Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

WolfBear

Well-known member

Isn't military cooperation with the West, you know, sort of necessary in order to ensure Ukraine's security? Just as a backup measure in the event that Russia will still ever try conquering Ukraine? (Because Hitler didn't stop with the Sudetenland and thus there is no guarantee that Russian leaders will stop after getting their initial demands satisfied.)
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member

Isn't military cooperation with the West, you know, sort of necessary in order to ensure Ukraine's security? Just as a backup measure in the event that Russia will still ever try conquering Ukraine? (Because Hitler didn't stop with the Sudetenland and thus there is no guarantee that Russian leaders will stop after getting their initial demands satisfied.)
>anti-empire
More like anti-west, simping for any empire as long as it's not western. Didn't even bother to read about the Ukrainian indepencence attempt in 1920's.
Of course inviting Russia into NATO at this point would at best create another Turkey-Greece situation except on crack, and at worst outright break the alliance. Though again, for the author that's a feature, not a bug i suspect.

Secondly, since a long time the "deep ties" between Russia and Ukraine were something the latter got increasingly sick of due to how Russia was insisting on being in charge of that relatonship without much tolerance for disagreement.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
>anti-empire
More like anti-west, simping for any empire as long as it's not western. Didn't even bother to read about the Ukrainian indepencence attempt in 1920's.
Of course inviting Russia into NATO at this point would at best create another Turkey-Greece situation except on crack, and at worst outright break the alliance. Though again, for the author that's a feature, not a bug i suspect.

Secondly, since a long time the "deep ties" between Russia and Ukraine were something the latter got increasingly sick of due to how Russia was insisting on being in charge of that relatonship without much tolerance for disagreement.

Well, his blog is pretty good in its military and political analysis in general, other than on this specific question. His general takes on the Ukrainian war have been pretty good.

And Yep, very good point about a second Turkey-Greece situation in such a scenario. Russia would still be able to bully Ukraine if both of them were in NATO because Russia would be much larger than Ukraine would be and thus its interests would likely be deemed more valuable and important than those of Ukraine. Similar to how the West refuses to seriously punish Turkey for its decades-long Northern Cyprus occupation.

Yep, absolutely! Ukraine was pretty friendly towards Russia until Russia began aggressively trying to integrate Ukraine deeper and deeper back into the Russian World. Had Russia been cool with Ukraine's Westward trajectory, then there would have been no problems!
 

ATP

Well-known member

Isn't military cooperation with the West, you know, sort of necessary in order to ensure Ukraine's security? Just as a backup measure in the event that Russia will still ever try conquering Ukraine? (Because Hitler didn't stop with the Sudetenland and thus there is no guarantee that Russian leaders will stop after getting their initial demands satisfied.)

Author do not undarstandt situation.
American deep state wonted sell Ukraine to Moscov for support against China - but Putin refused,becouse he belived that his invicible legions could take entire country in weeks.

And now,we have what we have.Do not worry,when putin kgb friends schoot him,they would made such deal.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Author do not undarstandt situation.
American deep state wonted sell Ukraine to Moscov for support against China - but Putin refused,becouse he belived that his invicible legions could take entire country in weeks.

And now,we have what we have.Do not worry,when putin kgb friends schoot him,they would made such deal.
Nah, this pet theory of yours is getting boring.
The biggest problem here on all sides is that Moscow's worth was overvalued, by the West, by China, and most of all, by Moscow itself. That's what made deals so hard to make. They always asked so much that they made everyone think they aren't serious, and being Moscow, they may or may not stick to the deal anyway, also thinking that they are still being undervalued and in fact deserve to be one of 3 superpowers alongside USA and China like in the old days, aka "multipolar world". While in reality they fell down at least 1, and possibly 2 leagues below that, with the correction putting them somewhere around Pakistan, Iran and Turkey.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Nah, this pet theory of yours is getting boring.
The biggest problem here on all sides is that Moscow's worth was overvalued, by the West, by China, and most of all, by Moscow itself. That's what made deals so hard to make. They always asked so much that they made everyone think they aren't serious, and being Moscow, they may or may not stick to the deal anyway, also thinking that they are still being undervalued and in fact deserve to be one of 3 superpowers alongside USA and China like in the old days, aka "multipolar world". While in reality they fell down at least 1, and possibly 2 leagues below that, with the correction putting them somewhere around Pakistan, Iran and Turkey.

Then explain ,why Biden lifted sanction on NS2,and 19.2.2022 promised light sanction if Moscov take only small part of Ukraine?
They had a deal,and Putin fucked it.
Good for everybody,even ukrainians and postsoviets.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Then explain ,why Biden lifted sanction on NS2,
Because German "allies" were extra pissy about it and their mood matters a lot in relations with the EU.
and 19.2.2022 promised light sanction if Moscov take only small part of Ukraine?
Because he wanted to avoid dealing with a serious mess like this if possible. If Russia stopped at formalizing the separatist republic takeover, that would have been just a minor mess that can be kicked down the timeline, preferably into some future president's lap. Slap some extra sanctions on it and go back to doing some corona, climate or diversity bullshit, stuff that democrats really care about.
They had a deal,and Putin fucked it.
Good for everybody,even ukrainians and postsoviets.
They didn't have a deal, they had an understanding. You don't do much, we don't do much.
But Putin smelt weakness and in fact did opt to do much.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Because German "allies" were extra pissy about it and their mood matters a lot in relations with the EU.

Because he wanted to avoid dealing with a serious mess like this if possible. If Russia stopped at formalizing the separatist republic takeover, that would have been just a minor mess that can be kicked down the timeline, preferably into some future president's lap. Slap some extra sanctions on it and go back to doing some corona, climate or diversity bullshit, stuff that democrats really care about.

They didn't have a deal, they had an understanding. You don't do much, we don't do much.
But Putin smelt weakness and in fact did opt to do much.


Well,let agree,that we disagree.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik

Isn't military cooperation with the West, you know, sort of necessary in order to ensure Ukraine's security? Just as a backup measure in the event that Russia will still ever try conquering Ukraine? (Because Hitler didn't stop with the Sudetenland and thus there is no guarantee that Russian leaders will stop after getting their initial demands satisfied.)

He spent the first half of the article masturbating to himself. I almost missed the actual thrust of the article because I skimmed over the Biden quotes. Then I read them and was like... Oh is this news to someone? Mainstream YouTuber Alternate History Hub did like two videos on Russia Joining NATO. It wasn't some lost lore or anything. It was being widely discussed. And often derided.

And he needs to stop using replacement buzzwords in explaining things like "Imperial Capitol" and "Empire" for the West I'm assuming. And his secondary headline "But why would DC do that? Mass East Slav fratricide is great for the Empire" is apparently supported by only the last two lines of his article? I'm guessing of course he's posted many bloviated articles on his Substack about it, but regardless still barely mentioned here.

He needs to spend less time masturbating to himself as a writer/prophet and more actually... I dunno... writing about the subject in his header.
 

lloyd007

Well-known member
Alleged Video of Russian POW's taken by the Ukrainian Forces. Admire their kit.


Rant Mode ON: The whole 'Oooh WW2 helmets!' is such a BS argument considering its only now that helmets are coming out of that MIGHT stop rifle rounds while also being in any ways practical and usable. WW2 helmets that can stop incidental shrapnel while being comfortable enough that soldiers will actually wear them is basically 95%+ of the way there compared to any other helmet other than the claims of those newest models that are probably made of compressed $100 bills.

Rant Mode OFF: Yes, that kit they're wearing overall looks like crap and probably performs about as well as it looks...
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Rant Mode ON: The whole 'Oooh WW2 helmets!' is such a BS argument considering its only now that helmets are coming out of that MIGHT stop rifle rounds while also being in any ways practical and usable. WW2 helmets that can stop incidental shrapnel while being comfortable enough that soldiers will actually wear them is basically 95%+ of the way there compared to any other helmet other than the claims of those newest models that are probably made of compressed $100 bills.

Rant Mode OFF: Yes, that kit they're wearing overall looks like crap and probably performs about as well as it looks...
Note that it's not even the *good* WW2 helmet pattern (US/German style) though. There is also a reason why everyone and their dog has switched to kevlar/synthetics over steel and why shapes of new helmets are so similar. It doesn't make a massive difference, but it is indicative of the kit availability. More notably, if they have steel on their heads, that raises questions over what, if anything, they have in their plate carriers, and that makes more difference.
 

lloyd007

Well-known member
Note that it's not even the *good* WW2 helmet pattern (US/German style) though. There is also a reason why everyone and their dog has switched to kevlar/synthetics over steel and why shapes of new helmets are so similar. It doesn't make a massive difference, but it is indicative of the kit availability. More notably, if they have steel on their heads, that raises questions over what, if anything, they have in their plate carriers, and that makes more difference.
Note that I'm not trying to make a Pierre Sprey 'M60 is better than Abrams' argument that many modern helmets don't have the benefit of decades of R&D in making them even more comfortable and protective, just that in the case of protection everything I've ever read or seen on the subject of helmets makes very clear that once a helmet reaches a 'threshold' of protection... the returns in trying to increase that protection are almost nothing until you reach the next threshold.

And yes, I'm well aware a lot of Russian 'armor plate' is basically sheet metal only as protective as their helmets or maybe even less so.
 

Buba

A total creep
I agree that using WWII helmets is nothing to get too excited about. Yeah, shows that the Russians are scrapping the bottom of the barrel, but not exactly earth shattering.

What @lloyd007 said - they do the job well enough. Even Brodies, Adrians or Stahlhelms - even if suboptimal - would deliver on a helmet's main job - protection of head against fragments.

@Marduk - there is nothing particularly special about German and US WWII helmet shapes - Soviet or Italian ones were equally "good enough". And by '43 or so Germany was looking into dumping the "iconic" Stahlhelm and designed this:
8377.jpg
 
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Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Note that I'm not trying to make a Pierre Sprey 'M60 is better than Abrams' argument that many modern helmets don't have the benefit of decades of R&D in making them even more comfortable and protective, just that in the case of protection everything I've ever read or seen on the subject of helmets makes very clear that once a helmet reaches a 'threshold' of protection... the returns in trying to increase that protection are almost nothing until you reach the next threshold.

And yes, I'm well aware a lot of Russian 'armor plate' is basically sheet metal only as protective as their helmets or maybe even less so.

I agree that using WWII helmets is nothing to get too excited about. Yeah, shows that the Russians are scrapping the bottom of the barrel, but not exactly earth shattering.

What @lloyd007 said - they do the job well enough. Even Brodies, Adrians or Stahlhelms - even if suboptimal - would deliver on a helmet's main job - protection of head against fragments.

@Marduk - there is nothing particularly special about German and US WWII helmet shapes - Soviet or Italian ones were equally "good enough". And by '43 or so Germany was looking into dumping the "iconic" Stahlhelm and designed this:
8377.jpg
Fragments are one thing (and modern helmets can stop considerably heavier, faster fragments), the major differences are also in ergonomics, protected areas and blast dispersion.
That's a study done on some historical helmets and ACH considering blast pressures alone, and the results are kinda interesting while at it.
TL;DR, yes, in many metrics they are similar, but French helmets have a feature that give them better shockwave attenuation, but are worse at preventing eardrum rupture.
Also forget about compatibility with modern comms and NVGs with these old helmets, but oh well, Russians solve that problem by not having them anyway.
 

ATP

Well-known member
He spent the first half of the article masturbating to himself. I almost missed the actual thrust of the article because I skimmed over the Biden quotes. Then I read them and was like... Oh is this news to someone? Mainstream YouTuber Alternate History Hub did like two videos on Russia Joining NATO. It wasn't some lost lore or anything. It was being widely discussed. And often derided.

And he needs to stop using replacement buzzwords in explaining things like "Imperial Capitol" and "Empire" for the West I'm assuming. And his secondary headline "But why would DC do that? Mass East Slav fratricide is great for the Empire" is apparently supported by only the last two lines of his article? I'm guessing of course he's posted many bloviated articles on his Substack about it, but regardless still barely mentioned here.

He needs to spend less time masturbating to himself as a writer/prophet and more actually... I dunno... writing about the subject in his header.

He do not undarstandt situation - but,Imperial Capitol and Empire are,at least,cool.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist

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