Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

Buba

A total creep
Did you take a look at my link above here?
Engels there is offputting ...
Also, what if there was no Enigma breaking in World War II?
A few more Allied dead, not much change otherwise.
What would it have taken for France to hold back Germany's invasion of it, and what would WWII have looked had France not fallen?
I remember enjoying a fic on that on AH-com, The Blunted Sickle.

A very simple idea - have it start to rain heavily on the night of May 9th and continue for a week. No sicklecut, no Fall of France :)
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Engels there is offputting ...

So what? Even a broken clock is right twice a day! ;) It's not a Marxist site, though; else, it wouldn't have articles such as this one:

 

WolfBear

Well-known member
In the wiki on king Umberto it says:
In 1897, the prime minister, Antonio Starabba, Marchese di Rudinì tried to sell Eritrea to Belgium on the grounds that Eritrea was too expensive to hold onto, but was overruled by the king who insisted that Eritrea must stay Italian.

Anybody knows more about this? Starting with the buyer - Belgium or Leopold?

This book contains some additional information on this topic:


I think that you can find this book for free in its entirety on LibGen.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
What would it have taken for France to hold back Germany's invasion of it, and what would WWII have looked had France not fallen?
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Hold back, as in prevent defeat in six weeks or hold back as in preventing the fall entirely? If the latter, you'd need to delay the war or have the Anglo-French-Soviet entente come about; I'm personally of the view, given the correlation of forces and economics, there was no way the Entente could prevent long term German victory by May of 1940. Make it costlier and longer? Sure, but anything else is just not possible I think.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Hold back, as in prevent defeat in six weeks or hold back as in preventing the fall entirely? If the latter, you'd need to delay the war or have the Anglo-French-Soviet entente come about; I'm personally of the view, given the correlation of forces and economics, there was no way the Entente could prevent long term German victory by May of 1940. Make it costlier and longer? Sure, but anything else is just not possible I think.

So, you believe that Tooze's Wages of Destruction overstated its case about the weakness of the Nazi economy?
 

History Learner

Well-known member
So, you believe that Tooze's Wages of Destruction overstated its case about the weakness of the Nazi economy?

Yes, and Tooze has now publicly admitted his case needs a revision, at least this aspect. As he notes, he helped bring this paper forward:
This article refutes a fundamental assumption behind the Western powers’ ‘long-war strategy’ in 1939, and casts doubt on the conventional wisdom regarding the alleged unpreparedness of Nazi Germany for a longer war. It does so by re-examining Germany’s war-preparedness through the lens of those raw materials that were of vital importance for the production of all armaments: non-ferrous metals. Contemporaries believed that these metals were the Achilles heel of the Nazi war economy because Germany had to cover its consumption predominantly with imports from overseas, which meant that it was extremely vulnerable to a sea blockade. But this article challenges these assumptions and shows that the Nazi war-planners were prepared for a longer war because of the lessons learned from the Great War, which they had carefully and covertly studied. The statistics compiled in this article demonstrate that it was the preparations based on these lessons rather than contingencies and non-predictable events, such as the access to occupied Europe due to unexpected victories, that were primarily responsible for the fact that Germany did not run out of metals during the Second World War. Germany lost the war not because of a lack of economic preparation, at least not in the field of metals, but because of the strategic decision to start a war which was bound to draw in an ever more superior coalition of enemies the longer it lasted.​
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Yes, and Tooze has now publicly admitted his case needs a revision, at least this aspect. As he notes, he helped bring this paper forward:
This article refutes a fundamental assumption behind the Western powers’ ‘long-war strategy’ in 1939, and casts doubt on the conventional wisdom regarding the alleged unpreparedness of Nazi Germany for a longer war. It does so by re-examining Germany’s war-preparedness through the lens of those raw materials that were of vital importance for the production of all armaments: non-ferrous metals. Contemporaries believed that these metals were the Achilles heel of the Nazi war economy because Germany had to cover its consumption predominantly with imports from overseas, which meant that it was extremely vulnerable to a sea blockade. But this article challenges these assumptions and shows that the Nazi war-planners were prepared for a longer war because of the lessons learned from the Great War, which they had carefully and covertly studied. The statistics compiled in this article demonstrate that it was the preparations based on these lessons rather than contingencies and non-predictable events, such as the access to occupied Europe due to unexpected victories, that were primarily responsible for the fact that Germany did not run out of metals during the Second World War. Germany lost the war not because of a lack of economic preparation, at least not in the field of metals, but because of the strategic decision to start a war which was bound to draw in an ever more superior coalition of enemies the longer it lasted.​

That makes sense.

BTW, you might be interested in my book reading recommendations list here:

I also previously read some books whose contents I briefly discussed in another forum. Please allow me to repost the relevant material here:

I don't really know to what extent these free online books are actually going to benefit anyone here, but I have previously taken a look at all of them and enjoyed them; so, here goes:

Arnold J. Toynbee's Nationality and the War (Dent 1915):


This book is about the various ethnic/nationality problems that are going on in Europe and various other parts of the world (the Middle East, et cetera) at that point in time--exacerbated by World War I, which was ongoing at that point in time--and also discusses various solutions to these ethnic/nationality problems, such as autonomy and border redrawing--on which this book provides a lot of extensive details and information. This book also tries to make political predictions and prognostications for the future.

Charles Ernest Fayle's The Great Settlement (1915):


This book discusses what the post-World War I settlement should look like. Like the previous book (above), it discusses the various ethnic issues and problems in Europe and tries to figure out what an ideal long-term lasting solution to these problems should be once World War I will be over--whenever that might be.

Charles Sarolea's Letters on Polish Affairs (1922):


This book discusses various issues that the newly independent Poland is facing after the end of World War I, from economics to its territorial disputes with its neighbors to appeasing its minority populations. Sarolea is a Belgian who lived in Scotland, so he's an external observer to all of this who doesn't actually appear to have a direct personal stake in this.

Isaiah Bowman's The New World: Problems in Political Geography (1921):


This book takes a geographical look at the post-World War I peace settlement and also at other parts of the world and tries teaching its readers a lot of information about various parts of the world. This book could be viewed as being a mini-encyclopedia of the world, I suppose.

Isaiah Bowman's Supplement to The New World: Problems in Political Geography (1924):


A supplement to the previous book, but this time focusing on the United States as well as on the Americas in general.

Charles Homer Haskins's and Robert Howard Lord's Some Problems of the Peace Conference (1922):


This book discusses various problems that the Paris Peace Conference had to deal with as well as how exactly it solved these problems.

John Wheeler Bennett's Brest-Litovsk: The Forgotten Peace: March 1918 (1938):


This book was written shortly before the start of World War II and discusses the run-up to the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia, the Bolshevik Revolution itself, the negotiations leading up to the Brest-Litovsk Treaty, the aftermath of this treaty, the Bolsheviks' first year of power in Russia, and the Central Powers' subsequent defeat in World War I. It really is quite interesting.

Alfred Cobban's National Self-Determination (1947):


An excellent book about the issue of national self-determination throughout the entire world that is written with extremely great detail and clarity and is full of information about this topic in a global scope. This book was written in the aftermath of World War II, when both World War I and World War II as well as the effects and aftermath of both of these wars (which were highly relevant to national self-determination) were still fresh in everyone's minds.

Bernard Newman's Danger Spots of Europe (1939):


A book about Europe's "danger spots" on the eve of World War II--or, in other words, about the European territories that are most likely to cause/generate new wars over them. Extremely interesting and very informative!

Stephen Roberts's The House that Hitler Built (1938):


A book about Nazi Germany from before the start of World War II that discusses what Adolf Hitler has accomplished so far as well as speculates on what Hitler's future plans are likely to be--especially in regards to his foreign policy. Quite interesting and insightful!

Some more free online books that I enjoyed taking a look at:

Robert Lansing's The Peace Negotiations: A Personal Narrative (1921):


This book is an autobiography by United States Secretary of State Robert Lansing (served 1915 to 1920), with a special focus on the 1919 Paris Peace Conference and its negotiations and results. It really is quite interesting since it allows us to take a look at this from the perspective of one of the big players in this--even if he personally didn't actually attend this conference.

Count Ottokar Czernin's In the World War (1920):


This book is an autobiography by Austro-Hungarian Foreign Minister Count Ottokar Czernin (served 1916 to 1918), with a special focus on World War I and its aftermath and specifically his and Austria-Hungary's role in all of this. It's an excellent book to read about World War I from the perspective of a very senior Austro-Hungarian government official.

Friederich Naumann's Mitteleuropa (Central Europe), in English (1915):


This book discusses Central Europe, the ties that bind it together, and what the future of Central Europe might look like after the end of World War I. This article contains more information about this book as well as about the Mitteleuropa concept in general:


Ray Stannard Baker's Woodrow Wilson and World Settlement Volumes 1-3 (1922):




This three-volume book series was written by Ray Stannard Baker, an American journalist, historian, biographer, and author and also a close friend and confidant of US President Woodrow Wilson. In this three-volume book series, Baker discusses President Wilson's role in shaping the post-World War I peace settlement at the 1919 Paris Peace Conference. Quite an excellent, extremely detailed, and very informative read! :)

Sir Robert Donald's The Polish Corridor and the Consequences (in or before 1933; not sure about the exact year):


This book discusses the post-World War I situation in Danzig and the various territories that were given from Germany to Poland after the end of World War I, including the Polish Corridor, Posen Province, and eastern Upper Silesia. It's written by a British observer who tries to be relatively imperial (even though he nevertheless appears to have a bit of a German bias) and is quite interesting to read.

Andre Tardieu's The Truth About the Treaty (1921):


This book is written by French diplomat Andre Tardieu and discusses his role in the 1919 Paris Peace Conference and the post-World War I settlement in the West that this peace conference resulted in. While Tardieu obviously has a bit of a French bias (highly unsurprising for a Frenchman!), this book is nevertheless quite interesting and shows the 1919 Paris Peace Conference from a French perspective.

Ian F. D. Morrow's The Peace Settlement in the German-Polish Borderlands (1936):


This book is written by a relatively impartial Brit and, as per its title, discusses the post-World War I settlement and situation in the German-Polish borderlands in the 1920s and 1930s. It really is quite interesting, detailed, and insightful.

Adam Tooze's The Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy (2006):


This book is written by British historian Adam Tooze and provides an extremely detailed and insightful look at the economy and economics of Nazi Germany and Nazi-controlled Europe in general. Basically, this book looks at World War II from a largely economic perspective and does an excellent job at doing this. At around 800 pages, this award-winning book is highly recommended!

Corliss Lamont's The Peoples of the Soviet Union (1944):


This book discusses the various peoples (as in, ethnic groups) of the Soviet Union in great detail and is thus an enjoyment to read for anyone who wants to learn more about this topic. This book is easy, fun, and interesting to read.

Charles Lowe's Alexander III of Russia (1895):


This book is a very interesting biography of Russian Tsar Alexander III written shortly after his death by an English-speaker Westerner, possibly either a Brit or an American. Basically, this book discusses the life of Alexander III in its entirety and the various decisions that he has made throughout his life as well as the consequences of these decisions.

Also, this isn't a book but could nevertheless be of value--specifically these publications from the Strategic Studies Institute:


They have some good publications in there, but you might have to actually find them. Here is an example of a good publication by them:


This specific publication talks about how the Germans were great at tactics in the World Wars but bad at strategy--thus ultimately being capable of winning a lot of battles in both World Wars but ultimately losing both of these wars.

Specifically, I think that the 1939 Bernard Newman book might be relevant here. If I remember correctly, near the end of this book, he speculates that the current war (World War II) might not be anywhere near as bloody as the last war (World War I) due to the strength and intensity of the British blockade. Of course, he did not foresee the Fall of France in 1940, but even if he did, I think that your own links here would have proven him wrong. Still, his analysis was interesting to read, albeit also rather short. The rest of his book is very long, though. Several hundred pages.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Galicia had been Hungarian - both as vassal and even a period as part of Magyarsag, in the 13th and 14th centuries.
Why not after 1867? IMO simple - Hungary was created more or less in its historical boundries - Galicia was an episode hence it was left out. I doubt anybody in Budapest wanted Galicia. Also - and as importantly - why make Hungary stronger?

Wasn't Galicia largely Polish in settlement at the time so its claim - coupled with the point raised by Buba about only limited Hungarian control and not for ~700 years - would probably seem quite weak to the Germans in control of it. Hungary had already taken land from Romania and Yugoslavia so that would probably seem to the Germans [I know we're talking about the Nazi leadership here so its somewhat ironic:D] rather greedy.

Here's another reason to give Hungary Galicia, BTW: Specifically as compensation if Transylvania will ever go to Romania, perhaps as a part of a deal for Romania to enter Austria-Hungary as its own separate federal unit:

 

ATP

Well-known member
A few did. There was a Polish businessman - name beginning with B but can't remember in full who predicted a long extremely destructive war of attrition - but most expected a short and relatively quick war 'over by Christmas' which would be minimally disruptive. [Mind you the vast majority of them all expected to be on the winning side.] Others expected a war would be over relatively quickly because European economic interests were so intermingled that no one could maintain a war for long.

Unfortunately too many, especially in the leaders both political and military were of the quick war mentality and unwilling to accept a peace negotiation. :(

Jan Bogumił Bloch,1836-1902.He predicted that modern war must end in bloodbath.Nobody listen.
Althought,i thing that England knew,and wanted long war which would bleed everybody except them.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Jan Bogumił Bloch,1836-1902.He predicted that modern war must end in bloodbath.Nobody listen.
Althought,i thing that England knew,and wanted long war which would bleed everybody except them.

Britain definitely didn't want a long war at all. Far too expensive and disruptive of trade.

Kitchener reportedly wanted to do what the US did, build up a large army and get it fully trained and equipped then bring it in when everybody else has exhausted themselves after a couple of years of war. However this was impractical given the requirement to aid allies in desperate need.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Britain definitely didn't want a long war at all. Far too expensive and disruptive of trade.

Kitchener reportedly wanted to do what the US did, build up a large army and get it fully trained and equipped then bring it in when everybody else has exhausted themselves after a couple of years of war. However this was impractical given the requirement to aid allies in desperate need.

All they need was real blockade - when in reality goods from entire world go to Germany through Holland,Denmark and Sweden.
Robert Boucard,member of french secret services,wrote book about that after WW1.
 

Bassoe

Well-known member
A cool idea originally from an Olaf Stapledon short story, although B_Munro later made a map of it. What if the Chinese empire of the middle ages broke up into competing nation-states while the Holy Roman Empire managed to actually unify Europe?
East is West by Olaf Stapledon said:
I LEFT MY LODGINGS IN WEST KIRBY IN THE MIDDLE OF the morning and walked along the Estuary shore, I arriving at my favourite bathing place when the tide was only a few yards from the foot of the clay cliffs. The sand, as usual on a fine Sunday, was crowded with parties, bathing and sun-bathing. I undressed and swam out till the coast was but a strip between sea and sky. At my farthest point I floated for a long while, the sun pouring through my closed eyelids. I began to feel giddy and slightly sick, so I hurried back to land.

During the rather lengthy swim I was surprised to see that the shore and the cliff-top, which I thought had been crowded, were in fact deserted. The one heap of clothes which I could detect, and which I therefore took to be my own, perplexed me by its colour. I was still more perplexed when I walked out of the water to it and found that apparently someone had removed my own flannels and had substituted a queer fancy dress of "Chinesy," pyjama-like trousers and jacket, both made of richly ornamented blue brocade. Even the towel was decorated with a Chinese or Japanese pattern; but in one corner it was marked with my own name. After a vain search for my proper clothes, I dried myself, and began experimenting with the fancy dress, shivering, and cursing the practical joker.

A bright silver coin, about the size of a florin, fell out of one of the pockets. Picking it up, I was surprised by its odd look. Closer inspection surprised me still more, for it bore on one side a grim but not unhandsome female profile, surrounded by the legend, "Godiva Dei Gra. Brit. et Gall. Reg." On the obverse was a seemingly archaic version of the royal arms, which included the French lilies but omitted the Irish harp. Round the edge I read "One Florin 1934." There were also some Japanese characters, which, to my amazement, I read. They signified, "Kingdom of Britain. Two Shillings." Other coins in the pockets proved to be of the same fantastic type. There was also a letter, in its torn envelope, inscribed in Japanese characters. I recognized the name at once as the Japanese transcription of my own. The address was that of a well-known shipping firm in Liverpool. Well-known? Collecting my wits, I realized that, familiar as it seemed, I really knew nothing about it.

By this time I was thoroughly alarmed about the state of my mind. How came it that I could read Japanese? Whence these clothes? What had become of the holiday crowd?

Since the letter was addressed to me, I read it. The writer accepted an invitation to visit me for a few days with his wife. After referring to various shipping matters, which came to me with a distressing blend of familiarity and novelty, he signed himself, if I remember rightly, "Azuki Kawamura."

Sick with cold and fright, I put on the clothes, and could not help noting that every movement executed itself with the ease of well-established habit, not with the clumsiness of one struggling with fancy dress.

I hurried along the shore toward West Kirby. With a fresh shock I discovered that the distant buildings looked all wrong. It was comforting to see that Hilbre Island at least was more or less as it should be, and that the contours of the Welsh hills across the Estuary left nothing to be desired. The black-headed gulls were indistinguishable from those of my normal experience. Half a dozen shell-duck, floating on the receding tide, were correctly attired.

Two figures approached me. What would they think of my fancy dress? But apparently it was not fancy dress; it was the orthodox costume of a gentleman. As the couple advanced, it revealed itself as a man and a girl, walking arm in arm. A few paces from me, they unlinked. He touched his cap, she curtsied. Indifferently, almost contemptuously, I acknowledged their salute. We passed.

I had been surprised to see that their dress was neither that of modern Europe nor yet Eastern like my own. It suggested a very inaccurate and ragged version of the costume of Elizabethan England as worn by the humbler sort. But he smoked a cigarette, and she bore aloft a faded Japanese sunshade.

Arriving at the town, I found that it was not West Kirby at all, not the West Kirby that I knew. The natural setting of the place was normal, but man's works were completely unrecognisable. With perfect assurance I walked along the entirely unfamiliar marine parade. The houses were mostly half-timbered, some were even thatched. But others showed unmistakably the influence of Japanese or Chinese culture. There was a "pagoda-ish" look about them. One or two were tall ferro-concrete buildings, whose vast window-space made them appear like crystal palaces. Even these betrayed in their decoration an Asiatic inspiration. It was almost as though China or Japan had been the effective centre of "Americanisation."

The parade was thronged with people of all ages and both sexes, dressed mostly in semi-Asiatic style. In some cases a native English costume had been overlaid with foreign additions, here a Chinese dragoned scarf, there a coloured sunshade. The best dressed women wore what I should describe as silk kimonos; but many of these garments were sleeveless, and none reached to the ankles. They displayed silk stockings of a type that in my own world would be regarded as European and modern, save for their great diversity and brilliance of colouring, One or two of the women, seemingly the bolder, wore very gay silk trousers and sleeveless vests. The loose brocade suits of the men were mostly of more sombre colour. I was surprised to note that many even of the best dressed promenaders had pock-marked faces. I was surprised, too, at the large number of smartly uniformed men, evidently army officers, in Robin Hood green with wide-brimmed hats. On their hips large-hilted cutlasses and neat pistol holsters combined the medieval and the modern.

The language of all these strange people was recognisably English, but of a grotesque and, I judged, a somewhat archaic type. Words of Japanese origin occurred, but not frequently. Most technical words, it seemed, were English translations of Japanese or Chinese originals. On a minute concrete building, which turned out to be a telephone call box, I noticed the phrase "Public Lightning Speaker," and under it in Japanese characters the Japanese word "Denwa."

Motors there were in plenty; but horse-drawn vehicles also, and a number of sedan chairs. Out at sea I saw a small, high-pooped, antique sailing vessel, and on the horizon a great ocean liner, trailing her black smoke.

At a certain point I turned off the Parade and passed along the shop-lined streets. The windows were all veiled for the Sabbath. Many of the large shops displayed Chinese or Japanese signs as well as English ones. I passed a small Asiatic building which I took to be a Buddhist temple. Examining the printed notices displayed at its entrance, I judged that it catered not only for Asiatic visitors but for English converts. My course now led me into the poorer quarter, and I was shocked to note the overcrowding and filth of this part of the town. Swarms of ragged urchins in native English dress played in every gutter. They had an unpleasant tendency to flee as I approached, though a few stood their ground and sullenly touched their forelocks. Many were also rickety, or covered with festering sores. In the heart of this poor district I came upon an old Gothic church. It turned out to be the parish church, and Roman Catholic. A constant stream of the devout, mostly rather shabby, flowed in at one door and out at another.

After a while the streets began to improve, and presently I emerged upon a great avenue bordered by gardens and opulent-looking houses of the sort which I now recognized as both Asiatic and modern.

One of these pocket-mansions was apparently my own, for I entered it without permission. It was a delightful, even a luxurious building, and I reflected that changing my world I had also "gone up in the world."

At the sound of my entry a manservant appeared in a vaguely "Beefeater" kind of livery. Flinging him my bathers and towel, I opened a door out of the entrance hall and went into a sitting room. Before I had time to study it, a woman rose from some cushions on the floor and caught me in her arms.

"Tom! Base Tom," she said, smiling gaily. "'Tis but a month since we wed, and already thou art entarded for thy Sunday dinner! Foolish me to let thee practice thy Asiatic water-vice unkeepered!"

A bachelor, I might have shown some confusion at this reception, but I found myself embracing her with proprietary confidence and zestfully kissing her lips.

"Sweet Betty, let me envisage thee," I said, "to see if thou art worn with pining for me."

So this was my wife, and her name was Betty, and we had been married a month and were evidently still very pleased about it. She was fair, superbly Nordic. Behind the sparkle of her laughing eyes I detected a formidable earnestness. She was tall. Her green silk kimono veiled the contours of an Amazon. As she broke from me and swept through the door, smiling over her shoulder, I wondered how I had ever persuaded such a splendid creature to marry me.

The gong (a Chinese bronze) was sounding for our Sunday dinner. I rushed upstairs to wash, but on the landing I encountered our Japanese guests. He was a slim middle-aged figure in brocade of decent grey. She, much younger, was slight, trousered in deep blue shantung, and vested in crimson. The light was behind her, and I saw almost nothing of her face.

I bowed deeply and began to speak in Japanese. It was rather terrifying to watch the appropriate thoughts emerge in my mind and embody themselves fluently in a language of which I supposed myself to be completely ignorant. "I hope, sir, that you had a successful morning, and that you will not have to leave us again today. We should like to take you to call on some friends who long to meet you." The couple returned my salute, I thought, rather sadly. I was soon to discover that they had reason for gloom.

"Alas," he said, "our experience this morning suggests that we had better not appear in public more than we can help. Since the crisis, your countrymen do not like the Yellows. If you still permit, we will stay with you till my business is done and our ship sails; but for your sakes and our own, it is better that we should not risk further trouble." I was about to protest, but he raised his hand, smiled, and ushered his wife downstairs.

After washing in the tiled and chromium-plated bathroom (the taps screwed the wrong way), I hurried into our bedroom to brush my hair. It was a relief to find that the mirror still showed my familiar face; but whether through the refreshment of the bathe or owing to more enduring causes, I appeared rather healthier and more prosperous than was customary in my other world.

On the dressing table was a newspaper. The bulk of it was written in English, but a few columns and a few advertisements were in Japanese. I vaguely remembered reading it in bed over an early cup of tea. It was called, I think, The Sunday Watchman. I opened it, and discovered on the main page, in huge headlines, "Ultimatum to the Yellow Peoples. Hands off Europe. Britain will defend her allies."

Betty's clear voice bade me hurry, and not be so "special" over my toilet.

When I arrived downstairs, she was explaining to the guests, in her serviceable but rather inaccurate Japanese, that she had again taken them at their word, and ordered a typical English meal for them. "Although," she said, with the faintest emphasis, "we ourselves are now more used to Eastern diet."

It fell to me to carve the roast beef of old England and at the same time to make conversation in Japanese. To judge by the ease with which I combined these actions, both must have been familiar.

Yet every moment of my experience was completely novel and fantastic. With curiosity and yet familiarity my eyes roamed about the room. The dinner service was of China, in both senses. To be in keeping with the affectedly native meal it should have been of pewter or wood. With some amusement I noted our elegant little thin-stemmed, flat-bowled sake cups, of silver, gold-inlaid. These I had bought in Nagasaki on my last visit to the East. Evidently my wife had been unable to resist the temptation of displaying them, though they were quite incongruous in a sample English meal. The furniture was vaguely Tudor, so to speak. On the walls hung painted silks which I knew to be Chinese and Japanese, though some of them were confusingly reminiscent of modernist European art in my other world. I regarded with special pride and affection a tall silken panel on which was very delicately and abstractly suggested a slender waterfall surrounded by autumnal trees. Wreaths of mist or spray veiled the further foliage. Above, and more remote, domes of forest, receding, one behind the other, loomed ghostly through clouds. "Forest on forest hung about his head," I murmured to myself, and wondered whether in my new, strange world Keats had any footing. This much prized panel, this silken forest of copper and gold and pearl grey, I had bought from an artist in Tokyo.

The company was as hybrid as the room. Two English maidservants in mobcaps and laced bodices moved demurely in the background. Opposite me sat my exquisitely English wife, the warm tone of her sunned arms contrasting with the cool parchment-like skin of the Japanese lady. The grave and slightly grizzled Mr. Kawamura was typical (I half guessed it, half remembered) of the finer sort of Japanese man of affairs. He was a "shipping director," which was the Japanese equivalent of a ship owner. That is, he was a civil servant in control of a line of steamers. In Japan, I recollected, all the means of production were now state-owned.

This fact, along with others that cropped up in the course of conversation, made me revise my view of the relation of my new world to my old. I had guessed that the roles of Japan and Britain were simply reversed. But evidently the situation was more complicated that that, for Japan was some sort of socialist state. I was soon to have further evidence of complication.

My intense curiosity about everything, and my anxiety lest my own behaviour should betray me, bid fair to be eclipsed by a third interest, namely the fascination of Mrs. Kawamura's personality. I was at first inclined to think of her as a modernized and world-conscious reincarnation of the Lady Murasaki; but presently I learned that she was in fact a native not of Japan but of China. Though her shining black hair was cut short, and her whole bearing, like her dress, was frankly modern, her features (of old ivory) and also her grave intelligent expression suggested the ancient culture of her race. In spite of her "shingle" and bare arms, she reminded me of a certain very delicate Chinese miniature painter and embroidered on silk. This I had long ago encountered in my other world, and its pale perfect face had become my symbol of all the best in China. Mrs. Kawamura's was this face done large and with an added largeness of spirit. Her heavy eyelids gave her an expression of perpetual meditation. A sweet and subtle mockery played about her eyes and lips. But more particularly I was intrigued by her manner, by the way in which she moved her hands and turned her head. Her whole demeanour reminded me of the action of an artist engaged on some very precise but ample piece of brush-work, so exact it was, yet flowing.

Between the courses Mrs. Kawamura drew a cigarette case from her pochette and asked if it was permitted to smoke at such an early stage in an English meal. Betty, after a minute pause, hastened to say, "Why, of course, in the houses of those who have travelled." Up to this point I had played my part without a single lapse, but now at last I tripped. Automatically I produced a matchbox from my pocket, struck a light, and offered it for her convenience. Mrs. Kawamura hesitated for a moment, looked me in the eyes, glanced at my wife, then smilingly shook her head and used her own cigarette lighter. Betty, I saw, was blushing and trying not to show bewilderment and distress. In a flash it came upon me that in England (of this new world) one did not offer to light a woman's cigarette unless one was very intimate with her. I began to stammer an apology; but Mr. Kawamura saved the situation with a laugh, and said to Betty, "Your husband forgot that he is no longer in Japan, where that action is considered only common politeness." I snatched at this excuse. "Yes," I said, "I grew so used to it. And today I have had too much sun." It was Betty's turn to laugh, as best she could. Lapsing into English, she said, "Thy Oriental ways keep surprising me, Tom, but I expect I shall get used to them." In Japanese she added, "Of course England is rather stupid about some things."

Mrs. Kawamura leaned toward Betty and lightly touched the hand that still nervously crumbled a piece of bread. There was nothing of patronage in the act; or if there was, it was rendered inoffensive by the sincere and rather timid respect of the culture which is already in full and determinate blossom for the culture which has still to unfold. "You English women," she said, "have a great task. You have to see that your men preserve what is best in England while they absorb what is best in the East." Smiling at her husband, she continued, "Men are all such boys. They run after flashy new things and throwaway the well-tried old things. Azuki, there, is much more interested in his new turbo-electric liner than in the incomparable literature of my country." This mischievous sally was evidently well directed, for Mr. Kawamura responded with amiable indignation, asserting his claim to be an amateur of letters, and adding that if no one thought about ships and other practical matters, no one would have leisure to enjoy Chinese literature.

Thus far the talk had avoided the subject which was in all our minds, the international crisis. By common consent we had spoken only of personal matters, of a Kawamura nephew who was studying in Canton and of Betty's young sister, at an Orientalised school in London. But the conversation was now definitely turned to the differences between East and West. Our guests generously praised the courage and enterprise which, within eighty years, had changed Britain from a feudal to a modern industrial community of the first rank. To this I politely replied that we had but copied what Japan's genius had created. For had not the Japanese been the pioneers of mechanical invention and commercial organization during four of the most momentous centuries of human history? "If at the dawn of our era, after Rome's fall, we English had been as great seamen as the Japanese have always been, we might have forestalled you. But though Nordic sea-rovers contributed to our racial stock, we did not preserve their maritime habits. Nor did the continent of Europe." The words slid easily from my lips, but they were startling news to my mind.

Mrs. Kawamura remarked that in the East there was now a strong conviction that commercialism and mechanization had in fact done more harm than good. It had blinded the great majority to all that was most desirable in life. Were not the English now in grave danger of ruining their own admirable native culture in their haste to dominate the world with their new industrial power? "To us," she said, "it seems terrible that, in spite of our tragic example, you should plunge blindly into the modern barbarism and grossness from which we ourselves are only today struggling to escape. And now, just when we are at last finding the beginnings of peace and wisdom and general happiness, when the Chinese nations are at last outgrowing their age-old enmities, when all the Yellow Peoples are becoming reconciled even to the half-European but mellowing culture of Russia, must we be drawn into this terrible quarrel between yourselves and New Nippon? If there is war, how can I ever think of you two dear English people as my enemies?"

At the mention of New Nippon, I remembered with a shock of surprise the great independent Federation which included the whole of North America. This vast community was formerly the most successful of Japan's colonies and had since become the mightiest of all the "Eastern Powers."

"But why," I asked, "should you come in at all? This quarrel is so remote from you. You have no longer any European possessions except Gibraltar, which you are in the very act of selling to us. Your empire has fallen from you, and you are happier without it. Your reduced population makes you far less dependent on foreign trade than formerly. Your traditional championship of the oppressed should induce you to side with us, or at least not against us. And what have you to gain by coming in? Your social conditions are the envy of the East, and of the West also. And though you are politically eclipsed, you share with North China the cultural leadership of the world. War will simply destroy all this. If you come in, you will merely be used as a tool by your more powerful and less civilized kinsmen. But why should there be any question of your coming in?"

"Why indeed?" said Mr. Kawamura. Then, after a pause, "The true reason, I think, is this. Though we have lost our empire we are still bound to it. Our former dominions in South Africa and South Nippon" (by this name I knew he referred to Australia) "and our ally the Maori Kingdom, have a firm hold on us. Such foreign trade as we have (and we do still need foreign trade) is nearly all of it trade with them. Well, some of those former dominions are terribly frightened of your rising power. They have large unoccupied territories; while you and your inseparable allies the Irish are over-crowded. We have long ago learned to control the growth of our population, but you persist in refusing to do so. Inevitably then you must expand. Together with Ireland, and with the support of your European dependencies, you constitute a formidable military power." Here he hesitated. "Your imperialism is at least as ruthless as ours was in the old days. Our former colonies know well that you will attack them sooner or later. Better at once, they say, before you are invincible."

Betty broke in to say, "But surely you see that we must free Europe. I know our policy has often been harsh and provoking. I am not one of those who think we are always right. But this time we must be firm. It's a solemn duty."

"Well," continued Mr. Kawamura, "on the whole you have a pretty strong case; though of course we can't believe you are really going to free Europe. You are going to take over the management of Europe from New Nippon. That is the real aim of your elder statesmen. Anyhow, I personally agree that it is folly for Japan to come into the war. But racial passion has been roused, partly by the propaganda of trade interests in New Nippon, partly by your own press. And your Queen, your great but dangerous Queen, has said things which were bound to enrage the less balanced sections of our public."

"Yes, Azuki," said Mrs. Kawamura. "But surely by now the less balanced sections of our public have very little effect on government action. After all, since our Great Change we are rapidly becoming civilized enough and cosmopolitan enough to laugh at a few cattish insults." She checked herself, smiled deprecatingly at Betty, and proceeded. "No, if our government wanted to keep out, it could. But somehow it seems to lack the courage to do so. I wonder whether New Nippon has some horrible secret financial control over us. Not that we can actually help them much by coming in. But the wealthy caste of New Nippon are inclined to hate us because we have learned the lesson that they cannot bring themselves to learn. They know that war would ruin our modest prosperity and make nonsense of our new, hard-won culture. Might they not bring us in for sheer spite?"

Her husband raised his eyebrows, and said nothing. The dessert was now over, and we moved into our "withdrawing room." Here there was rather more of Japanese influence than in the dining room. The furniture was of lacquer. A great stone or concrete fireplace, however, betrayed the English character of the house.

Tea was served in cups of eggshell china, which Mrs. Kawamura tactfully admired. Betty explained with some self-consciousness that though tea was not included in the orthodox English diet, we had grown very dependent on this most refreshing Oriental drink and could not face the prospect, of doing without it after our Sunday dinner. The habit was indeed rapidly spreading.

Before seating myself I had picked up a large book which I rightly expected to be an atlas. During the ensuing conversation I turned over its pages. I came first on a map of the British Isles. The "Kingdom of Ireland" was coloured green, the Kingdoms of England and Scotland red. Towns, mountains, and rivers mostly bore familiar names. A population map revealed the well-known concentrations around London and in the industrial North, but towns and rural areas were both more populous than in my "other world." Ireland, moreover, contained almost as many people as England, presumably because throughout its history it had developed as an independent community. The total population of the British Isles was over seventy million.

Turning to a map of Europe, I found the northern half of France labelled "Kingdom of France," and coloured red, like Britain. The Netherlands and all the coastlands of the Western Baltic appeared pink and were dubbed "Liberated Nordic Principalities." Pink proved to be the colour of "British Protectorates and Dependencies." Most of these principalities, together with much of Central Europe and Italy, were embraced within a crimson border. Across this vast territory was printed "Holy Roman Empire." This region, and indeed most of Europe, was divided into a mosaic of principalities, duchies, free cities. Scattered around all the coasts of the continent were little patches of yellow, the largest of which included Hamburg. The key gave yellow as "Terrains seized by New Nippon." Large tracts in the Iberian Peninsula, the Balkans, Western Russia, and the eastern marches of the Empire were coloured buff and labelled "War Lords," or "No Settled Government," or "Workers' Councils." The eastern half of Russia bore the legend, "Union of Socialist Conciliar Republics."

A map of the world showed this "Soviet" Union (if I may so translate it) as extending to the Pacific. Its centre of gravity was evidently well to the east, for its capital was a town not far from the Chinese frontier, bearing a Mongolian name unfamiliar to me. China consisted of three great republics. Korea and Manchuria were independent "Empires." India was a congeries of native states. Across the whole subcontinent was printed, "Aryan Peoples Liberated from Japan," with appropriate dates. Many others were coloured with the yellow of; New Nippon. That most formidable of the "Eastern" Powers, which extended from the Arctic to Mexico, was covered with Japanese names. Its capital was a city where San Francisco should have been. In South America, which was cut up into many states, such names as were not native were obviously of Chinese origin. In place of the three great British dominions of the Southern Hemisphere appeared "Nippon in Afric," "South Nippon," and "Maori Kingdom," all of them independent.

While I was still poring over the atlas, the church clock chimed the hour. Betty rose, saying to the guests, "It is almost time for the Queen's speech. I hope you will excuse us if we listen, for it is a solemn duty for all Britons to hear Her Majesty today." The Kawamuras assured her that, though they could not understand English, they would gladly listen to the world-famous voice. Betty thanked them, pressed the switch, and resumed her seat.

The news bulletin was being announced in an intensively cultivated English voice. The language was a kind of English which in my "other world" I should have regarded as a fantastic hybrid of Babu and Elizabethan. Familiar words bore strange yet intelligible meanings, or were piquantly misshapen. As I listened I interjected an occasional sentence of Japanese translation for our guests. If my memory is faithful, what I heard was roughly as follows; but much of the linguistic oddity has escaped me.

In the East End of London, the voice assured us, revulsion was now stilled. The Lord High Sheriff, mindful of the foreign peril, had gripped this homely peril firmly. He was resolved to convince the erring commonalty of that region that they had been abduced by foreign tongue-wielders, and that the witful British people would none of their treason. All good Europeans should be mindful that, though Russia was partly European, the dangerous political thoughts of the Conciliar Union and its emissaries were wholly Asiatic. The Lord Sheriff had therefore encompassed the whole revulsive region in a martial cincture. Two warships in the Thames had cast shell on Poplar and Canning Town, till all the rebel holds were disrupted. Soon after dawn the obsedient troops advanced. Their compressive movement met no repugnance. The rebels abjected their arms, and twelve score ringleaders were enchained. These were judged; and duly hanged, drawn, and quartered, in the presence of a God-thanking crowd. Some thousands of the less outstanding rebels were being concentered in temporary castrations, afield in Essex, to await Her Majesty's pleasure.

After a pause the voice resumed in an awed tone which skillfully suggested suppressed excitement. Listeners, it said, were now to hear the living voice of their Sovereign. When the speaker solemnly commanded all who heard to stand, Betty and I promptly rose to our feet. Our guests, after one bewildered glance, followed suit. In an awed monotone, the announcer proclaimed: "Her Most Pure and Invincible Majesty, Godiva, by the Grace of God, Defender of the Christian Faith, Protector of the Holy Roman Empire, Queen."

After another pause another voice possessed the air, a somewhat husky, but regal, and withal seductive contralto.

"My subjects! My most loyal friends, English and Scottish! And ye, my few but faithful Welsh! All, all whose home is Britain, this demi-paradise, as our immortal Strongbow names it, this insel set in the silver sea. And you, my gallant French! And all my indefatigable Teutons! Others, too, I call; you my loving neighbors in the Green Isle, subjects of my dear cousin Shean. And not only to these I speak, but to all Europeans, of whatever nation and estate. For all, all of us together, are now affronted by this most severe and instant peril. Oh my peoples, all mine in spirit, though not all in title! Our homely differings now slip from us. We remind us only that we are one kin, colleagued together at last against the cunning, the heartless, the lascivious and Godless Yellows."

Such undiplomatic language was startling, even from our outspoken Queen. Explanation was soon to follow.

"It is not long since the last great war obtended its dark bloody wings over our continent. I myself, though scarce in the full bloom of my womanhood," (Betty at this point made a movement of surprise) "even I can remember the victorious geste of British and French hosts against the heroic but miswitting Germans, whom foreign devils had abduced. I can recall well the day, soon after the handfasting of the peace, when I, the child Queen of Britain, was plauded by the rejoyed Parisians and crowned Queen of France, thereby resuming the lapsed title of my forebears. I can remember how the North German lords, who had by then destrued their own traitorous princes, now wishfully and gladly laid their crownlets at my feet, my small ensatined feet."

Here the Queen paused. Mrs. Kawamura took the opportunity of disposing of a lengthy and precarious cigarette ash. Our eyes met. She knew no English, but it seemed that merely through the Queen's vocal demeanour she sensed the essence of the situation. I shall not forget how, when I had signalled mock distress, the noncommittal politeness of her glance was lit by relief and sad amusement.

Her Majesty continued. "Oh, Great White Peoples, since that war, much has happened. Through all those years I have striven to be worthy of the task which the ensworded Christ has set upon me, the delivery of Europe. For let us remind ourselves of well-known truth. In all our churches, our divine and most courageous Captain hangs crossed upon the blade and hilt of the Sword. That same Sword, when he had risen from the dead, he himself grasped, and wields today, leading the Faithful. He came not to bring peace. And I, though till today I have besieged my just aims by parley, am his lieutenant. Though it was by parley and fine machinations that I and my counsellors defted the Japanese from all their treaty ports, it was the springing strength of my army and navy and my aerials that rendered those pacific arguments convictive. But now, today, argument has failed; and I am here to call upon you, all White Peoples, to take arms in earnest. For the hour has come when we must constrain New Nippon to disgorge her rapine, or else betray irrevocably the cause for which we stand together."

Strange, I thought to myself, that only yesterday, before I had my mysterious dream of the other world (for I was beginning to reverse my view as to which world was real and which was fantasy) I might have applauded the Queen's apologia! And there stood Betty, till now my soul's twin, drinking the royal words with no misgiving.

The Queen continued. "I have recently and justly claimed on behalf of the Germans, Hamburg; for the French, Bordeaux; and for the Lambards, Genova. As ye already wit, Europeans, parley having failed, I have been constrained, after close heart-prying, to obdict an ultimatum. But what I shall now tell you, my peoples, will be newspell to you. Prevising clearly the rebutment of that ultimatum, I forestalled the New Nippon retort. I struck. And already, even as I speak they bring me word that Hamburg's defences have been destrued by my brave aerials. A gallant geste, and most enheartening newspell, oh White Peoples! But let us not deceive ourselves. Dire days leap toward us. The whole force of New Nippon and of the Chinese Republic, and haply of Japan also, will be oppugned against us. Nothing can save us now but crazy hardihood."

Again the Queen paused. Betty's large eyes sought mine, but I dared not face them. Mrs. Kawamura's had found diversion in watching a tomtit through the window. Her husband was obviously wondering if he could sit without committing lese majeste.

The royal voice resumed. "Oh men and women of Europe! We shall one and all be stricken by the hugest and most contorturous of wars. The sky will rain fire and poison. Millions shall die. But oh Europeans, let such as die, die singing to the ensworded Christ, whose truth we stand for. Let such as live, live hate fast toward the Yellows, till all the coasts of Europe be purged of these slot-eyed commercers of the East: who suck and squander the natural wealth of our continent; who undo the native toughness of our bodies by teaching us their own soft life; who undo the strength of our souls by logiking that our holy Church is founded on lies, and that our Christ, like their own Buddha, prized gentleness above fortitude. They gave us opium. They have tempted our coupling lovers with filthy lore to prevent the sacred burden of motherhood, hoping thereby to thin our numbers. Women of Europe, consider! In Japan, so little do men prize virtue, that husbands lend out their wives to any guest for the night. And what wives, what women! Painted! Lewdly exhibiting their jaundy breasts, and..."

I sprang to the radio and snapped the switch. "Tom, Tom," cried Betty, gripping my arm. "What ails thee? Her Majesty! If someone should have heard you check her!" Then laughter seized me. Mrs. Kawamura smiled, perplexed, demure. Mists and irrelevant shapes came before my eyes. Still laughing, I woke in my "other world." I was in the horsehair chair by the fireplace in my lodging-house sitting room. My landlady, who was clearing away my Sunday dinner, was laughing too, apparently at something I had said or done, for she now remarked, "Well, you are a queer one!" The lace curtains fluttered by the open window. In the garden my "bather" and towel were swinging on the clothesline.
East is West by B_Munro said:
This one is based on a short AH story by Olaf Stapledon, (of "Star Maker" and "Last and First Men" fame) called, IIRC, East is West. In it China breaks up in the Middle Ages and stays divided, while the German Emperors succeed in their goal of uniting western Christendom and subordinating the Popes. By the 20th century a sort of mirror image world has come into existence, where the eastern nations are the modern industrial powers, while the west is dominated by a decaying and turbulent Europe-spanning Empire.

Not having as seriously annoying a Steppe experience as OTL China, the Holy Roman Empire is ruled by a Germanic dynasty with enough local legitimacy that they are still theoretically in charge, although competing revolutionary and separatist groups are stirring up trouble. Planning to use this as an excuse to intervene is the Empire of Britannia, which thanks to its rich industrial resources and strongly centralized government, has managed to modernize like Japan in our world.

The HRE is still struggling to make it out of the 16th century, although there are some hopeful shoots of industrialization here and there. It is heavily Germanized, German dialects being spoken in what our world would be Poland, the Baltic, Venetia, northern France, the Czech republic, and parts of the Ukraine: Latin remains important in Lombardy and the south and west of France. It suffers from severe overpopulation, imports of American food plants by the Asians having brought about a population boom over the last three centuries.

Although the unified Christian Empire managed to do better than OTLs Crusaders, and managed to establish its rule over Egypt, the Holy Land, and much of North Africa, Muslims rallied and were well on their way to driving the Europeans back across the Mediterranean when the Asians put their oar in in the 19th century and to some extents froze things.

Russia, cut off from a hostile Imperial Caesaropapist west and indeed more than once threatened by conquest from it, looked east for civilization and modernity, although retaining their Christianity. “Scratch a Russian and find a Tatar” is truer here than OTL: the Russians became a steppe empire in their own right. (Although there have been some badass pastoralist empires in this TL, there hasn’t been anything quite as apocalyptic as Genghis Khan and Co., so Russia advanced east earlier than OTL). Russians continued to wear robes, did not shave their beards, and studied the works of Kong Fu Tzu (and the many non-OTL glosses on his work). After the revolution brought about by the bloody but inconclusive War of Six Directions (in which Wei lost its colonies) the new government adapted a socialistic regime based on the ideas of Asian philosophers.

The Khanate of Ind, a Mughal-equivalent Islamic empire, is struggling to modernize and keep at bay the Asian powers nipping at its flanks: it is looked upon with some disdain by the major Asian powers, who consider it the Sick Man of Asia.

The Americas or Dawn Lands (Japan is still the Land of the Rising Sun, but the Americas are observably further east) are mostly independent nowadays, the south Chinese and Vietnamese and Nihonese colonies having broken away in previous centuries. Being inconvenient to reach and mostly unpromising jungle and grassland and backwards tribes, the eastern bits were colonized later than OTL: the Nihonese “Brazilian” colony is less populous than OTL Brazil at the time (the Nihonese finally had to use convict labor to get the first settlements going… )

The Kingdom of Dali and Viet played a major role in the early era of overseas exploration and colonization, but has in the last couple centuries declined, being considered nowadays backwards and downright reactionary. Qi and Nihon are long-standing rivals for power in Asia and abroad, while Hubaekje remains a major commercial power. They have kissed and made up due to the rise of Great Wei since the Unification of the Three Northern Kingdoms, and even after the peace of exhaustion in the last war, Wei does not seem reconciled to being merely the first among equals. Now under an extremist neo-legalist regime, it has allied to land-locked (and therefore discontented) Shu and the barbaric but industrialized and regionally powerful Britannians in what seems to be an effort to overthrow the balance of power for good.

Nihon is a power in relative decline, in spite of its still extensive Empire. Its colonies in OTL South Africa, Australia and New Zealand are flourishing, but are also increasingly independent-minded. Nihon perhaps never got over the loss of its Dawn Land colonies, which have since expanded eastwards to become the world’s largest industrial power. Compared to OTLs US, North America is more densely populated in the west and less so in the East: the major surviving Indian populations and tribal lands are in the east rather than the west, having had more time to recover from epidemics before Nihonese settlers arrived, while most tribes west of the Mississippi have been rather thoroughly assimilated. It also has a sizeable European component in the NE, Scandinavian fishermen exploiting the Grand Banks having eventually established settlements after the local tribes were decimated by plagues and before the Nihonese took much interest in that cold, stony-soiled land. Currently the big question is whether the US of the Dawn Lands will interfere in the war many are sure is coming…

PS - do not pester me with questions about which Asian nation stands for which European one. I went further with the "mirroring" than Olaf did in his story filling in the details he didn't describe, but it simply isn't possible to do a 1-1 matching...

d3bdhf4-502d5e7d-56c0-4af4-9420-affef8da3cc1.png
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
A cool idea originally from an Olaf Stapledon short story, although B_Munro later made a map of it. What if the Chinese empire of the middle ages broke up into competing nation-states while the Holy Roman Empire managed to actually unify Europe?

The EU is a present-day proto-European nation-state, no? Albeit much more of a confederation than a federation.

As for China, it would be cool to see all of its different linguistic groups get their own state:

Map_of_sinitic_languages_full-en.svg


An independent Wenzhounese state would, of course, be really epic:

 

Buba

A total creep
An ASB scenario on AH-com made me giggle
- on 28.VII.1914 Belgium and Serbia get ISOTed to a Happy! Place,
leaving behind a lake, the latter and the former - DRUMROLL - a bay with a coast of gentle cliffs.
I giggled imagining the reaction in the UK of Germany can into North Sea opposite of London ...

Giving this idea more thought that it deserves, I wondered if Lake Serbia - and thus the Danube - drains not into the Black Sea, but into the Aegan through the Vardar.
Looking at elevations the river enters Bulgaria at some 35m asl, whereas the best data I found for the Vardar suggests that it enters Greece at c. 60m asl (maybe somebody can confirm or disaprove that?). So no change, drainage is as before. But maybe a canal could be dug ... :p

IMO leaving behind virgin earth (i.e. a forest like back in 10,000 BC) would have had the same "invasion derailing" effect.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
An ASB scenario on AH-com made me giggle
- on 28.VII.1914 Belgium and Serbia get ISOTed to a Happy! Place,
leaving behind a lake, the latter and the former - DRUMROLL - a bay with a coast of gentle cliffs.
I giggled imagining the reaction in the UK of Germany can into North Sea opposite of London ...

Giving this idea more thought that it deserves, I wondered if Lake Serbia - and thus the Danube - drains not into the Black Sea, but into the Aegan through the Vardar.
Looking at elevations the river enters Bulgaria at some 35m asl, whereas the best data I found for the Vardar suggests that it enters Greece at c. 60m asl (maybe somebody can confirm or disaprove that?). So no change, drainage is as before. But maybe a canal could be dug ... :p

IMO leaving behind virgin earth (i.e. a forest like back in 10,000 BC) would have had the same "invasion derailing" effect.

Made it 50.000 BC,so they could meet Neanderthals.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
‘ATL Countries With A Billion (Or More) People’.

Preferably via extremely high native birth rates, but conquest and unification are also acceptable. (e.g.: An ascendant Tsarist Russia absorbing Northern China, or United Europe materializing somehow.) ATL versions of China or India that are even more populated, however, are probably cop-outs here.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
‘ATL Countries With A Billion (Or More) People’.

Preferably via extremely high native birth rates, but conquest and unification are also acceptable. (e.g.: An ascendant Tsarist Russia absorbing Northern China, or United Europe materializing somehow.) ATL versions of China or India that are even more populated, however, are probably cop-outs here.

Just wait for Russia's breeders to become a sufficiently large percentage of its total population and thus for its demographic transition to be reversed. That should eventually get you to one billion Russians.

The same thing could also eventually work for the US.
 
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WolfBear

Well-known member
Just wait for Russia's breeders to become a sufficiently large percentage of its total population and thus for its demographic transition to be reversed. That should eventually get you to one billion Russians.

The same thing could also work for the US.

This is based on an actual academic article, BTW:


You might be able to find the full text of this article for free on LibGen, @Zyobot.
 

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