Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

TheRomanSlayer

Unipolarity is for Subhuman Trogdolytes
True a long while since I read it but believe that Charles V deliberately split his empire because he decided that it was too large for a single ruler to manage so lacking OTL Philip he might find another member of the family to take over the Spanish side of the firm.

Depending on the character, if he wasn't the idiot that Philip was possibly the revolt in the Netherlands is avoided? Also if you do that or possibly the Netherlands ends up in the German half of the empire Spain doesn't exhaust itself fighting to crush opposition there?
I would have assumed that the Austrian branch of the Hapsburgs would have kept the Netherlands, leaving Spain with the Italian holdings. Which would have made more sense instead of the Burgundian inheritance that triggered the Dutch Revolt over religion.
 

Buba

A total creep
As to Charles V splitting the Habsburg lands in 1558 - this simply perpetuated what he had done in 1521. Two years after ascending to the Iron Immortal Imperial Throne he abdicated in "Austria" on Ferdinand's behalf. Czechia and Hungary were added to Habsburg holdings by Ferdinand - through his wife, Mary Jagiellon daughter of Władysław of Czechia-Hungary.

In a "no Phillip" scenario things CAN go identically to OTL: the tired, worn out Charles passes on emperorship (and confirms Austria) to Ferdinand, and retires while passing on the OTL Spanish part to "his favourite nephew" Maximilian.
After all, there is logic in the two-way division - the Spanish branch fights France while the Austrian branch fights the Turks. Hence the oddball assignement of the Burgundian Inheritance to Spain.

Situation 150 years earlier more or less the same:
800px-Habsburg_dominions_1700.png



I do agree that a three way split between Maximilian, Ferdinand jr. and Charles (son of Ferdinand) is more exciting to us :)

I suggest:
Max - Spain and Mediterannean holdings (Naples, Sardinia, Sicily, etc.)
Ferdinand jr. - the central European block plus Milan, emperorship
Charles - Netherlands and all Habsburg holdings in western Germany, i.e. Further Austria, County of Burgundy, etc.

But another arrangment is of course possible, with e.g. Charles getting Spain.

With three "thrones" to pass on, I'd expect that in "Habsburgs - the Next Generation" - fewer of Ferdinand's grandsons get channeled into ecclesiastic postings and thus may leave legitimate sons. Also, here Ferdinand might be forced into a dynastic marriage earlier, this alone possibly changing events.

As to impact on TL - a lot depends on "which brother gets what" - Max as Overlord of Netherlands is probably less likely to cause a Protestant revolt than Charles or Ferdinand jr.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
I mean ... China is hugely populated, so they're far more capable of absorbing losses that'd cripple smaller nations.

No doubt he'd be reviled as Red Hitler in the West, but if the Khmer Rouge "only" managed to kill a quarter of their people in four years, then I doubt a Chinese Pol Pot ruling the most populated country on Earth could wipe out half of his own people before going down. At least, assuming he's not crazy enough to break out the nukes, which Pol Pot never had access to ... :oops:


Well,according to what i read,Polpot killed 33-50% of population,including all minorities.
And do not offend comrade Hitler,he genocided us,but was good for his own people.Germans have reason to praise him.
When commies killed mostly their own.

But,Mao ruled long enough to kill 50% of population,and then nuke soviets and Korea.Maybe Japan,too.

The very moment Mao dies, a fairly large asteroid impact hits China, killing >90% of the population either by the immediate impact, or within the following 48 hours. The remaining <10% gets a more cruel, drawn-out death.

The rest of the world is going to be in ruins, too, obviously. Also, the Western and Soviet militaries mistake the impact for the initiation of nuclear war by the other side, and launch every nuke they have at each other. This means the post-impact hellscape is also irradiated to a massive degree, and the impact winter is compounded by a nuclear winter setting in. China is hit by both sides (the USA targeted them anyway, the Soviets mistakenly believe that the Mao has initiated some kind of death man's switch and has turned on the Soviets).

In the aftermath, all basic amenities are gone, most water sources are contaminated, and most food is irradiated. Starvation sets in across the globe, even though most of humanity is already dead. Plagues of all sorts afflict the survivors. Only in very few places does something vaguely resembling civilisation prevail. All but those who are optimistic to the point of delusion soon understand that with decades (at least!) of impact winter ahead, there will be no new harvests for at least twenty years. What's left of civilisation is going to die, and mankind -- ultimately to be numbered in in the hundred thousands across the globe, before we get past the nadir -- will be cast back to the existence of the hunter-gatherer.... in those places where life is still possible.

China is not one of those place. For the next few centuries, nobody will be able to live there. It is the desert of choking ash and invisible death.


Good,but Mao had notching to do with asteroid.What about Mao making B weapons from spanish flu,and accidentally releasing it?
If it have better mortality,we could have 20-30% of deaths in entire world.
Considering,that soviets,after getting hit by chineese flu probably nuke them before going down,it would be worst for China.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
"Holy mass-death by giant impact, Batman!" :p :p :p

No, but seriously, methinks you took my POD a bit too literally.
Hey, you asked-- and I answered. ;)


The ONLY way the South doesn't try to buck the North and push slavery is if a charismatic enough Southern leader pushed for the dissolution of slavery in such a way as to keep the Souther aristocracy wealthy.
Sounds ASB to me, if I'm being honest.

But in case it's not, I sense a counterfactual for either the General AH Thread or an entirely new thread all its own starting to brew here ... :unsure:
Anwering this here, because it really is an interesting point. Generally speaking, getting rid of slavery was possible with an early POD, and it was indeed a prominent Southern leader who tried to make it happen: Jefferson himself.

His attempts to dramatically curtail slavery by prohibiting its expansion beyond the states where it already existed would have doomed the institution. Since it would be dying out in the Northernmost states where it was initially legal, there would in actual fact be just six slave states. That means that theoretically, the free states would have the two-thirds majority to call for a constitutional convention as early as the mid-1810s. In practice, it would no doubt be longer, but an amendment banning slavery (or more probably: securing that all children born thenceforth would be free by deafult) would now be an inevitability.

Everybody would grasp this long before it happened, so US slavocrats would soon be selling slaves off to the Caribbean while they still could. That would only hasten the process. Because the number of slaves would thus be lower, a negotiated "buy-out" settlement where the government pays for slaves to be manumitted becomes far more realistic.

There's never a chance for a civil war. At most, you get something like the nullification crisis. Slavery gets terminated by 1840 or so. (With the way the wind's blowing, you also don't see Nat Turner's rebellion, which hardened anti-manumission sentiment in OTL.)

The result is that there's far less of a national trauma over slavery, both because it's resolved earlier and with less fuss, and also because there's way fewer (descendants of) slaves in the USA. With earlier and more peaceful abolition, their gradual absorbtion into the populace is somewhat easier, so there will probably be less of a distinct "black" identity, and more/earlier race mixing. (Especially among the lower classes of society.)

Since there's less conflict over the right of states to keep their "peculiar institution", the South won't be going on about states' rights that much anyway, although the tendency will still exist (it derives from Jeffersonian ideals, and was in OTL merely co-opted and warped by the slavocrats). And on the other hand, without the conflict to consolidate federal power, the central government won't be able to amass so much overwhelming influence, either. (Or it'll at least take longer and be far more gradual.)

The question of "are states allowed to secede" won't be settled (with the sword), so it'll remain an open question. Without OTL's politicised traumas about the matter, the (quite valid!) Constitutional reading that it is allowed will continue to exist, albeit as an academic matter. (To elaborate: the tenth amemendment stipulates that any authority not granted to the central government by the constitution is reserved to the states or the people... and the constitution doesn't regulate secession... hence it's a matter for the states to legislate.)

That final point means that there may eventually be a point where a state wants to secede, but it'll be much later in history, and it'll be more like Quebec wanting to secede. Or Scotland. They may well get a referendum, and they'll probably vote to stay in after all. ;)
 

History Learner

Well-known member
Anwering this here, because it really is an interesting point. Generally speaking, getting rid of slavery was possible with an early POD, and it was indeed a prominent Southern leader who tried to make it happen: Jefferson himself.

Given the period between 1780 and 1810 saw as many African slaves brought into the United States as the previous 160 years, I don't think this position can be justified as factual. Slavery had already become entrenched in the Southern economy by the time Jefferson was in a position to do anything about it and no methods short of war was going to change this given the onset of the Cotton boom. Even before King Cotton, tobacco was extremely profitable in Virginia and Maryland, while cultivation had begun to spread into new regions such as South Carolina, Georgia, Kentucky, and Tennessee. Rice, Sugar and Grains were likewise important:

jKFbJYSN_o.png


His attempts to dramatically curtail slavery by prohibiting its expansion beyond the states where it already existed would have doomed the institution. Since it would be dying out in the Northernmost states where it was initially legal, there would in actual fact be just six slave states. That means that theoretically, the free states would have the two-thirds majority to call for a constitutional convention as early as the mid-1810s. In practice, it would no doubt be longer, but an amendment banning slavery (or more probably: securing that all children born thenceforth would be free by deafult) would now be an inevitability.

I don't see how or why it would, given it had already demonstrated its profitability by the time Jefferson could work to affect it in the 1780s. The test case for what you seem to be suggesting is the vote in 1784 attempting to do in all the territories that which was done in the Northwest Ordinance of 1787. Despite the latter, by the early 1800s Slavery had proliferated in these territories to such an extent William Henry Harrison contemplated formalizing it by making Illinois and Indiana Slave territories in 1805. Illinois would later reach such a point that a vote would be held on this effect in 1824 that very nearly was won by the Pro-Slavery faction and was only defeated because of the recent influx of Yankees in the north of the new State.

Everybody would grasp this long before it happened, so US slavocrats would soon be selling slaves off to the Caribbean while they still could. That would only hasten the process. Because the number of slaves would thus be lower, a negotiated "buy-out" settlement where the government pays for slaves to be manumitted becomes far more realistic.

I do not see anyway the new United States could afford to do compensated manumission, given the dramatic explosion in the profitability and value in chattel holdings in this era. Southerners would also have no real to buy in, given the established profitability and for the same considerations as to what they viewed as the "proper social order", which also plagued Jefferson historically.

For a case study in this, see how Slavery survived until the Civil War in Delaware.

There's never a chance for a civil war. At most, you get something like the nullification crisis. Slavery gets terminated by 1840 or so. (With the way the wind's blowing, you also don't see Nat Turner's rebellion, which hardened anti-manumission sentiment in OTL.)

I agree, simply because the disunion would be peaceful. Georgia and South Carolina were threatening to walk historically during the Convention over Slavery related issues and Virginia during the Nullification Crisis made it clear they would not tolerate arms being raised against the former despite their disagreements with South Carolina's positions. That they followed through with this position in 1861 historically thus suggests this viewpoint wasn't a bluff and, in the end, it was either accept Slavery or Disunion.
 
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TheRomanSlayer

Unipolarity is for Subhuman Trogdolytes
Plausibility Check: A Realistic 'Northern Secession' Scenario

We've seen TLs where they deal with Southern Victory scenarios (TL-191 being the most well known, to my knowledge), but I'm not sure where to find good Northern Secession scenario TLs. Would a possible Northern Secession scenario be more ideologically based? Aside from a pro-slavery US president being elected other than Lincoln, would an earlier version of the Paris Commune be also plausible in the northern part of the US as well?
 

History Learner

Well-known member
Plausibility Check: A Realistic 'Northern Secession' Scenario

We've seen TLs where they deal with Southern Victory scenarios (TL-191 being the most well known, to my knowledge), but I'm not sure where to find good Northern Secession scenario TLs. Would a possible Northern Secession scenario be more ideologically based? Aside from a pro-slavery US president being elected other than Lincoln, would an earlier version of the Paris Commune be also plausible in the northern part of the US as well?

Northern Nullification Challenged and Decades of Darkness are basically this.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
‘FDR Reviled Instead Of Revered’.
One of the early coup plans against Hitler goes through successfully. European crisis averted, Britain can turn its full attention to making sure that Japan (now also short on allies) stays in its lane. Germany is not humbled, and the new regime is still fairly right-wing militarist, but in a more general "fuck you, commies!" sort of way. So Stalin is still hesitant about just starting an invasion of Europe.

This leaves FDR without any prospects for a war. His economic designs are actually shit, and most other nations now pull out of the Depression faster than the USA does. FDR makes the mistake of doubling down on his New Deal, including some FDR-typical forms of freedom-curtailing and citizen-harming. It doesn't go over very well at all, and come 1940, the Democrats lose in a landslide to the right-wingest of Republican challengers. Like, Bob Taft or something.

Who promptly dismantles the entire new deal, brings the government and the economy back to the Coolidge years, and actually books a massive economic miracle in doing so. (Comparable to the Wirtschaftswunder in OTL post-war Germany, under Ludwig Erhard.)

Taft's small-government policies become seen as America's salvation, even as FDR's big-government intervention is decried as having been a doomed plan that almost relegated America to the status of a failed economy. As tensions rise between the West and the USSR, the USA's commitment to small government and the truly free market becomes a central point of national identity and pride. Not just via lip service (as in OTL), but in actual fact! Many an alternate history is written that is based on the premise of FDR turning the USA communist, and this perception becomes broadly accepted as accurate. (Although it's not actually true.)

Due to this, FDR consistently ranks as one of the "bad presidents" that most people consider to have been failures.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
One of the early coup plans against Hitler goes through successfully. European crisis averted, Britain can turn its full attention to making sure that Japan (now also short on allies) stays in its lane. Germany is not humbled, and the new regime is still fairly right-wing militarist, but in a more general "fuck you, commies!" sort of way. So Stalin is still hesitant about just starting an invasion of Europe.

This leaves FDR without any prospects for a war. His economic designs are actually shit, and most other nations now pull out of the Depression faster than the USA does. FDR makes the mistake of doubling down on his New Deal, including some FDR-typical forms of freedom-curtailing and citizen-harming. It doesn't go over very well at all, and come 1940, the Democrats lose in a landslide to the right-wingest of Republican challengers. Like, Bob Taft or something.

Who promptly dismantles the entire new deal, brings the government and the economy back to the Coolidge years, and actually books a massive economic miracle in doing so. (Comparable to the Wirtschaftswunder in OTL post-war Germany, under Ludwig Erhard.)

Taft's small-government policies become seen as America's salvation, even as FDR's big-government intervention is decried as having been a doomed plan that almost relegated America to the status of a failed economy. As tensions rise between the West and the USSR, the USA's commitment to small government and the truly free market becomes a central point of national identity and pride. Not just via lip service (as in OTL), but in actual fact! Many an alternate history is written that is based on the premise of FDR turning the USA communist, and this perception becomes broadly accepted as accurate. (Although it's not actually true.)

Due to this, FDR consistently ranks as one of the "bad presidents" that most people consider to have been failures.

Early coup,or french attacking in 1936 or 1938.Or even in 1939.
Or,envoy from Agharta was real and get Hitler.
 

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
One of the early coup plans against Hitler goes through successfully.
While the following bit about the New Deal policy visibly failing is certainly a decent way to do so, I think it'd be more entertaining to have a Thule Society coup just as the election advertisements start rolling. Because then you have the secular authoritarian ultranationalist socialists fighting the neopagan nutjobs openly, using every lever of the overgrown state they can against eachother.

The Republicans proceed to add "here's why Franklin's policies are a shit" with the fresh examples of the Nazi system's counterparts being useful to quite the horrid hostile takeover, while the European theater being near-enough a total backfire guts FDR's own motive for a third term right alongside neutering the inflection points of public support. Imperial Japan still gives a Casus Belli of some sort in 1941, but by then FDR is out and all the wartime credit goes to Wendel Willkie.

This results in all of FDR's policies being thoroughly in the shadow of his contemporary authoritarians, and with the greatly-reduced demands of the European theater the need to give Stalin some slack is also much reduced.

Edit: An important note about the timing is that this stops the London Blitz altogether, and cuts the Battle of Britain so short as to be practically a footnote. The British Empire has a real seat at the table of the ensuing trade deals instead of being just another European power begging for reconstruction aid.
 
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Buba

A total creep
Not an alternative, but I can't find a thread to put my question in.

In early 1454 the Polish King and Lithuanian Grand Duke, Kazimierz/Kazimiras, married Elizabeth von Habsburg, daugther of Albrecht Habsburg and Mary Luxemburg (daughter of Sigismund). So, negotiations must have taken place in 1453.
What I am interested in is WHO gave away Elizabeth? Who was her guardian? Who decided the match?
In that very same year, 1453, Elizabeth's brother, Władysław Posthumous, age 13, was more or less forcibly extracted from guardianship exerted by his paternal uncle Frederick. Was Elizabeth (age 16-17) still in her uncle's loving care/clutches? Or was she controlled by the "kidnappers", the shakers and movers of Czechia and Hungary - Ulrik of Celje? Jirzi of Podberad? Hunyadi Janos? Somebody else? Who married her off to Poland-Lithuania and why? What were the aims behind this marital match?
 
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Sergeant Foley

Well-known member
No an alternative, but I can't find a thread to put my question in.
In early 1454 the Polish King and Lithuanian Grand Duke, Kazimierz/Kazimiras, married Elizabeth von Habsburg, daugther of Albrecht Habsburg and Mary Luxemburg (daughter of Sigismund). So, negotiations must have taken place in 1453.
What I am interested in is WHO gave away Elizabeth? Who was her guardian? Who decided the match?
In that very same year, 1453, Elizabeth's brother, Władysław Posthumous, age 13, was more or less forcibly extracted from guardianship by his paternal uncle Frederick. Was Elizabeth (age 16-17) still in her uncle's loving care/clutches? Or was she controlled by Jirzi of Podberad? Ulrik of Celje? Hunyadi Janos? Somebody else? Who married her off to Poland-Lithuania and why? What were the aims behind this marital match?
Sounds intriguing 😎
 

ATP

Well-known member
While the following bit about the New Deal policy visibly failing is certainly a decent way to do so, I think it'd be more entertaining to have a Thule Society coup just as the election advertisements start rolling. Because then you have the secular authoritarian ultranationalist socialists fighting the neopagan nutjobs openly, using every lever of the overgrown state they can against eachother.

The Republicans proceed to add "here's why Franklin's policies are a shit" with the fresh examples of the Nazi system's counterparts being useful to quite the horrid hostile takeover, while the European theater being near-enough a total backfire guts FDR's own motive for a third term right alongside neutering the inflection points of public support. Imperial Japan still gives a Casus Belli of some sort in 1941, but by then FDR is out and all the wartime credit goes to Wendel Willkie.

This results in all of FDR's policies being thoroughly in the shadow of his contemporary authoritarians, and with the greatly-reduced demands of the European theater the need to give Stalin some slack is also much reduced.

Edit: An important note about the timing is that this stops the London Blitz altogether, and cuts the Battle of Britain so short as to be practically a footnote. The British Empire has a real seat at the table of the ensuing trade deals instead of being just another European power begging for reconstruction aid.

Interesting.I would add neopogans nutjobs with real powers to made things more interesting - for example,if they really could welcome demons from Agharta.
But,somehow stopped by german witchhunters and papal Inquisition!
 

Buba

A total creep
Was it possible for Poland to join the Eu earlier than it did?
If the country met Copenhagen criteria (rushed homogenisation legislation, liberalisation of economy etc.) by late '90s, could it join on 1.I.2000?
 

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