Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

[History Learner]

Uh, we can produce more then enough.

No, we can't:

And we arnt running out.

But we are, on everything from artillery shells to Javelins:

If we were we wouldn't be getting ready for the war. Training would be on the backburner. It isn't

That implies these two are contradictory; they're not. We are starting from a low, very poor base as the Pentagon's assessment of the U.S. defense industry reveals. Part of the reason we provoked this conflict was to help our efforts in rebuilding said industrial base.

 

[Zachowon]

Again, History.
You need to realize. The military will always play victim if it means we get more money to make more things.

But at least we arnt Russia having to buy from Iran, North Korea.
And can easily make it up should we need too.

 

[History Learner]

Again, History.
You need to realize. The military will always play victim if it means we get more money to make more things.

Again, Zachowon, the Pentagon doesn't control the laws of physics. It takes years to build the production lines necessary to get the material we need. Case in point of this is how the PLAAF is getting J-20s faster than we are getting F-35s nowadays; was that intentional?

But at least we arnt Russia having to buy from Iran, North Korea.

No, we're worse because we're buying T-55s from Slovenia:

And can easily make it up should we need too.

Is that why we are nowhere near our naval or aerial production goals?

 

[Zachowon]

Again, Zachowon, the Pentagon doesn't control the laws of physics. It takes years to build the production lines necessary to get the material we need. Case in point of this is how the PLAAF is getting J-20s faster than we are getting F-35s nowadays; was that intentional?



No, we're worse because we're buying T-55s from Slovenia:





Is that why we are nowhere near our naval or aerial production goals?

I said US not Ukraine.
And T62s basic models have been seen with cope cages.


Because we build better quality and still fast?
Most of the western militaries are getting the 35.
How many countries gave gotten the SUs?

And the M55 is a upgraded T55. Better and NATO standard

 

[History Learner]

I said US not Ukraine.

Indeed, the lack of American capacity is exactly what I've been talking about; why would I cite a GAO report on the U.S. Armed Forces if I was talking about Ukraine?

And T62s basic models have been seen with cope cages.

Cool, and we're sending even more ancient T-55s to help them.

Because we build better quality and still fast?
Most of the western militaries are getting the 35.
How many countries gave gotten the SUs?

But they haven't, because we still can't get it to serial production yet. Further, the F-35 isn't artillery shells or missiles, is it? You noticeable sidestepped those elements. Continuously repeating the cope we can, when we demonstrably cannot, is silly.

And the M55 is a upgraded T55. Better and NATO standard

So why the double standard on T-62s, then, given its a newer, more capable platform that is also being modernized by the Russians to the same extent the T-55s have been by Slovenia?

 

[Marduk]

But they haven't, because we still can't get it to serial production yet. Further, the F-35 isn't artillery shells or missiles, is it? You noticeable sidestepped those elements. Continuously repeating the cope we can, when we demonstrably cannot, is silly.

Ah, i'm seeing a bunch if insanely clueless things being said about military stuff, and guess who i see...
>no serial production
I might be ESL but you can't fucking tell "serial production" from "full rate production". Learn to fucking read, get an IQ transplant, or something, because this is fucking ridiculous.
What do you call "serial production" in modern jets if 860 built doesn't count as serial production?

Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Most modern fighters don't get as much built through their whole history.
Look at production numbers of any modern Russian fighter and weep.

So why the double standard on T-62s, then, given its a newer, more capable platform that is also being modernized by the Russians to the same extent the T-55s have been by Slovenia?

And yet another time you prove that you have no fucking clue about the stuff you talk about.
Yes, so great and capable. It's an overweight T-55, with all the consequences of that.
And some of the versions showing up aren't even modernized much, nevermind to the degree of Slovenian T-55's. Which in their particular modernization doesn't have the old ass 100mm gun, replacing it with a 105mm L7, a NATO classic gun used up until early models of M1 Abrams and Merkava (and is still used in several western wheeled tank destroyers made in XXI century), so the main upgrade of T-62 over T-55 is not just matched but surpassed in their case. And let's not even get into the electronic guts...

 

[History Learner]

Ah, i'm seeing a bunch if insanely clueless things being said about military stuff, and guess who i see...
>no serial production
I might be ESL but you can't fucking tell "serial production" from "full rate production". Learn to fucking read, get an IQ transplant, or something, because this is fucking ridiculous.
What do you call "serial production" in modern jets if 860 built doesn't count as serial production?

Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Most modern fighters don't get as much built through their whole history.

Your lack of basic knowledge of the English language tends to be the issue, given serial production and mass production are the same thing. As for the airframe production rates, the F-35 first flew in the mid 2000s. 16 years, with 860 frames total, means yearly production is just 53 when their mass production goal, as officially stated, is over 150 frames. I know you are too retarded to understand basic math numbers, as usual, but that means they're only hitting about 30% of their production targets, which are officially defined by them as mass production.

Look at production numbers of any modern Russian fighter and weep.

No reason to weep when the Russians rival the F-35 production run with varied types?

And yet another time you prove that you have no fucking clue about the stuff you talk about.
Yes, so great and capable. It's an overweight T-55, with all the consequences of that.
And some of the versions showing up aren't even modernized much, nevermind to the degree of Slovenian T-55's. Which in their particular modernization doesn't have the old ass 100mm gun, replacing it with a 105mm L7, a NATO classic gun used up until early models of M1 Abrams and Merkava, so the main upgrade of T-62 over T-55 is not just matched but surpassed in their case. And let's not even get into the electronic guts...

Hey Marduk, if you don't even know the T-62 baseline has a 115 mm main gun, perhaps you shouldn't argue you with your superior on the other details, no? The reason you didn't go into ERA, the electronics or the qualities of the 62 vs the 55 is simply because your little brain is far too inferior to engage with your betters, of course, but in truth if you did go down that route you'd get more embarrassed to find out the main tank of the AFU....is T-64s.

 

[History Learner]

a) Because all other sources that aren't crazy propagandists put Ukrainian military losses in 10-30k territory.
b) Because even a worst singular city battle contributes estimated 10-20k of dead civilians alone, up to 1/5 of that figure.
c) The very loose estimate of "tens of thousands, hope it's not over 100k" was referring to the absolute total, which includes areas held currently by Russia, which Ukraine cannot get any proper data from, while intel of more Bucha style behavior is probably arriving. Bucha alone contributed 1k dead, and that's a town that had a population of 36k before the war.

Mariupol mayor says siege has killed more than 10K civilians

The mayor of the Ukrainian port city of Mariupol says more than 10,000 civilians have died in the Russian siege of his city and the full death toll could surpass twice that number

abcnews.go.com

I truly don't get the point of your bullshit. Like, you're obviously not unintelligent. (Even if you act pretty damn dumb!) I can't believe you'd look at the overall strategic picture, of forced Russian withdrawal and protracted gruelling fighting, and honestly believe that the reality is 100,000 Ukrainian military losses for only 4,000 Russian KIA.

But now your interpreting Illia Ponomarenko is stating that Ukraine has suffered ten thousand dead and forty thousand overall casualties in three weeks, more then doubling the total casualties and eclipsing the previous six months of the War based off of comments made by Arestoyvych "Something like that" while discounting comments made by the Armed Forces of Ukraine of 9000 a month ago?

So, who is wanting to admit they were wrong first and I was right, by the way?

WASHINGTON — Russia’s war in Ukraine has left more than 100,000 of Moscow’s troops dead or wounded, and Ukraine has probably suffered a similar number of casualties, the United States’ most senior general said this week.​

​

“You’re looking at well over 100,000 Russian soldiers killed and wounded,” Gen. Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said in remarks at the Economic Club of New York on Wednesday. “Same thing probably on the Ukrainian side.”​

 

[Marduk]

So, who is wanting to admit they were wrong first and I was right, by the way?

WASHINGTON — Russia’s war in Ukraine has left more than 100,000 of Moscow’s troops dead or wounded, and Ukraine has probably suffered a similar number of casualties, the United States’ most senior general said this week.​

​

“You’re looking at well over 100,000 Russian soldiers killed and wounded,” Gen. Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said in remarks at the Economic Club of New York on Wednesday. “Same thing probably on the Ukrainian side.”​

What Milley says in Economic Club of New York is not official data, so guess you want to admit yet again that you are a clown.

Your lack of basic knowledge of the English language tends to be the issue, given serial production and mass production are the same thing. As for the airframe production rates, the F-35 first flew in the mid 2000s. 16 years, with 860 frames total, means yearly production is just 53 when their mass production goal, as officially stated, is over 150 frames. I know you are too retarded to understand basic math numbers, as usual, but that means they're only hitting about 30% of their production targets, which are officially defined by them as mass production.

So? My point stands, learn to fucking read, because that is pretty good serial production. Just that the politicians would have wanted even bigger serial production doesn't mean that they are being made in prototype or small scale batches.
"Less than 100% of intended production target is not serial production" is a fucking joke of a dodge out of your clear lack of understanding of basic terms.

No reason to weep when the Russians rival the F-35 production run with varied types?

Hey funny guy, did you know that USA still makes other types alongside F-35 too?

Hey Marduk, if you don't even know the T-62 baseline has a 115 mm main gun, perhaps you shouldn't argue you with your superior on the other details, no? The reason you didn't go into ERA, the electronics or the qualities of the 62 vs the 55 is simply because your little brain is far too inferior to engage with your betters, of course, but in truth if you did go down that route you'd get more embarrassed to find out the main tank of the AFU....is T-64s.

Superior fool you mean, as in the saying that "nature always invents a greater fool"?
Caliber, really? Yes, i was as smart as you... when i was 12.
By your logic Soviets were stupid to use 115mm guns because they already had IS-2 with a 122mm gun, so muh number bigger, they are still better than Leopard 2 and M1A2 with their puny 120mm guns. Fuck off with that idiocy and learn about technology, tank ammunition and penetration values a bit.
ERA? M-55S has 90's Israeli ERA, certainly no worse than the Kontakt-1 of T-62MV.
You are a living avatar of the Dunning-Kruger.
I won't even go into electronics because that would be throwing pearls before swine.
Why don't you first go and check what's the penetration of best shell for U-5TS, compare it to best L7 shells, and them come back to talk to me, equipped with some basic bloody knowledge?

 

[WolfBear]

So, who is wanting to admit they were wrong first and I was right, by the way?

WASHINGTON — Russia’s war in Ukraine has left more than 100,000 of Moscow’s troops dead or wounded, and Ukraine has probably suffered a similar number of casualties, the United States’ most senior general said this week.​

​

“You’re looking at well over 100,000 Russian soldiers killed and wounded,” Gen. Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said in remarks at the Economic Club of New York on Wednesday. “Same thing probably on the Ukrainian side.”​

TBF, Ukraine is likely to be capable of enduring losses similar to France in WWI or Germany/the Soviet Union in WWII (on a percentage basis) before it will ever actually capitulate. It's likely to also be capable of going full-on totalitarian to do this if necessary since its own national survival is on the line.

 

[History Learner]

What Milley says in Economic Club of New York is not official data, so guess you want to admit yet again that you are a clown.

Except Milley is the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the highest military position in the United States and chief military adviser to the President, with access to all intelligence data the U.S. collects. I know that's a lot of big words for your little brain to handle, I'm sorry, so allow me to dumb it down for you as: cope harder.

So? My point stands, learn to fucking read, because that is pretty good serial production. Just that the politicians would have wanted even bigger serial production doesn't mean that they are being made in prototype or small scale batches.
"Less than 100% of intended production target is not serial production" is a fucking joke of a dodge out of your clearly lack of understanding of basic terms.

Your point would still stand if everyone else unfortunate enough to hear your stupidity would replace their brains with rocks, but that would be an insult to rocks. In reality, if you set production targets, establish them as the baseline scenario for defining your goal as mass/serial production, and then fail to meet them, that is by definition not achieving mass production since you, again, established a baseline to judge your performance off of and defined it as such.

Again, big words for you to try to follow. Maybe you'll get it sorted out before Germany and Russia eliminate your country from the map again for, what, the fifth time now?

Hey funny guy, did you know that USA still makes other types alongside F-35 too?

Indeed I do dear, but maybe if you were intelligent enough to remember you were the one who specifically asked to compare Russian production solely to the F-35? Would you like me to quote you or are you too simple to even read what you wrote less than an hour ago?

Superior foo; you mean, as in the saying that "nature always invents a greater fool"?

Given you misspelled fool, I'd say we're reaching the point you've become the defining caricature of that, yes. I'm glad to know you're not representative of the rest of the Polish nation, given my interactions with other Polish Nationalists.

Caliber, really? Yes, i was as smart as you... when i was 12.
By your logic Soviets were stupid to use 115mm guns because they already had IS-2 with a 122mm gun, so muh number bigger, they are still better than Leopard 2 and M1A2 with their puny 120mm guns. Fuck off with that idiocy and learn about technology, tank ammunition and penetration values a bit.

I did, that's why I called BS on it and why you were too cowardly to actually demonstrate the difference rather than this bitch move of just saying it. You made the argument, now present it. You might just realize why the U.S. moved from the 105mm on the Abrams to the current 120mm and were looking at the 140mm by the time the Cold War ended.

Given how bad you are with basic math, I know this is definitely beyond your capacity, however.

ERA? M-55S has 90's Israeli ERA, certainly no worse than the Kontakt-1 of T-62MV.
You are a living avatar of the Dunning-Kruger.

So...exactly as I said? Thank you for admitting once again I am your better.

I won't even go into electronics because that would be throwing pearls before swine.

That is a funny way of saying you simply can't, of course, but cope harder dear. Your impotent anger brings me immeasurable joy to read, as you desperately with all your might try to match me and I just effortlessly defeat you. Try harder, sweetie.

 

[History Learner]

TBF, Ukraine is likely to be capable of enduring losses similar to France in WWI or Germany/the Soviet Union in WWII (on a percentage basis) before it will ever actually capitulate. It's likely to also be capable of going full-on totalitarian to do this if necessary since its own national survival is on the line.

Pre-War Ukraine was likely between 32 to 35 million people, not counting Crimea or the LDPR. Roughly 10 million either went to Russia or Europe since the war started, while another three million or so are in occupied territories. Basically, lets say ~20 million as the manpower base, but with the average age of 41 in Ukraine, you're looking at about two to three million as the manpower pool to draw on. Best guess I've seen this year is they mobilized to around 900,000 or so, and have been using the mobilization waves to sustain them at that level since, but also have to try to keep the civilian economy running too. This is the reason they recently went to mobilizing 60 year old men; their manpower pool is shallow, so they've already hit the "Old men" phase after using "young boys" at the start of the conflict.

 

[Zachowon]

The 120mm of the Abrams has better penetraring rounds then the 125mm of the newest Russian tanks.
Because now it is about ammunition and caliber. Bigger doesn't mean always better.

 

[History Learner]

The 120mm of the Abrams has better penetraring rounds then the 125mm of the newest Russian tanks.
Because now it is about ammunition and caliber. Bigger doesn't mean always better.

Agreed, but in the case of the 115mm on the T-62 vs the 105mm on the Slovenian T-55s, it's at worst about equal.

 

[WolfBear]

Pre-War Ukraine was likely between 32 to 35 million people, not counting Crimea or the LDPR. Roughly 10 million either went to Russia or Europe since the war started, while another three million or so are in occupied territories. Basically, lets say ~20 million as the manpower base, but with the average age of 41 in Ukraine, you're looking at about two to three million as the manpower pool to draw on. Best guess I've seen this year is they mobilized to around 900,000 or so, and have been using the mobilization waves to sustain them at that level since, but also have to try to keep the civilian economy running too. This is the reason they recently went to mobilizing 60 year old men; their manpower pool is shallow, so they've already hit the "Old men" phase after using "young boys" at the start of the conflict.

I think that the 32-35 million figure excludes the three million who are in occupied territories, since most of them were already in occupied territories prior to the start of this year's war.

 

[Zachowon]

Agreed, but in the case of the 115mm on the T-62 vs the 105mm on the Slovenian T-55s, it's at worst about equal.

The M55 can have superior rounds given to them by the US and UK and everyone who once operated the 105.
Which is damn near everyone in NATO that wasn't part of the WP

 

[History Learner]

I think that the 32-35 million figure excludes the three million who are in occupied territories, since most of them were already in occupied territories prior to the start of this year's war.

Hence why I said it excluded Crimea and LDPR at the start of the conflict. The other three million exist in the portions of Ukraine occupied and still held since the start of the war, which includes urban areas like Melitopol and Severodonetsk.

The M55 can have superior rounds given to them by the US and UK and everyone who once operated the 105.
Which is damn near everyone in NATO that wasn't part of the WP

So can the Russians use upgraded rounds for the T-62s.

 

[Marduk]

Except Milley is the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the highest military position in the United States and chief military adviser to the President, with access to all intelligence data the U.S. collects. I know that's a lot of big words for your little brain to handle, I'm sorry, so allow me to dumb it down for you as: cope harder.

So? Doesn't mean he has it memorized. Doesn't mean he is even legally allowed to give the real data at some public civilian meeting if he has it memorized. The "probably" he adds naturally doesn't inspire confidence in that number.

Your point would still stand if everyone else unfortunate enough to hear your stupidity would replace their brains with rocks, but that would be an insult to rocks. In reality, if you set production targets, establish them as the baseline scenario for defining your goal as mass/serial production, and then fail to meet them, that is by definition not achieving mass production since you, again, established a baseline to judge your performance off of and defined it as such.

Dude, no one cares about your shitty fanfiction for what basic industrial terms mean.

Serial production

ceopedia.org

Serial production

Definition, Synonyms, Translations of Serial production by The Free Dictionary

www.thefreedictionary.com

The very fact that you feel a need to write such personal definitions makes you a walking joke.

Again, big words for you to try to follow. Maybe you'll get it sorted out before Germany and Russia eliminate your country from the map again for, what, the fifth time now?

Hope you smarten up before US asylums get reopened to contain the stupid and crazy, because you may end up in one.

Given you misspelled fool, I'd say we're reaching the point you've become the defining caricature of that, yes. I'm glad to know you're not representative of the rest of the Polish nation, given my interactions with other Polish Nationalists.

I and all Americans are glad that you are a closer representative to baboons than to Americans.

I did, that's why I called BS on it and why you were too cowardly to actually demonstrate the difference rather than this bitch move of just saying it. You made the argument, now present it. You might just realize why the U.S. moved from the 105mm on the Abrams to the current 120mm and were looking at the 140mm by the time the Cold War ended.

It's public data. If you are quarter as smart as you seem to think you are, you can find it.
I won't do that work for you. It will be funnier that way. We're not talking about late Cold War tanks, we are comparing T-62 to M-55S.

So...exactly as I said? Thank you for admitting once again I am your better.

Yes, you are a far better representation of Dunning-Kruger than me.

That is a funny way of saying you simply can't, of course, but cope harder dear. Your impotent anger brings me immeasurable joy to read, as you desperately with all your might try to match me and I just effortlessly defeat you. Try harder, sweetie.

Again, i have to remind your sclerotic ass that you are not worthy of my rage. Just deep contempt for your character and mental capabilities.

 

[History Learner]

So? Doesn't mean he has it memorized. Doesn't mean he is even legally allowed to give the real data at some public civilian meeting if he has it memorized. The "probably" he adds naturally doesn't inspire confidence in that number.

Or we can say he definitely has it memorized, given he cited the number as part of the rationale for starting peace talks and the use of the "probably" is entirely because he can't given the real data directly, as you said? Nice try with this effort at an unfalsifiable argument, Marduk, but you simply just can't match me.

Dude, no one cares about your shitty fanfiction for what basic industrial terms mean.

Serial production

ceopedia.org

Serial production

Definition, Synonyms, Translations of Serial production by The Free Dictionary

www.thefreedictionary.com

The very fact that you feel a need to write such personal definitions makes you a walking joke.

If you're going to call someone else a walking joke, at least have the bare minimum in intelligence to actually not cite the same definition twice, when the entire crux of your argument was that serial production was not the same as mass production. I know you're dumb as fuck, but c'mon.

Hope you smarten up before US asylums get reopened to contain the stupid and crazy, because you may end up in one.

Hopefully not before I see T-90s in Warsaw

Again, i have to remind your sclerotic ass that you are not worthy of my rage. Just deep contempt for your character and mental capabilities.

This is such a funny cope because you started this interaction and then you always pull the "you're not worth my time" play until the next time you suddenly "forget" I'm not worth your time, and engage me again. It's honestly hilarious, given the last several times we interacted you said the same thing and yet, here we are again with me leaving you impotent with your rage. Cope and Seethe, dear, because I utterly enjoy seeing it.

 

[Megadeath]

"One piece of evidence says that now Ukraine are over 100,000 casualties. Therefore due to retroactive magic, I was right to claim they were at 120,000 casualties months ago."