Bufanoids are Coming

Does anyone know what a Bufanoid is? The context here is Karl Edward Wagners Bloodstone (Kane). In the novel Kane gets an army of froglike Rillyti, said to be degenerate ancestors of the Krelrans. Wagner frequently uses Batrachian as an adjective to describe the Rillyti, which makes sense because...

asoiaf.westeros.org

Kane

The Kane series is a Heroic Fantasy series by Karl Edward Wagner, about a Barbarian Anti-Hero or Villain Protagonist who has been cursed by a Mad God to an eternal life of wandering. Not to be confused with Robert E. Howard's Solomon Kane. Or …

tvtropes.org

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

@The Immortal Watch Dog
Say, ever read Kane by Karl Edward Wagner?

Because I’m noticing similarities with the novel Kane: Bloodstone with that of Yi-Ti’s Bloodstone Emperor

Bloodstone Emperor

The Bloodstone Emperor was the legendary ninth and last ruler of the mythic Great Empire of the Dawn. He was the son of the Opal Emperor and the younger brother of the Amethyst Empress, who succeeded their father. Envious, he slew his sister and proclaimed himself the Bloodstone Emperor.[1]

awoiaf.westeros.org

The Bufanoids are Coming

Does anyone know what a Bufanoid is? The context here is Karl Edward Wagners Bloodstone (Kane). In the novel Kane gets an army of froglike Rillyti, said to be degenerate ancestors of the Krelrans. Wagner frequently uses Batrachian as an adjective to describe the Rillyti, which makes sense because...

asoiaf.westeros.org

Kane

The Kane series is a Heroic Fantasy series by Karl Edward Wagner, about a Barbarian Anti-Hero or Villain Protagonist who has been cursed by a Mad God to an eternal life of wandering. Not to be confused with Robert E. Howard's Solomon Kane. Or …

tvtropes.org

It's a fairly common archetype in pulp fiction if we're being honest and Martin much as he likes to pretend dissatisfaction with Tolkien (Because he was a doofus who should have read Dune or the Godfather instead) motivated ASOIAF, it's clear its origins are in pulp.

492 AC? That would mean Bran reigned for over a century.

He'd have died in 425 AC and passed his abilities and experiences on to a new guy who became the Master of Whispers, which thewn would begin a trend of the spymaster being the three eyed Raven.


I figured between 425 and 492, there'd have been say..A Martell, a Tully, an Arryn, a Royce and Dayne or Greyjoy..With the North remaining independent and expelled from the voting process around say..440 AC

Well Bloodraven lived over a century.

Remember, this would be based more on the TV show than the novels. The dude who passed his powers to Bran had apparently been stuck in that tree for thousands of years.

I figure Bran not being stuck in a tree, wouldn't last as long..

Anyway, I expect a century long rule by the heir of Brynden Rivers to have greater effects on Westeros as well.

considerable effects...Which I'd innumerate as the story went on..This is also HBO's Tardverse...so

House Blackwater might not exist.

Nah, Bronn isn't stupid enough to rock the boat presumably his sons and grandsons would have inherited his sense given the theme of the house I'd be going with if I bothered writing this. Though you'd have to wonder why Bran allowed them to intermarry with the Blackfyre's to the point where they're as much Dragon as Sellsword. Unless he had a plan...or knew someshit was going down with magic.

Besides, this is the bed Benoif and Weis made, whether they meant too or not.

Bran was also hunting for Drogon.

Yes he was!

 

[CarlManvers2019]

It's a fairly common archetype in pulp fiction if we're being honest and Martin much as he likes to pretend dissatisfaction with Tolkien (Because he was a doofus who should have read Dune or the Godfather instead) motivated ASOIAF, it's clear its origins are in pulp.

Yeah, they both seem to probably share the whole many forgotten “Elder Races” and Eldritch Horrors lurking and being worshipped but not always interacting with their followers thing

That said, I thought GRRM read Karl Edward Wagner’s works as part of the inspiration for A World or Ice and Fire, specifically the Bloodstone

That said, funny, I think the Tales of Dunk & Egg are gonna sound pretty Pulp-ish in future volumes of it

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

If Martin bothers to continue to write anything in the setting..Big guy seems kinda gassed out.